"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Kanassa
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:58 am

Really, I think this arc would have been much better if you just cut the first two chapters. Start on Namek, Goku and Vegeta are there for whatever reason. They run into Moro as he's hunting down Dragon Balls, they fight with him, his abilities and motivations being a mystery because this isn't precluded by a boring exposition dump, making the point where he drains the p[lanets energy and uses it against Vegeta actually have some sort of impact. Goku and Vegeta get blindsided by this, Moro gets his wish and then escapes. He's instantly set up as dangerous with an air of mystery, especially when Jaco and Merus arrive shortly to explain that they were chasing down Moro after he escaped his cell and that they need Buu. This also stops making Goku and Vegeta hold the idiot ball harder than their Cell Arc selves because they don't have any information that would make Moro's abilities and motives extremely obvious.
AnimeNation101 wrote:I personally love what XV1 and the Cell Saga did by having villains that ended up being red herrings for the true villain.
Ah, you thought it was Sexy Goat Man, but it was actually Sexy Goat Woman!
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:22 am

I wonder if Moro is pulling it out or sucking out power.

Like would CSSB be immune because it's being activly held in, there's no 'thread' for him to grab and pull on?

I thought he might only absorb god ki from mortals or something, this would remove the whole "get beerus to hande everything" and make humans/piccolo/ss3/fusion relavent. But Vegeta can't even go regular super saiyan it seems.

So I'm not sure where they are taking this... I don't see how they can beat him
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:24 am

Bullza wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I agree that this arc is feeling like the 90's Z movies though, for better or worse.
Yeah that's about right. This all feels like a manga adaptation of a non canon movie or something.

Honestly the story concepts they've been coming up with for Dragon Ball Heroes with the Prison Planet and this group out to kill Zeno are actually far more interesting than what they've come up with here.
There's a manga adaption of that too. I like having both! We get two monthly doses of Dragonball instead of one!
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:36 am

TobyS wrote:
So I'm not sure where they are taking this... I don't see how they can beat him
If only we had Android who probably can't have their energy drained since it's not like the Ki everyone else has
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:30 am

Overall this chapter was weak. Felt too formulaic in a bad sense for me and lacking inspiration in it's formula.

The Bad:
The chapter felt unnecessary for most of it. The scope of Moro's energy draining technique is new information but all this to show it? It wasn't needed, it's like the chapter forced itself to end on a cliffhanger which resulted in a dragged chapter.
Vegeta returning to base before finishing Moro felt like plot-induced stupidity just to set up the final sequence.
Moro's fighting style being unimaginative.

The Good:
Moro's ability is extremely overpowered, it offers a new challenge to Goku and Vegeta. That's something interesting to look forward, there's a bunch of ways they can go about it.
Moro maintaining his calm, his wise old man persona is so far being maintained.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:10 am

Bullza wrote:Honestly the story concepts they've been coming up with for Dragon Ball Heroes with the Prison Planet and this group out to kill Zeno are actually far more interesting than what they've come up with here.
No doubt about that. Still, I gotta give some props to Toyotaro for actually trying to come up with something different instead of wasting time with crap retelling or tournament. It's just another chapter without the Galactic Patrol trying to bring back Dai Kaioshin, or using Majin Buu in the fray, contributing to something somehow, so it's becoming another Goku and Vegeta show and no one else can apparently do something. We shall wait a little longer, let's see how this play out. Still waiting for more Dai Kaioshin lore and probably his return.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:27 am

Grimlock wrote: No doubt about that. Still, I gotta give some props to Toyotaro for actually trying to come up with something different instead of wasting time with crap retelling or tournament.
Yeah, at least Toyo is trying something different by rehashing previous ideas without any of their creativity... Wait.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:31 am

The story concept for SDBH are splendid. Problem is the execution leaves much to be desired for me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:48 am

Kanassa wrote: Ah, you thought it was Sexy Goat Man, but it was actually Sexy Goat Woman!
Was that a JoJo Reference?

Anyway outside of enjoying the chapter like I usually do I found it a little fun that Goku considered attacking Moro before he finished powering up. Almost as if Android 17 rubbed off on him little. Beyond that Vegeta's play was smart. Although at this rate I guess its good, how we might really see the Supreme Dai Kaio Shin.

Also the fact that the unnamed soilder's name is
Cranberry instead of Rhasberry made me laugh. Same character or not, liscensing reasons or whatever, I think that was very well played.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Kinokima wrote:The story concept for SDBH are splendid. Problem is the execution leaves much to be desired for me.
I disagree. You see Toyotaro getting badmouthed for his ideas feeling like fanfiction (I guess it doesn't help that he was associated with AF at one point) but this "rebellion against the gods" tripe in Heroes has actually been in people's fanfiction. It's the most predictable, generic follow-up you could possibly have to the Universe Survival arc.

