"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Random thoughts, not really a review:

1. I sorta see what Toyotaro is going for with the "evolution of power" theme among the three Saiyans:
-Gohan says he chooses to evolve as an Earthling. He doesn't bother with any forms and just levels up in his Ultimate base, with help from technology (e.g. the gravity chamber).
-Vegeta is a warrior above all, so he chooses to evolve as a Saiyan. He shoots his battle power way up with a powerful display of emotion, an apparently new form, and a flashy aura, in true Saiyan fashion.
-Goku gains UI by remembering the lessons of all his previous masters. He evolves as a martial artist, something Vegeta admits doesn't suit him (he's never been formally trained in martial arts).

2. Dyspo being unable to make that jump comes off as really weird. Did I miss a line of dialogue in an earlier scene that said they were all fighting under x1,000,000,000 gravity or something? Because this really should take an absolutely tiny amount of energy when their bodies contain the power to blow away solar systems and galaxies. No-names were leaping above cloud cover back at the Tenkaichi Budokais.

3. Jiren did literally nothing wrong this chapter; Toppo and Dyspo were far too weakened to be any of use, so bringing them back in just would have caused unnecessary pain. I'm not sure if the author intended that.

4. Jiren in general continues to handily outdo his anime counterpart, even if there's still not much to him. I liked him subtly taking offense at Vegeta insinuating he wasn't a true warrior and doesn't know what it's like to fight life-or-death battles; Vegeta was wrong about him, of course, because he thought Jiren was like Freeza or his men or the Androids or a lot of other guys he fought. Jiren's calm beatdown of Vegeta afterwards and lecture were nice and got the point across. His small compliment to Vegeta and comment about 17's "death" being a distasteful waste of life were good little beats too.

5. Is full power Jiren traced from Buff Cell/100% Freeza or is that just a generic power-up pose? I swear I've seen it before.

6. In general, the art has been noticeably getting worse ever since the Zamasu arc, and it was never amazing to begin with. I wonder, is Toyotaro just lazy? Is he rushing? Is the drop in quality the result of Toriyama doing fewer corrections due to being busy with the new movie?

[TheUltimateNinja]

That was because his body was destroyed. These guys are just exhausted.

If I can clear a 2 m gap like it's child's play when I'm fresh, then get beaten up to the point where I can barely move, do you think I'd still be able to clear the same 2 m gap to save my life? Not even a snowball's chance in hell.

That is exactly what went on with Toppo and Dyspo.

Tao was able to throw a pillar that weighed many times more than a human 2,300 km back in DB. These guys would have to end up at 0.0001% (No, I'm not referring to battle power) of Tao for this to happen which is just absurd. A real human would be dead long before they even come close to being that weakened so I don't know why you're bringing real life into this.

Also, neither Toppo nor Dyspo got beaten up that badly, especially not Dyspo. This just makes them look completely pathetic.

And before you say I shouldn't take numbers too seriously or whatever, they're not even relevant. It's completely absurd that a near-GoD level fighter gets so gassed from a short fight that he'd job to random human martial artists.

This would have been so easy to fix, Freeza could have just crippled them to have this make sense.

[Doctor.]

Done respectfully? Since when have all the sub-antagonists received respectful ends or moments that have as much of an impact as the finisher for the finale boss since Z? You sure you read the proper manga?

• Nappa? Got humiliated by Goku and erased by Vegeta for being trash.
• Ginyu? Ended up in a frog's body after not being able to use Goku's body properly. Wholly humiliated by Krillin to boot.
• King Cold? Treated as an afterthought to F. Trunks after humiliating Frieza far worse than Goku ever did.
• No. 19? Ran away like a little bitch from Vegeta. Dr. Gero? Played by and sacked by 17.
• Dabura? Immediately wasted by Buu. Didn't even finish his battle with Gohan, hell didn't even get a proper one either.

You're just proving yourself wrong by bringing these examples up. In all of these, the defeat is highlighted as a big deal. Nappa? Everyone is shocked by Goku's power. Ginyu? They can finally take a breather. Cold, 19, Dabura? Same as Nappa, it highlights the character's power. Every defeat is handled with weight because 1. those characters were actually treated as opponents and not ignored, and 2. characters actually react to the characters being defeated. Toppo? Swatted aside as Vegeta powers-up and nobody really gives a shit. The defeat isn't given the time to have any impact because Vegeta moves immediately to fight Jiren. The moments had impact because they were given time to breathe before moving on to the next part of the plot; they weren't overshadowed by anything else going on at the same time like it happens here. The big moment here isn't Toppo's defeat, it's Vegeta attacking Jiren. That's the problem. You could have had both if you had just treated Toppp's defeat with a bit more severity and let the moment sink in, but instead it's treated as irrelevant and immediately overshadowed by what comes after.

