"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TKA
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:38 pm

NormalHero wrote:So, the heart of cards concept is in dragon ball now. Very nice toriyama.
What?

Firstly, "heart of the cards" is some made-up 4kids bullshit that has no bearing in the actual original story Kazuki Takahashi created. In his story, they're just cardboard.

Secondly, spirituality has always been a part of dragonball.

Thirdly, this is Toyotaro's manga, not Toriyama's.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:39 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Kanassa wrote:You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.
That is the crux of the issue.

It simplifies Goku's character to being a person who focuses solely on strength to win a battle rather than taking account strategy, cunning and other tactics. It's made even worse by the fact that Goku himself lambasted the idea of focusing on nothing but power to win a fight during the Cell arc and by the fact that in Super itself Goku has won fight when focuses on other tactics beyond how strong he can get or how hard he can hit.

This chapter made Goku look like a novice in martial arts, when in reality, he's the most naturally gifted and adaptable fighter in all of Dragon Ball. Seriously, the writing Goku annoyed me so much in Chapter 39. I honestly think it borders on character assassination.
The Roshi thing was wholly unnecessary since Goku already watched Beerus using his own incomplete Ultra Instinct against foes much closer to Jiren's level. There's no reason he couldn't have had a moment of epiphany or something like that and thought back to that moment when he realized that he had zero hope of besting Jiren in a straight contest of power. He could have put those pieces together all on his own.

Back in Chapter 35, Hit wanted Goku to team up with him when he tried the Time Slip strategy, but Goku blew him off because he wanted to beat Jiren alone and break his limit. He basically admits he's banking on a new transformation to win this fight.
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:41 pm

I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:45 pm

TKA wrote:
HeroR wrote:
The thing that stands out is Toyo contradicted himself. Even in the Super manga, Goku is shown to be a master by how he outsmarted Botamo instead of going to his full power, figures out how to counter Hit’s Time-Skip, did a baby version of the Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan switching technique, figured out how to completely mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and even came up with the idea to learn the Evil Containment Wave to be an immortal.

Yet somehow ‘Goku only focus on power and needs his old master to show him the way’. Like, what? Who is Toyo’s editor?
This is in no way a contradiction. That's Goku using his brain in combat to figure out how to deal with his opponents' abilities.

In this fight, Goku knows he can't overcome Jiren unless he powers up. He knows there's a barrier between them, and is trying to get past that. He's trying to raise his battle power to push past his limits.

That's pretty consistent with the Goku Toyotaro has written. He's perceptive enough to see that there is a problem, but not insightful enough to instantly figure out a solution. He didn't instantly figure out how to complete Super Saiyan Blue, nor did he instantly figure out how to deal with Hit, nor did he instantly come up with the Mafuba strategy.

Relax and let the story play out.
That’s the contradiction as Roshi explicitly calls Goku out because he focuses only on strength and has forgotten what his masters taught him.
Which makes absolutely no sense at all, while making Goku look like an amateur to have Roshi look like a badass master, who has everything figured out because of his “experience” even though Goku has much more experience then he has.
Since when was Roshi more perceptive than Goku in a fight? Since when did Roshi change his mentality that strength isn’t all there is to martial arts?
I can’t relax and let the story play out like this. Toyotaro has completely forgotten he is writing Dragon Ball. If he wants to do his own manga, he should leave DB and do it instead of making Dragon Ball into something it never was by also completely changing the characters for one chapter for the sake of telling his narrative.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:47 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Kanassa wrote:You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.
That is the crux of the issue.

It simplifies Goku's character to being a person who focuses solely on strength to win a battle rather than taking account strategy, cunning and other tactics. It's made even worse by the fact that Goku himself lambasted the idea of focusing on nothing but power to win a fight during the Cell arc and by the fact that in Super itself Goku has won fight when focuses on other tactics beyond how strong he can get or how hard he can hit.

This chapter made Goku look like a novice in martial arts, when in reality, he's the most naturally gifted and adaptable fighter in all of Dragon Ball. Seriously, the writing Goku annoyed me so much in Chapter 39. I honestly think it borders on character assassination.
The Roshi thing was wholly unnecessary since Goku already watched Beerus using his own incomplete Ultra Instinct against foes much closer to Jiren's level. There's no reason he couldn't have had a moment of epiphany or something like that and thought back to that moment when he realized that he had zero hope of besting Jiren in a straight contest of power. He could have put those pieces together all on his own.