Conversely, stuff using the Galactic Patrol, ancient evil space wizards and the Dai Kaioshin actually is a pretty good opportunity to delve more into the franchise's worldbuilding. The story concept behind this current arc in the manga is great, it's just the execution that kind of sucks.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:41 pm

Miracles wrote: As for the discussion about the different forms/power ups between anime and manga. They don't matter since Toriyama doesn't acknowledge them
I don’t get it when people say this. The forms from the anime and manga DO matter because the 2 ways we get the story are through the manga and the anime. Toriyama may write the outlines with no transformations but the outlines aren’t a main source from which we consume the story content. We’ve never EVEN SEEN them before. What we get are the finished products from the manga and anime. And since THEY have transformations, the transformations and matter enough to be discussed like so.

Thats my opinion anyway.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Kinokima wrote:The story concept for SDBH are splendid. Problem is the execution leaves much to be desired for me.
Agreed.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:01 pm

Kinokima wrote:The story concept for SDBH are splendid. Problem is the execution leaves much to be desired for me.
Yeah but that isn't really much their fault, they only have a small amount of 8 minute long episodes or a 1 minute long game opening. So you couldn't expect too much.

But the Prison Planet Saga had a good idea, having a bunch of different fighters from different worlds and eras brought there with them forced to fight and collect Dragon Balls so that they can escape. The Universe Conflict Saga involves a group of antagonists, they want to kill Zeno, there's this Universe seed, Vegeta and Trunks went to Planet Sadala to help those in Universe 6, Hit, Kefla, Jiren etc are involved.

And then you've got this Saga where they join the Galactic Patrol to help them stop a dangerous criminal is really just a rip off of what Heroes already did by having them join the Time Patrol to help stop dangerous criminals.

And Moro is another old antagonist from the past who wants to wish for his strength back is also a rip off of what Heroes already did with Mechikabura.

So really it's just a less interesting version of what Heroes has already done.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:17 pm

Well everything comes from somewhere Heroes for example is a duplicate of Dragon Ball Online. Anyway personally I think Toyotaro should take a break study manga under Araki, and Oda for a month then come back and finish a collaboration with Toriyama. Imagine a JoJo esk villian done with the creativity of One Piece and main feel of Dragon Ball. Now that's a good story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gligarman » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:21 pm

Given the Namek setting and the elderly villain who longs for his prime, it'd almost like Moro is basically the new Piccolo Daimao.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:54 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: this "rebellion against the gods" tripe in Heroes has actually been in people's fanfiction. It's the most predictable, generic follow-up you could possibly have to the Universe Survival arc.
I agree 100%.

Dragonball Heroes is every edgy teenager's Dragonball fantasies come to life. Gaudy designs, everyone gets transformations, red and black color schemes everywhere, recycled nostalgia plot points, etc.

It is truly a microcosm of everything I hated about this franchise post-End of Z. Dragonball Heroes is so not-Dragonball to me that I don't even react when I see them doing their stupid stuff. I can't drum up enough interest in Dragonball Heroes to ever even begin to critique it.

Fans saying Heroes is good in terms of story is what I can and will criticize though. Because it isn't. At all.
Son Dragon wrote:Well everything comes from somewhere Heroes for example is a duplicate of Dragon Ball Online. Anyway personally I think Toyotaro should take a break study manga under Araki, and Oda for a month then come back and finish a collaboration with Toriyama. Imagine a JoJo esk villian done with the creativity of One Piece and main feel of Dragon Ball. Now that's a good story.
So many awful no-good very bad atrocious takes in this thread.

I couldn't disagree with you more if I goddamn tried.

Oda is Dragonball-lite. Araki is complete nonsense, but nonsense that came so early that it's now ingrained in Japanese pop culture to the point where all he has to do is be self-referential.

Toyotaro is under the best learning tree possible for Dragonball: Toriyama.
AnimeNation101 wrote: 1. This SSBE knock off that Vegeta unlocks in the T.o.P and the SSBKK knock off that Goku uses in the T.o.P are both established to be more powerful forms than Completed SSB. So CSSB aint the pinnicle anymore and that doesn’t make sense

2. The main gimmick of CSSB is that you don’t let your ki leak, both the SSBE and SSBKK knock offs let ki leak. Yet they’re both superior in power and speed.

