"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps they could also suppress their ki to untraceable levels? Probably not seeing as you also made this kind of ridiculous comment:

You can't have it both ways. You can't say Goku teleported near Jiren and then say Jiren can't sense his presence if he's literally right behind him standing next to some rock. It's dumb is what it is, to lose track of two opponents that way regardless of whether Goku used IT or not.

Then again, you're getting hung up on something I said on my original post was a nitpick so I'm not sure why you're blowing this out of proportion and acting as if this is a big reason as to why I think the chapter is a pile of garbage. If it makes you happy, I'm willing to concede this point mostly because I don't give a shit one way or the other.

It's like you just look at the pictures without context. I guess Kale blew away a good number of fighters and the Namekians using WIND as well. I guess being tired and damaged enough after that knockback and getting kicked around by Frieza doesn't mean anything. It's like I'm reading the comments of someone who just looked at leaks and started bitching without understanding what was going on in the dialogue or context. Jesus.

"Wind" is obviously hyperbole but it's not like it's far from the truth. Toppo got pushed back from Vegeta's aura and then it's revealed that he's out of energy to make the gap. Kale blowing through fodder and Vegeta knocking a big deal type character out of the stage by powering-up are not the same. This is an issue of presentation. Vegeta could even one shot Toppo for all I care, but as long as it's done respectfully and given the weight and impact a moment like that deserves. Swatting Toppo aside like he's a fly and complete, no-name fodder makes him look, guess what, pathetic. And if the purpose of the scene was exactly that, to make him look pathetic, then it would be fine (well, not really, I'd still argue that Toppo was built-up too much to have that kind of send-off) but then you'd lose all ground to continue your discussion with me since you're specifically arguing that it wasn't pathetic.

And I do read the dialogue, I just don't eat up a bucket of shit for dinner because it's the only thing they bother to give me.

[nato25]

Beerus said Vegeta could be a Hakaishin candidate in another Universe, after a display of power.

Goku was ringed out by Toppo because he let his guard down. The later doubts his chances of victory if not for that moment.

Toppo is a big deal, Vegeta is an even bigger deal. The Saiyans evolving during battle further increases the gap between Toppo and Vegeta. This is not head-canon it's all explicitly said in the manga.

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.

Goku can teleport around the ki signature. He was close enough to Jiren's as well as Vegeta's ki to do so. This isn't a plot hole.

It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

Who the fuck are you talking to? Because it's clearly not me. I told you one response ago that I think the anime is a piece of shit (and go ahead, ask anyone on this forum if I'm lying) and you say I'm hypocritical and think Toei can do no wrong? I think both versions of Super are hot garbage, my dude; and not because my mind is "made up" but because they've given me countless reasons to think they're hot garbage.

Now as to your anime comparison, I never questioned whether or not Vegeta beating Toppo makes sense. I said the way Toppo went out was pathetic because it was presented that way. Toppo was casually swatted aside like a fly as Vegeta chases a stronger opponent, and then he didn't have enough energy to jump and then he falls off the stage. It's an anti-climax. For as absolutely retarded the anime version of the scene was (much more-so than the manga), it was presented at the very least with some degree of gravitas and poignancy. You may think Goku and Freeza beating Jiren is dumb, and frankly I don't really care if you do, but the way it's presented doesn't make Jiren look pathetic at all, because of the music and thematic meaning behind the fight, as you yourself make the case for.

I never made a case for the music and themes making it any better. I said thats probably why YOU liked it.

Lets go back to how previous villains lost

Freeza - to THE legendary super saiyan

Cell - SS2 gohan with his father encouraging him and still needed an opening from Vegeta distracting Cell

Boo - ss3 goku utterly failed and required a genki dama powered up by billions + getting his stamina returned by the Dragonballs

Jiren - powers up after his teammates say the believe in him, loses to base freeza and base goku. THE STRONGEST Mortal lost to two fighters ( a reckless fighting nut and the emperor of evil) at their weakest natural states Jiren losing cleanly to UI goku would have been better than that crap.