Back in Chapter 35, Hit wanted Goku to team up with him when he tried the Time Slip strategy, but Goku blew him off because he wanted to beat Jiren alone and break his limit. He basically admits he's banking on a new transformation to win this fight.
Which is exactly why Gokou needed Kame-Sennin. Gokou went basically the entirety of Super without thinking of what Whis taught him. He didn’t think about Ultra Instinct when fighting Golden Freeza, Hit, Gokou-Black, Potara Zamasu, and Toppo. Kame-Sennin is someone with experience so don’t you think he could have helped Gokou realize what he hasn’t perfected in his training with all of his masters?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:47 pm

Meshack wrote:I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol
It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:49 pm

Meshack wrote:I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol
Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to. It’s why you always see the soldiers trained in martial arts dodging bullets left and right. I don’t know why people are complaining, I always find it easy to avoid high speed cars which is why I always cross the traffic at full speed without checking my sides.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:50 pm

emperior wrote:
TKA wrote:
HeroR wrote:
The thing that stands out is Toyo contradicted himself. Even in the Super manga, Goku is shown to be a master by how he outsmarted Botamo instead of going to his full power, figures out how to counter Hit’s Time-Skip, did a baby version of the Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan switching technique, figured out how to completely mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and even came up with the idea to learn the Evil Containment Wave to be an immortal.

Yet somehow ‘Goku only focus on power and needs his old master to show him the way’. Like, what? Who is Toyo’s editor?
This is in no way a contradiction. That's Goku using his brain in combat to figure out how to deal with his opponents' abilities.

In this fight, Goku knows he can't overcome Jiren unless he powers up. He knows there's a barrier between them, and is trying to get past that. He's trying to raise his battle power to push past his limits.

That's pretty consistent with the Goku Toyotaro has written. He's perceptive enough to see that there is a problem, but not insightful enough to instantly figure out a solution. He didn't instantly figure out how to complete Super Saiyan Blue, nor did he instantly figure out how to deal with Hit, nor did he instantly come up with the Mafuba strategy.

Relax and let the story play out.
That’s the contradiction as Roshi explicitly calls Goku out because he focuses only on strength and has forgotten what his masters taught him.
Which makes absolutely no sense at all, while making Goku look like an amateur to have Roshi look like a badass master, who has everything figured out because of his “experience” even though Goku has much more experience then he has.
Since when was Roshi more perceptive than Goku in a fight? Since when did Roshi change his mentality that strength isn’t all there is to martial arts?
I can’t relax and let the story play out like this. Toyotaro has completely forgotten he is writing Dragon Ball. If he wants to do his own manga, he should leave DB and do it instead of making Dragon Ball into something it never was by also completely changing the characters for one chapter for the sake of telling his narrative.
Gokou used strength to overcome all of his opponents such as Freeza and Majin-Boo. He believed Gohan could beat Cell because of his hidden potential. Gokou never perfected all of his training such as his training with Whis - Ultra Instinct.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:52 pm

emperior wrote:
Meshack wrote:I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol
Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to. It’s why you always see the soldiers trained in martial arts dodging bullets left and right. I don’t know why people are complaining, I always find it easy to avoid high speed cars which is why I always cross the traffic at full speed without checking my sides.
You’re acting like Jiren has been trying this entire tournament. Jiren has been dominating everyone that encountered him. You think he’s gonna actually try against Kame-Sennin? Please lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:52 pm

emperior wrote: That’s the contradiction as Roshi explicitly calls Goku out because he focuses only on strength and has forgotten what his masters taught him.
I read the chapter.

Roshi specifically mentioned Frieza and Vegeta because, to beat them, all Goku had to do was power up to new forms. That has been Goku's solution to every villain thus far. "Get a new form."

Roshi is 100% right. Goku was just trying to force out a transformation instead of just fighting with what he had. We know that for Roshi, that won't result in a transformation, but for Goku it will.

There's no contradiction unless you twist things instead of taking them as presented.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:56 pm

Did anyone else notice that 18 wasn't seen many times on the stands in this chapter? (for example when Gohan got eliminated she wasn't seen anywhere) Did Toyotaro forget to draw her?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:57 pm

TKA wrote:, this is Toyotaro's manga, not Toriyama's.
No it’s not toyotaro 100% at all , just 100% art. Remember when first draft of Belmont and her angel were lovers and toriyama disapproved it .. min 3:30to 4:20 of this video
https://youtu.be/YjgYXy1qiMk
Toyotaro is not free due to a script and toriyama editing, and I’m ok with that .
I’m sure big roshi performance is all toriyama thing ... and again ..I’m ok with that
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:00 pm

Gohan's fight could've been better but just the fact that he went out taking out Kefla is way better than what he got in the Super anime so I'm pleased. They even hyped him up a bit too as the potential to be stronger than Goku.