I don't compare the DBS manga to the DBS anime in terms of how it was executed like you. That is the wrong way to go about it, Toyo isn't trying to beat the anime or look to win these stupid anime vs manga "which did it better?" debates. I look at it from a storytelling perspective based on the original manga, of which it serves as the sequel.

Oh shit, dude. If I compared Toyotaro to the original manga, then trust me, I would be here complaining much more often because he does literally nothing as well as the original manga did.

The reason I bring up the anime, as explained above, is because it's an immediate alternative to the same scene. If a scene is done better in the anime, then you can use it as an example for how the manga could have done it better. I'm not interested in the overall debate of which product is better in general, because as I said a billion times in this thread before, and I'm getting sick of repeating myself, they. are. both. garbage.

Of course, all fans see are power levels and battles so I'm not surprised why you'd complain about things that never mattered to DB from a storytelling perspective in the first place.

I keep saying it's an issue with the way the scene is presented, not muh powerlevuls, and said Vegeta one-shotting Toppo would be fine if presented well; for starters, how about he actually punched him? Or better yet, if you really wanna go the route of "Vegeta is so powerful he knocks out Toppo with his aura" then how about he does that, but this time, crazy thought, he actually intends to do it rather than doing it simply because he got mad at that darn Kakarot again and knocked off Toppo as a side-effect of his charge at Jiren? And people actually react to such a powerful character being swatted aside like fodder?

More importantly, how about you actually read what I'm saying instead of projecting bullshit onto my posts? There's nothing more that I hate than someone who has been here a few months and thinks they know all about a member who has been here for years and has over 10k posts because they read a couple of posts on one subject in the same thread.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I remember several months ago a few of us were complaining about how the stronger characters would logically be able to blow out the weaker ones with a simple aura flare. Didn't expect that to happen to Toppo of all people, and from Vegeta at that. The whole thing has gotten even more nonsensical now, I wonder where the people who said it'd take a huge amount of stamina are, I don't see Vegeta going "Fuck, I can't fight Jiren because I used up all my stamina doing that to Toppo."

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

I remember several months ago a few of us were complaining about how the stronger characters would logically be able to blow out the weaker ones with a simple aura flare. Didn't expect that to happen to Toppo of all people, and from Vegeta at that. The whole thing has gotten even more nonsensical now, I wonder where the people who said it'd take a huge amount of stamina are, I don't see Vegeta going "Fuck, I can't fight Jiren because I used up all my stamina doing that to Toppo."

It took a huge amount stamina to just use aura flare? Havent heard that one before

[Saiga]

3. Jiren did literally nothing wrong this chapter; Toppo and Dyspo were far too weakened to be any of use, so bringing them back in just would have caused unnecessary pain. I'm not sure if the author intended that.

At first, I was going to agree with this. I could buy Toppo and Dyspo being too weakened to clear the gap, but the consequence of that would be that they're also too weak to help Jiren at all and therefore don't matter.

However, they don't actually need to help Jiren. If they stayed in the ring while he dealt with the others, that's two less people Jiren needs to ring out before the time limit is up.

Looking at the anime's conclusion, if Dyspo and Toppo hid in the ring while everyone gave their all against Jiren, culminating in Goku & Freeza tackling Jiren out of the ring... time runs out, Universe 11 have two members and Universe 7 only has one. This idea requires everyone be so busy with Jiren that they can't spare the time to knock out Dyspo and Toppo, but that's a similar concession to Jiren just not immediately knocking the remaining fighters out.

By abandoning them, he has committed himself to taking out all of the remaining fighters. Which works fine with his belief that it's an inevitable outcome anyway, but that will ultimately backfire on him.

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

3. Jiren did literally nothing wrong this chapter; Toppo and Dyspo were far too weakened to be any of use, so bringing them back in just would have caused unnecessary pain. I'm not sure if the author intended that.

At first, I was going to agree with this. I could buy Toppo and Dyspo being too weakened to clear the gap, but the consequence of that would be that they're also too weak to help Jiren at all and therefore don't matter.

However, they don't actually need to help Jiren. If they stayed in the ring while he dealt with the others, that's two less people Jiren needs to ring out before the time limit is up.

Looking at the anime's conclusion, if Dyspo and Toppo hid in the ring while everyone gave their all against Jiren, culminating in Goku & Freeza tackling Jiren out of the ring... time runs out, Universe 11 have two members and Universe 7 only has one. This idea requires everyone be so busy with Jiren that they can't spare the time to knock out Dyspo and Toppo, but that's a similar concession to Jiren just not immediately knocking the remaining fighters out.