But Jiren was almost completely exhausted after fighting the entire fight... How is there a problem here. Frieza even says he can no longer sense the overwhelming strength. Goku coming back after the UI taking its toll was pretty dumb (you could argue that even that happening is dumb) but I dont see a problem with the way he was defeated. Each of those prior villains you mentioned was still basically at full power when they lost the fight. You didnt mentiom vegeta who would have died from a sword attack from krillin.

[Bergamo]

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.



It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.



Who the fuck are you talking to? Because it's clearly not me. I told you one response ago that I think the anime is a piece of shit (and go ahead, ask anyone on this forum if I'm lying) and you say I'm hypocritical and think Toei can do no wrong? I think both versions of Super are hot garbage, my dude; and not because my mind is "made up" but because they've given me countless reasons to think they're hot garbage.

Now as to your anime comparison, I never questioned whether or not Vegeta beating Toppo makes sense. I said the way Toppo went out was pathetic because it was presented that way. Toppo was casually swatted aside like a fly as Vegeta chases a stronger opponent, and then he didn't have enough energy to jump and then he falls off the stage. It's an anti-climax. For as absolutely retarded the anime version of the scene was (much more-so than the manga), it was presented at the very least with some degree of gravitas and poignancy. You may think Goku and Freeza beating Jiren is dumb, and frankly I don't really care if you do, but the way it's presented doesn't make Jiren look pathetic at all, because of the music and thematic meaning behind the fight, as you yourself make the case for.

I never made a case for the music and themes making it any better. I said thats probably why YOU liked it.

Lets go back to how previous villains lost

Freeza - to THE legendary super saiyan

Cell - SS2 gohan with his father encouraging him and still needed an opening from Vegeta distracting Cell

Boo - ss3 goku utterly failed and required a genki dama powered up by billions + getting his stamina returned by the Dragonballs

Jiren - powers up after his teammates say the believe in him, loses to base freeza and base goku. THE STRONGEST Mortal lost to two fighters ( a reckless fighting nut and the emperor of evil) at their weakest natural states Jiren losing cleanly to UI goku would have been better than that crap.

But Jiren was almost completely exhausted after fighting the entire fight... How is there a problem here. Frieza even says he can no longer sense the overwhelming strength. Goku coming back after the UI taking its toll was pretty dumb (you could argue that even that happening is dumb) but I dont see a problem with the way he was defeated. Each of those prior villains you mentioned was still basically at full power when they lost the fight. You didnt mentiom vegeta who would have died from a sword attack from krillin.

It's about suspension of disbelief. Jiren was able to take on the strongest attacks of 3 Blue tier fighters at the same time with his aura, so people think that even with only 1% of his power, he should still effortlessly beat base Goku.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.



It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.



Who the fuck are you talking to? Because it's clearly not me. I told you one response ago that I think the anime is a piece of shit (and go ahead, ask anyone on this forum if I'm lying) and you say I'm hypocritical and think Toei can do no wrong? I think both versions of Super are hot garbage, my dude; and not because my mind is "made up" but because they've given me countless reasons to think they're hot garbage.

Now as to your anime comparison, I never questioned whether or not Vegeta beating Toppo makes sense. I said the way Toppo went out was pathetic because it was presented that way. Toppo was casually swatted aside like a fly as Vegeta chases a stronger opponent, and then he didn't have enough energy to jump and then he falls off the stage. It's an anti-climax. For as absolutely retarded the anime version of the scene was (much more-so than the manga), it was presented at the very least with some degree of gravitas and poignancy. You may think Goku and Freeza beating Jiren is dumb, and frankly I don't really care if you do, but the way it's presented doesn't make Jiren look pathetic at all, because of the music and thematic meaning behind the fight, as you yourself make the case for.

I never made a case for the music and themes making it any better. I said thats probably why YOU liked it.

Lets go back to how previous villains lost

Freeza - to THE legendary super saiyan

Cell - SS2 gohan with his father encouraging him and still needed an opening from Vegeta distracting Cell

Boo - ss3 goku utterly failed and required a genki dama powered up by billions + getting his stamina returned by the Dragonballs

Jiren - powers up after his teammates say the believe in him, loses to base freeza and base goku. THE STRONGEST Mortal lost to two fighters ( a reckless fighting nut and the emperor of evil) at their weakest natural states Jiren losing cleanly to UI goku would have been better than that crap.