And that Master Roshi bit was so damn awesome, no creepy perverted crap like the anime where it looks like he's a predator after the girl who flees and jumps off the stage. No, they have a cool moment with him and Goku and he gets to show off one final technique and actually teach Goku to become Ultra Instinct. So fucking awesome.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:01 pm

LightBing wrote:He did the exact same thing against Vegeta and Freeza, wreck his body when nothing else works because the opponent is far too strong.
He did something similar against Pure Boo by using a form which is detrimental and not attaining victory when he should. Goku's incredibly flawed, which doesn't take away from his batle genius but it exists and it's not sporadic.
You' are right that we aren't shown much but it's implied he did all he could think off.
They're not the exact same thing. The idea isn't to ignore power completely; knowing when to use power is a tactical consideration, and using Kaio-ken against Vegeta and SS3 against Boo was the correct thing to do(unless we now look back at them and say Goku didn't know basic movement). If he had a powerup that would make him equal Jiren's power, then that also would be a valid tactic. But he didn't, and I say he should have known not to waste his time trying. It's not the biggest of deals to me that he didn't know, though, but unlike you I don't see an implication that he was ever thinking of anything other than power. Then he needed to be told how to fight smart. That's where it becomes a problem.
Dragon Ball never entered into great detail about martials arts so it's difficult not to mesh everything together but the context here is Ultra Instinct. A technique Beerus doesn't dominate, it may sound simple but it isn't. Goku isn't a dumbass for not solving a problem most Hakaishin weren't able to solve and if they are like Beerus they may have been receiving training for thousands of years!
No, but he's a "dumbass" for having to be told what he should already know. And, yes, even smart people need to be reminded now and again. But this was done in the context of Goku being portrayed as a boneheaded fighter(for only pursuing power), being called an idiot, known for being an idiot in all other regards, and what he was being told were things we thought he was already applying, being the great fighter he supposedly is. It didn't come off to me as a master who simply needed some perspective; it came across as an amateur who can only fight if he's told how.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:03 pm

TKA wrote:
emperior wrote: That’s the contradiction as Roshi explicitly calls Goku out because he focuses only on strength and has forgotten what his masters taught him.
I read the chapter.

Roshi specifically mentioned Frieza and Vegeta because, to beat them, all Goku had to do was power up to new forms. That has been Goku's solution to every villain thus far. "Get a new form."

Roshi is 100% right. Goku was just trying to force out a transformation instead of just fighting with what he had. We know that for Roshi, that won't result in a transformation, but for Goku it will.

There's no contradiction unless you twist things instead of taking them as presented.
It's not like Goku won't power up to get a new form here huh?smh

Even IF Goku can dodge all of Jiren's punches, his attacks already have no effect on the dude, so what the hell is he gonna do then? That's what makes this entire plot point so stupid.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:05 pm

reecehoward wrote:It's not like Goku won't power up to get a new form here huh?smh
You know that, I know that, but the characters don't know that.

Jeez.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:09 pm

TKA wrote:
emperior wrote: That’s the contradiction as Roshi explicitly calls Goku out because he focuses only on strength and has forgotten what his masters taught him.
I read the chapter.

Roshi specifically mentioned Frieza and Vegeta because, to beat them, all Goku had to do was power up to new forms. That has been Goku's solution to every villain thus far. "Get a new form."

Roshi is 100% right. Goku was just trying to force out a transformation instead of just fighting with what he had. We know that for Roshi, that won't result in a transformation, but for Goku it will.

There's no contradiction unless you twist things instead of taking them as presented.
The way things are presented make sense. If you consider the material which came before, they don’t.
Even when Goku was focusing on increasing his ki only, which is basically all there is to Dragon Ball’s martial arts, he hadn’t forgotten of the basics.
If you think he had, and the way Toyotaro presented things confirm this, then it means that Goku would still have trouble with taking some water from Korin or attacking Popo. Those teachings are fundamental for Goku to be able to fight at his level in the first place. He also never showed to have forgotten his trainings when he handled Yakon in the darkness.
Even when Goku noticed Freeza couldn’t sense ki and was inaccurate, he still couldn’t beat him without having the power, and even when he gained the power he needed he was still equal to Freeza, who only lost due to his stamina.

What’s most important is that in this chapter the one noticing Goku is doing mistakes is Roshi himself, who is a completely different character now for some reason. That’s the most offensive thing. And to let Roshi shine, Toyotaro had to ridicule Goku. The same Goku who powered down back during the Hit vs Jiren fight because he wanted to find something further to what he had. And he knew that the further thing was Ultra Instinct, as Vegeta already knew the name of the technique and Goku also saw it in action when Beerus used it in the Zen Exhibition match.

The one who twisted things was Toyotaro, not me. And watch out as Toyotaro will have to backpedal on things he established in this chapter once Goku achieves the mastered Ultra Instinct, as that will have to power-up Goku to make him able to confront Jiren.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:18 pm

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:20 pm

Kokonoe wrote:I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.
Can you tell me which version of Dragon Ball manga features the same Roshi who appeared in this chapter?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:21 pm

emperior wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.
Can you tell me which version of Dragon Ball manga features the same Roshi who appeared in this chapter?
The one you didn't read~ :thumbup:

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