By abandoning them, he has committed himself to taking out all of the remaining fighters. Which works fine with his belief that it's an inevitable outcome anyway, but that will ultimately backfire on him.

Its not like there was any time to save them, that little platform they stood on just crumbled away just a mere second after they finished talking, it would be a huge risk to JIren if he leaps forward into the air and the platform is just not there anymore, and all three gets eliminated. It would be a funny way to end ToP thats for sure.

[Bergamo]

3. Jiren did literally nothing wrong this chapter; Toppo and Dyspo were far too weakened to be any of use, so bringing them back in just would have caused unnecessary pain. I'm not sure if the author intended that.

At first, I was going to agree with this. I could buy Toppo and Dyspo being too weakened to clear the gap, but the consequence of that would be that they're also too weak to help Jiren at all and therefore don't matter.

However, they don't actually need to help Jiren. If they stayed in the ring while he dealt with the others, that's two less people Jiren needs to ring out before the time limit is up.

Looking at the anime's conclusion, if Dyspo and Toppo hid in the ring while everyone gave their all against Jiren, culminating in Goku & Freeza tackling Jiren out of the ring... time runs out, Universe 11 have two members and Universe 7 only has one. This idea requires everyone be so busy with Jiren that they can't spare the time to knock out Dyspo and Toppo, but that's a similar concession to Jiren just not immediately knocking the remaining fighters out.

By abandoning them, he has committed himself to taking out all of the remaining fighters. Which works fine with his belief that it's an inevitable outcome anyway, but that will ultimately backfire on him.

Its not like there was any time to save them, that little platform they stood on just crumbled away just a mere second after they finished talking, it would be a huge risk to JIren if he leaps forward into the air and the platform is just not there anymore, and all three gets eliminated. It would be a funny way to end ToP thats for sure.

Jiren is also Jiren, so I doubt clearing that gab and getting back in time would be a problem for him.

[Rakurai]

Tao was able to throw a pillar that weighed many times more than a human 2,300 km back in DB. These guys would have to end up at 0.0001% (No, I'm not referring to battle power) of Tao for this to happen which is just absurd. A real human would be dead long before they even come close to being that weakened so I don't know why you're bringing real life into this.

Also, neither Toppo nor Dyspo got beaten up that badly, especially not Dyspo. This just makes them look completely pathetic.

And before you say I shouldn't take numbers too seriously or whatever, they're not even relevant. It's completely absurd that a near-GoD level fighter gets so gassed from a short fight that he'd job to random human martial artists.

This would have been so easy to fix, Freeza could have just crippled them to have this make sense.

I gave you a real life example so as to make an analogy with their situation. This is not an entirely fictional situation either, it's a stamina/damage issue which is all too applicable in real life, especially in a setting where they cannot rely on flight.

Not to sound rude, but who are you to determine how tired/damaged Toppo and Dyspo were to not be able to make that gap? Toppo was smacked around by Frieza after a hard battle with Vegeta; Dyspo probably in a similar condition after fighting with 17 after being smacked around by Kefla. If the story presents it like that, then you simply underestimate the extent of their battle damage/fatigue.

And worse if you're still making dumb comparisons with regards to battle power/power levels like "Oh Tao Pai Pai was able to do this so Toppo/Dyspo even at 0.0000000001% should still be able to since they're SSJ2/GoD tier." This is not a video game where as long as you have some HP, or based on some numerical stats, you can still perform feats as if you were normal until it drops to zero. This is not how DB works in general, these are characters who still have physical limitations or otherwise you might as well complain at Gohan not being able to catch a Potara ring because he could perceive FTL movements or Vegeta not being able to get out of the way of the Spirit bomb meant at kid Buu because he should at least be able to jump 100000 m even at 0.0001% condition since that should "theoretically" remain greater than Tao Pai Pai.

[kemuri07]

basically this chapter:

Vegeta: VEGETA, YES!!!!
Jiren: sigh. No, Vegeta--just no. *smack*

It's not as strong a chapter as the previous one, but, like everything else in the manga, is far superior to the anime.

1. No Vegeta randomly getting his bullshit "ROYAL BLUE" powerup. Yeah, Vegeta gets marginally stronger here, but it's due to typical KAKAROT!! shenanigans that we've seen from him time and time again.
2. Also, no Toppo randomly deciding to be a God of Destruction which only served to prolong his fight in the anime. He doesnt' get no badass sendoff here, but his exit works as a way to show how ruthless Jiren is.