But Jiren was almost completely exhausted after fighting the entire fight... How is there a problem here. Frieza even says he can no longer sense the overwhelming strength. Goku coming back after the UI taking its toll was pretty dumb (you could argue that even that happening is dumb) but I dont see a problem with the way he was defeated. Each of those prior villains you mentioned was still basically at full power when they lost the fight. You didnt mentiom vegeta who would have died from a sword attack from krillin.

After Toppo said encouraging words for jiren, he got up and released ki that GOLDEN Freeza and a17 could barely hold off, then freeza dropped from GOLDEN to BASE, then goku came, 10 seconds after his body had been wrecked and helped them hold it off. Then jiren said "son goku, once again you stand infront of me", powered up AGAIN to which gohan said " an incredible amount of ki has gathered". So jiren was at a level above episode 131 golden freeza and 17 and then base goku and base freeza beat him. That was simply PLOT, there's no other way to justify it, unless you want to tell me base goku (post body breaking down) was stronger than 17 and GF and that base freeza after reverting was above the same Gold freeza. Powerscaling SHOULD NOT rule the story but that was total and utter bogus, the strongest mortal EVER shouldn't lose to fighters at their weakest, if it was blue goku and golden freeza, it would be fine since jiren wasn't near full power but he wasn't that weak either

[Rebel Instinct]

Aside from that, I quite liked this chapter, especially Jiren. I'll get into that more when I have more time.

To be fair, this is the manga's version of scenes like these:











Not that they don't get a little monotonous, but still. It's more of a general " Dragon Ball" thing than a "manga-only" thing. I know you meant no harm, but I just wanted to point out what those scenes are supposed to represent so that others can see what Toyotaro is getting at with these panels. No biggie.

I do look forward to reading your thoughts on the chapter though. Not sure if I'll post anything myself, but I'll still be lurking about as per usual.

[LightBing]

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.

You're the one who brought status and achievements into the table to make it seem Toppo was that great, to justify calling his demise pathetic . You're singing a different tune now.

There's enough information and clues for the reader to fill the gaps. I'll say it again, Vegeta beat up Toppo until that point it wasn't just the wind or rocks, capitalizing the words won't make it more important than it is, it was a combination of 4 chapters of confrontation. It's true that we didn't saw most of it and we should have seen more, nevertheless your collection of adjectives is an exaggeration.

So let's just agree to disagree.

[Miracles]

Also, I totally called it SSBE(or something essentially the same) being in the manga too!

It's not SSBE. There are no sparkles. Vegeta didn't even get bigger.

[PFM18]

Also, I totally called it SSBE(or something essentially the same) being in the manga too!

It's not SSBE. There are no sparkles. Vegeta didn't even get bigger.

its the same thing dude. You can't even show sparkles in the manga really because there's no animation and Vegeta only marginally got bigger in the anime. this isnt like a Grade 2 situation this is an evolution of Blue.

The concept is identical even if the choices with the visuals aren't exactly the same

[Miracles]

Also, I totally called it SSBE(or something essentially the same) being in the manga too!

It's not SSBE. There are no sparkles. Vegeta didn't even get bigger.

its the same thing dude. You can't even show sparkles in the manga really because there's no animation and Vegeta only marginally got bigger in the anime. this isnt like a Grade 2 situation this is an evolution of Blue.

The concept is identical even if the choices with the visuals aren't exactly the same

No cause DB is very specific when it comes to a forms design. It's not identical to SSBE.

[prince212]

Nice chapter, as a vegeta fan I liked more of him against jiren instead of toppo , obviously I wanted more of toppo vs vegeta , again kind of offscreen fight .
Art was great and I can’t care less about that panel of a side view that shows a frontal attack jiren vegeta that some people criticize as reused or own tracing.
Again I don’t like Krillin abusing talking in the stage , annoys me somehow , having more people in the stage .
18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .
Vegeta kind of talked to much , but it’s ok
I laughed with Whis face after vegeta saying he had no masters , but I liked how they concealed that ultra instinct doesn’t fit him .
No problem with ultra instinct goku at will , well done showing calm after 17 death
Jiren .. amazing , just the 1% of waste movements line no matter how weak the opponent is made me thing that he wasted that 1% on roshi .
Overall , nice chapter and surprised again that toyo is able to hype me in this arc that I’m counting the minutes remaining
( 8? 2 chapters .)... knowing what happened through the anime kills some enjoyment... 17 will be back and stuff like that .
And , apologies if somebody gets offended because I like this manga , sometimes looks like is bad to enjoy it , but that’s good for me , I’m sorry for the people that suffer because of that

[Kanassa]

18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .

18 when she watched another loved one announce their suicide tactic

Spoiler:

[Saiga]

18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .

18 when she watched another loved one announce their suicide tactic

Spoiler:

That's only from the anime.

Besides, I can't stress this enough: wait and see before over-reacting. We already know there's more to 17's suicide than this.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Nice chapter, as a vegeta fan I liked more of him against jiren instead of toppo , obviously I wanted more of toppo vs vegeta , again kind of offscreen fight .
Art was great and I can’t care less about that panel of a side view that shows a frontal attack jiren vegeta that some people criticize as reused or own tracing.
Again I don’t like Krillin abusing talking in the stage , annoys me somehow , having more people in the stage .
18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .
Vegeta kind of talked to much , but it’s ok
I laughed with Whis face after vegeta saying he had no masters , but I liked how they concealed that ultra instinct doesn’t fit him .
No problem with ultra instinct goku at will , well done showing calm after 17 death
Jiren .. amazing , just the 1% of waste movements line no matter how weak the opponent is made me thing that he wasted that 1% on roshi .
Overall , nice chapter and surprised again that toyo is able to hype me in this arc that I’m counting the minutes remaining
( 8? 2 chapters .)... knowing what happened through the anime kills some enjoyment... 17 will be back and stuff like that .
And , apologies if somebody gets offended because I like this manga , sometimes looks like is bad to enjoy it , but that’s good for me , I’m sorry for the people that suffer because of that

No one is going to get offended because you like the manga. Thats Your opinion. It just so happens that a lot of people hate it. But if you like it, then more power to you.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Apparently Toppo and Dyspo got weakened to Early DB levels if they weren't even able to clear a gap that small.

Again with the power level stuff. Did people complain when Saiyan saga Vegeta with a beating like his should've also been able to get up and walk like it was nothing since it takes literally just fraction of 1 power level to?

That was because his body was destroyed. These guys are just exhausted.

[prince212]

18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .

18 when she watched another loved one announce their suicide tactic

Spoiler:

She shows her emotions mostly talking about money or material things .
Remember her reaction when his brother wish the revival of erased universes instead of a big canoe ?

Spoiler:

[JazzMazz]

Man, this was bad. If the anime is the pinnacle of dumb spectacle, then this is the pinnacle of an anticlimax. Nothing here has any weight. Everything is so lame.

Vegeta's transformation is sudden, arbitrary and ultimately even a bigger offender than the anime because it goes ahead and regresses all the development he has gotten throughout Super. He's basically telling Whis to go fuck himself all throughout this chapter. I thought we'd gotten over this prideful Vegeta the moment he lowered himself to train with Whis, but I guess not. His speech to Jiren is hamfisted and comes without build-up. And the whole aura thing is antithetical to the SSB idea of keeping the Ki inside your body.

Toppo (and Dyspo) has been discarded as if he were a worthless jobber. He is a jobber in fact, he jobbed to a fucking rock. I could buy that he couldn't jump back if Toyotaro actually made any effort of portraying his (and Dyspo's) fatigue, but all he did throughout the tournament was fight Vegeta. And whereas Vegeta is able to go fight Jiren A-OK, Toppo gets pushed back by his aura and is suddenly without strength to jump such small gap. Maybe it's actually a big gap, a larger distance than what #17 jumped at the start of the tournament to prove flying didn't matter, but I certainly didn't get that impression when the tournament stage is so fucking tiny and has no sense of scale whatsoever.

#17's sacrifice is really, really bland. It wasn't given the weight and importance a moment like that should, but I'm willing to let that one slide considering we know he comes back. So lingering on for pages and pages would be bad.