These knock off forms are completely contradict CSSB. Which sucks because I'm actually fine with CSSB. Its a cool concept. But these knock offs are just examples of Toyo being difficult and making things more confusing to follow whilst contradicting himself. Not to mention the knock off of SSBKK has no explanation of its origins. It just comes out of nowhere as something that SSB can apparently do.
Transformations are character beats that mark a milestone a character has reached. But too many transformations and you run the risk of transformations mattering more than character. There's a reason I put this reply as the last thing in this post: for too long Dragonball media has relied on transformations to inform character.

Before Toriyama came back to the franchise, the biggest selling point for Dragonball media was "And now X character can turn Super Saiyan 3/4!" And that was it.

Toei is still doing that. They gave Goku and irrelevant powerup in SSBK, and then in the 11th hour of the Tournament of Power, they randomly gave Vegeta a powerup to match SSBK.

Now let's double back to the manga. In the manga, it's established that even though they achieved new heights with Blue, there was still a plateau that they haven't conquered. The Tournament of Power was dedicated to Goku and Vegeta passing that barrier.

The answer both characters came up with essentially came down to "be true to yourself". Forcing out power and bulking/veining up isn't Goku's forté; martial arts is, so he went back to his martial arts roots. Being taught by masters isn't what brought Vegeta to the stage either, so he went back to his roots of being a proud saiyan warrior.

Do you see the point? These are characters transforming, and not transformations of characters. For Vegeta, it was his Blue Form getting a fiery aura, which reflects his general disposition. For Goku, it was the very calm and go-with-the-flow Ultra Instinct, which also reflects Goku's disposition.

That's what makes the manga's concepts better than the rest of Dragonball media. Transformations only happen as a result of character growth (note: not power level growth).

Why is this relevant to SSBK and SSBE? The answer is simple. When you have so many different transformations, it makes the character growth muddled and hard to track, but by keeping Blue relevant, and slightly tweaking it, you present a pretty clear picture of the character's advancement.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:05 pm

Kanassa wrote:Yeah, at least Toyo is trying something different by rehashing previous ideas without any of their creativity... Wait.
I can't tell if you are halfway agreeing or disagreeing. But "trying" is something we should admit at least.
Kinokima wrote:The story concept for SDBH are splendid. Problem is the execution leaves much to be desired for me.
How the execution "leaves much to be desired" in the manga and the arcade?
TKA wrote:Fans saying Heroes is good in terms of story is what I can and will criticize though. Because it isn't. At all.
It isn't, what is good story though? Tournaments?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:09 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Miracles wrote: As for the discussion about the different forms/power ups between anime and manga. They don't matter since Toriyama doesn't acknowledge them
I don’t get it when people say this. The forms from the anime and manga DO matter because the 2 ways we get the story are through the manga and the anime. Toriyama may write the outlines with no transformations but the outlines aren’t a main source from which we consume the story content. We’ve never EVEN SEEN them before. What we get are the finished products from the manga and anime. And since THEY have transformations, the transformations and matter enough to be discussed like so.

Thats my opinion anyway.
Well yeah, of course the transformations matter as far as TOEI's and Toyataro's views of Super. However when the author puts out something, that's the real story of Super.

BTW, did anyone else get the feeling, Vegeta's dodging scene kind of mimics TOEI's UI Goku skating through Jiren's attacks?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:12 pm

Tournaments have always been the best arcs in Dragon Ball. The fact Grimlock is shitting on them is everything you need to know about how relevant his opinion is. The 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais are better than Online's shit. The Tournament of Power shits all over the Prison Planet arc. Zamasu alone is better than anything out of the Dark Dragon Balls arc. Get real.

Throwing out "TURNMENTZ GOOD? BLEARGH" is laughable
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:32 pm

TKA wrote: So many awful no-good very bad atrocious takes in this thread.I couldn't disagree with you more if I goddamn tried. Oda is Dragonball-lite. Araki is complete nonsense, but nonsense that came so early that it's now ingrained in Japanese pop culture to the point where all he has to do is be self-referential. Toyotaro is under the best learning tree possible for Dragonball: Toriyama.
Well we can always agree to disagree. What makes Araki's villians so fantastic are build up to their characters and the power ups they recieve throughout the arc. Kira specifically was character who started off reletively simpler and grew more complex as his powers expanded. A power that with how well it was written help the viewer feel a great sense of danger for the heroes whenever they encountered it. Much like in Death Note or the parts of the Cell Saga, the opponent is crafty, it takes strategy and a bit of luck to defeat them, like there's a time limit but our heroes are running out. In addition with One Piece Oda's creativity with the powers of the character he invents, the attention to detail about the world he's creating and the forshadowing and follow up he includes is really admirable. Both authors who are doing things that I felt was a little more present inside different times throughout Dragon Ball. Which is ironically what I'm thinking might happen with Moro. Still though to each their own.

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