To respond to Doctor and some others here that this whole arc has been anti-climactic, I'll argue that the manga's handeling of the tournament is superior precisely because the brisk pacing lends more urgency and the idea that no one is really safe (AND YES I'M SAYING THIS FULL WELL THAT EVEN HERE THERE'S NO WAY GOKU OR VEGETA ARE GETTING KNOCKED OUT YET) as opposed to the anime dragging on just so that each and every character gets an episode or two for their "moment," so fanboys will be happy. There is no reason why the anime should have been as long as it was.


Also: I guess we'll see how they handle 17's "sacrifice" here. I actually think the anime handled this aspect much better, which made me all the more pissed when he it meant fucking nothing towards the end. I don't expect him to have died here either, but I hope they find a better way of bringing him back into the tournament than just "I WAS JUST UNDER DEBRIS THE ENTIRE TIME!!!"



also please don't let him win.

[Xeogran]

also please don't let him win.

I doubt something as important as ToP winner wouldn't be decided by Toriyama. Otherwise we would have been living in a lie and Toei could have made a Tien clone win if they wanted to.

[The Monkey King]

The drawing of Jiren on the last page is laughably bad!

The first time I saw it I thought it was a Deviant Art mock-up that a fan created.

As for the chapter... It was ok, Dyspo and Toppo were made to look too pathetic in my eyes. The anime did them way more justice than this.

[Rakurai]

You're just proving yourself wrong by bringing these examples up. In all of these, the defeat is highlighted as a big deal. Nappa? Everyone is shocked by Goku's power. Ginyu? They can finally take a breather. Cold, 19, Dabura? Same as Nappa, it highlights the character's power. Every defeat is handled with weight because 1. those characters were actually treated as opponents and not ignored, and 2. characters actually react to the characters being defeated. Toppo? Swatted aside as Vegeta powers-up and nobody really gives a shit. The defeat isn't given the time to have any impact because Vegeta moves immediately to fight Jiren. The moments had impact because they were given time to breathe before moving on to the next part of the plot; they weren't overshadowed by anything else going on at the same time like it happens here. The big moment here isn't Toppo's defeat, it's Vegeta attacking Jiren. That's the problem. You could have had both if you had just treated Toppp's defeat with a bit more severity and let the moment sink in, but instead it's treated as irrelevant and immediately overshadowed by what comes after.

I don't compare the DBS manga to the DBS anime in terms of how it was executed like you. That is the wrong way to go about it, Toyo isn't trying to beat the anime or look to win these stupid anime vs manga "which did it better?" debates. I look at it from a storytelling perspective based on the original manga, of which it serves as the sequel.

Oh shit, dude. If I compared Toyotaro to the original manga, then trust me, I would be here complaining much more often because he does literally nothing as well as the original manga did.

The reason I bring up the anime, as explained above, is because it's an immediate alternative to the same scene. If a scene is done better in the anime, then you can use it as an example for how the manga could have done it better. I'm not interested in the overall debate of which product is better in general, because as I said a billion times in this thread before, and I'm getting sick of repeating myself, they. are. both. garbage.

Of course, all fans see are power levels and battles so I'm not surprised why you'd complain about things that never mattered to DB from a storytelling perspective in the first place.

I keep saying it's an issue with the way the scene is presented, not muh powerlevuls, and said Vegeta one-shotting Toppo would be fine if presented well; for starters, how about he actually punched him? Or better yet, if you really wanna go the route of "Vegeta is so powerful he knocks out Toppo with his aura" then how about he does that, but this time, crazy thought, he actually intends to do it rather than doing it simply because he got mad at that darn Kakarot again and knocked off Toppo as a side-effect of his charge at Jiren? And people actually react to such a powerful character being swatted aside like fodder?

More importantly, how about you actually read what I'm saying instead of projecting bullshit onto my posts? There's nothing more that I hate than someone who has been here a few months and thinks they know all about a member who has been here for years and has over 10k posts because they read a couple of posts on one subject in the same thread.

Toppo beat CSSB Goku in the exhibition match. That was a big deal, he alone posed an uncertainty of victory for U7. A shock for Beerus and for Goku. Throughout the battle, we saw Toppo and Vegeta constantly stalemate each other. He served as a benchmark for Vegeta's strength up until the pride boost which obviously put him above Goku earlier in that regard.

Then you have Toppo being kicked around by Frieza after being severely weakened. Dyspo rushing in to help out his teammate. Jiren refusing to lend them a helping hand. This is completely natural of the characters in these types of situations. It's a story that unfolds, not pure fanservice.