I like the idea of Goku going UI again by calming himself down, but the dramatic effect is lost immediately when he just pops into it with no trouble. Still, I will give props to Toyotaro if he keeps this consistent and Goku doesn't get a rage boost in the climax. If he does, then... well, fuck this arc again.

Things I liked: 17 and Freeza's interactions are good, even if I feel Freeza was too quick to be a team player in this version. As much as the scenes of Freeza coming from nowhere to job got annoying during the final stretch of the tournament, it just made it all the more impactful when he actually teamed up in the last episode. That's lost here when he's so willing to sacrifice himself to buy Goku time.

Other minor nitpicks: the art is awful. Toyotaro forgot how IT works, Goku needs a Ki to sense, he can't just teleport into open space. Jiren saying he doesn't waste a movement is a blatant lie when he keeps toying with Freeza, 17 and Vegeta here (as well as fighting off-screen with Goku for God knows how many chapters) even though he has proven he can one shot everybody.

All in all, probably the worst chapter yet. Every week I'm surprised.

Adding to that, I think its complete bullshit for Jiren to say "I have no wasted movements", when literally last chapter, he was being made a complete mockery of by Roshi, who dodged Jiren's attacks for 4 pages. So much for "no wasted movements".

[MegaBossMan]

You know, the fun of the tournament arcs in Dragon Ball isn't just the spectacle of the fight covering for lack of genuine substance, but it's the constant bombardment of new and interesting, even if flat, characters that come along as a result. Maybe they don't even have that much to add personality-wise, but at the very least they introduce fun new gimmicks that help lead and eventually form the foundation of the climax of the arc. Characters like Nam, Giran, Bacterian, Hero, Spopovich, Magetta, Botamo, Cabba, all of these characters are essentially filler but they offer fun distractions for the main event and give side protagonists someone to shine against. This structure is so engrained into Dragon Ball that this works its way into non-tournament arcs, such as the Namek arc and Android arc. Many fights may not be strictly related to the main event, and they may as well be fluff, but it's at least a distraction.

Which makes it obnoxious that this battle royale has essentially just really been the Tournament of Jiren. Kefla was essentially skimmed aside. Anilaza was essentially just skimmed aside. Anyone who isn't Goku, 17, or Roshi for the most part have been skimmed aside. And now Dyspo and Toppo (who had magnificent build-up in the Zeno exhibition match, more so than the anime!) have now essentially been skimmed aside. I don't blame any of Toyotaro's facets, he's working against the restrictions of a manga format, but nothing's selling it for me here. The manga's ToP contains nothing I truly search for in a Dragon Ball product.

But enough incessant negativity. Freeza buying time for Goku and Vegeta was cute. And 17's self-destruct I thought was handled visually better than the anime. Vegeta's speech was somewhat conflicting, but it's tolerable and neat to get the confirmation he might not just follow with copying Goku's transformations for the entire series. That's about all I have worth pointing out. Maybe next chapter will be more for me, I guess

[dragon boss z]

I think this biggest problem of this chapter was that Dypo didn't get one panel of fighting. He is supposed to be one of the final contestants, but the only action panels he got were a few against Goku in one of the early chapters. It didn't have to be much, a couple of pages of him fighting 17 would have sufficed. Besides that I thought it was a solid chapter, and better than the last two. My favorite part was Frieza toying with Toppo and Dyspo.

[PFM18]

Nice chapter, as a vegeta fan I liked more of him against jiren instead of toppo , obviously I wanted more of toppo vs vegeta , again kind of offscreen fight .
Art was great and I can’t care less about that panel of a side view that shows a frontal attack jiren vegeta that some people criticize as reused or own tracing.
Again I don’t like Krillin abusing talking in the stage , annoys me somehow , having more people in the stage .
18 actions are suit to her character , she’s cold as always .
Vegeta kind of talked to much , but it’s ok
I laughed with Whis face after vegeta saying he had no masters , but I liked how they concealed that ultra instinct doesn’t fit him .
No problem with ultra instinct goku at will , well done showing calm after 17 death
Jiren .. amazing , just the 1% of waste movements line no matter how weak the opponent is made me thing that he wasted that 1% on roshi .
Overall , nice chapter and surprised again that toyo is able to hype me in this arc that I’m counting the minutes remaining
( 8? 2 chapters .)... knowing what happened through the anime kills some enjoyment... 17 will be back and stuff like that .
And , apologies if somebody gets offended because I like this manga , sometimes looks like is bad to enjoy it , but that’s good for me , I’m sorry for the people that suffer because of that

No one is going to get offended because you like the manga. Thats Your opinion. It just so happens that a lot of people hate it. But if you like it, then more power to you.