Their roles to the plot of the ToP saga were no different than the likes of which I mentioned earlier. Nappa, humiliated in the end by getting off'd by Vegeta. Ginyu, not even shown fighting at his fullest, as it was Recoome who had all the primary fights. Mecha Frieza, not shown the full extent of his power because he was treated like unsuspecting fodder. King Cold, lolpls. Dabura, not even having a proper battle at all. Your definition of impact is also very subjective and I disagree with it, because I thought that the scene of Jiren refusing to help his two comrades showed a lot about Jiren's character and personality which was the whole point.

And this is where I stop my discussion with you. I'm not bothered to discuss points to people who like to point out however much time they spent on forums or boast about their 10k posts. If your points are shit, then your points are shit no matter how long you've been here.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I gave you a real life example so as to make an analogy with their situation. This is not an entirely fictional situation either, it's a stamina/damage issue which is all too applicable in real life, especially in a setting where they cannot rely on flight.

Not to sound rude, but who are you to determine how tired/damaged Toppo and Dyspo were to not be able to make that gap? Toppo was smacked around by Frieza after a hard battle with Vegeta; Dyspo probably in a similar condition after fighting with 17 after being smacked around by Kefla. If the story presents it like that, then you simply underestimate the extent of their battle damage/fatigue.

And worse if you're still making dumb comparisons with regards to battle power/power levels like "Oh Tao Pai Pai was able to do this so Toppo/Dyspo even at 0.0000000001% should still be able to since they're SSJ2/GoD tier." This is not a video game where as long as you have some HP, or based on some numerical stats, you can still perform feats as if you were normal until it drops to zero. This is not how DB works in general, these are characters who still have physical limitations or otherwise you might as well complain at Gohan not being able to catch a Potara ring because he could perceive FTL movements or Vegeta not being able to get out of the way of the Spirit bomb meant at kid Buu because he should at least be able to jump 100000 m even at 0.0001% condition since that should "theoretically" remain greater than Tao Pai Pai.

Except something like this would never happen in real life. A human would never be weakened to such an absurd extent. It'd be like a human getting so exhausted they become weaker than a subatomic particle.

Being that damaged from so little only makes them look pathetic as I already said.

And that isn't at all what I said, I literally said I wasn't referring to battle power. Your points here are completely irrelevant because I never once said characters shouldn't weaken or that they don't have physical limitations. Also, the Gohan thing was dumb as hell too, but the Vegeta thing makes sense since even if he was thousands of times faster than Tao Pai Pai he'd still be far too slow to avoid the Genki Dama since Goku would need to throw it fast enough to get Buu who is immensely superior to Vegeta.

[kemuri07]

The drawing of Jiren on the last page is laughably bad!

The first time I saw it I thought it was a Deviant Art mock-up that a fan created.

As for the chapter... It was ok, Dyspo and Toppo were made to look too pathetic in my eyes. The anime did them way more justice than this.

This is my continued issue with the critiques of the manga. What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?

[Xeogran]

What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?

Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.

[Bergamo]

What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?

Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.

The manga has a sensible powerscale, so it won't do the same things the anime does. Buffing Goku so that his God form is a lot stronger than his Blue form was a few episodes, Kale and Caulifla's stupidly powerful fusion, and Vegeta's successive rage boosts were all added to make things "cool", but they ruin the believability of the story.

[Doctor.]

What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?

Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.

The manga has a sensible powerscale, so it won't do the same things the anime does. Buffing Goku so that his God form is a lot stronger than his Blue form was a few episodes, Kale and Caulifla's stupidly powerful fusion, and Vegeta's successive rage boosts were all added to make things "cool", but they ruin the believability of the story.

You can have a sensible power scale and cool fights, let's not act like they're mutually exclusive when the original series did both.

[Dbzk1999]

The drawing of Jiren on the last page is laughably bad!

The first time I saw it I thought it was a Deviant Art mock-up that a fan created.

As for the chapter... It was ok, Dyspo and Toppo were made to look too pathetic in my eyes. The anime did them way more justice than this.

This is my continued issue with the critiques of the manga. What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?

Does it mean their fights won’t get off-paneled?

[Bergamo]

Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.

The manga has a sensible powerscale, so it won't do the same things the anime does. Buffing Goku so that his God form is a lot stronger than his Blue form was a few episodes, Kale and Caulifla's stupidly powerful fusion, and Vegeta's successive rage boosts were all added to make things "cool", but they ruin the believability of the story.

You can have a sensible power scale and cool fights, let's not act like they're mutually exclusive when the original series did both.

I don't deny that, but I'd rather have less cool fights and a better power scale rather than more cool fights and a worse power scale.