Yeah pretty much. Well said

[Rakurai]

That was because his body was destroyed. These guys are just exhausted.

If I can clear a 2 m gap like it's child's play when I'm fresh, then get beaten up to the point where I can barely move, do you think I'd still be able to clear the same 2 m gap to save my life? Not even a snowball's chance in hell.

That is exactly what went on with Toppo and Dyspo.

Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps they could also suppress their ki to untraceable levels? Probably not seeing as you also made this kind of ridiculous comment:

You can't have it both ways. You can't say Goku teleported near Jiren and then say Jiren can't sense his presence if he's literally right behind him standing next to some rock. It's dumb is what it is, to lose track of two opponents that way regardless of whether Goku used IT or not.

Then again, you're getting hung up on something I said on my original post was a nitpick so I'm not sure why you're blowing this out of proportion and acting as if this is a big reason as to why I think the chapter is a pile of garbage. If it makes you happy, I'm willing to concede this point mostly because I don't give a shit one way or the other.

Vegeta immediately powered down as soon as he and Goku teleported behind the rock. That should literally tell you all you need to know about their ability to instantaneously suppress their ki. It's not complicated.

You said it made no sense, I told you why it makes perfect sense, you called it piss poor writing, I defended it. You escalated the issue and tried to find fault with something that isn't there in the first place. If you want to stop here, then fine but don't act as if I'm the one who started it when you chided something you didn't understand from the mechanics of IT as "piss poor writing."

"Wind" is obviously hyperbole but it's not like it's far from the truth. Toppo got pushed back from Vegeta's aura and then it's revealed that he's out of energy to make the gap. Kale blowing through fodder and Vegeta knocking a big deal type character out of the stage by powering-up are not the same. This is an issue of presentation. Vegeta could even one shot Toppo for all I care, but as long as it's done respectfully and given the weight and impact a moment like that deserves. Swatting Toppo aside like he's a fly and complete, no-name fodder makes him look, guess what, pathetic. And if the purpose of the scene was exactly that, to make him look pathetic, then it would be fine (well, not really, I'd still argue that Toppo was built-up too much to have that kind of send-off) but then you'd lose all ground to continue your discussion with me since you're specifically arguing that it wasn't pathetic.

And I do read the dialogue, I just don't eat up a bucket of shit for dinner because it's the only thing they bother to give me.

Done respectfully? Since when have all the sub-antagonists received respectful ends or moments that have as much of an impact as the finisher for the finale boss since Z? You sure you read the proper manga?

• Nappa? Got humiliated by Goku and erased by Vegeta for being trash.
• Ginyu? Ended up in a frog's body after not being able to use Goku's body properly. Wholly humiliated by Krillin to boot.
• King Cold? Treated as an afterthought to F. Trunks after humiliating Frieza far worse than Goku ever did.
• No. 19? Ran away like a little bitch from Vegeta. Dr. Gero? Played by and sacked by 17.
• Dabura? Immediately wasted by Buu. Didn't even finish his battle with Gohan, hell didn't even get a proper one either.

I don't compare the DBS manga to the DBS anime in terms of how it was executed like you. That is the wrong way to go about it, Toyo isn't trying to beat the anime or look to win these stupid anime vs manga "which did it better?" debates. I look at it from a storytelling perspective based on the original manga, of which it serves as the sequel.

Toppo lost to the third strongest fighter in the ToP, and fought him to a stalemate until Vegeta until Vegeta got another pride power boost. He served a role and purpose, but from the start of the ToP was always clearly secondary to Jiren. The intention of the scene was not to make them look pathetic, but rather highlight the distance metaphorically between Jiren and the rest of the Pride Troopers, and further characterize Jiren. Of course, all fans see are power levels and battles so I'm not surprised why you'd complain about things that never mattered to DB from a storytelling perspective in the first place.