"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Okay, why doesn't he tell Vegeta about his idea to improve Blue?

I wager it probably had to do with Vegeta's pride. Or Goku's pride. Or Goku being too stupid. Or Vegeta being unable to reach that improvement at the current moment because of some prerequisite we don't know of and that Vegeta lacks.

Although it's plenty reasonable to think Vegeta may be just as good as Goku when it came to "mastering" the SSB we don't really know what's needed of the Saiyan to get there. Also, Vegeta may know what he was supposed to do to master the state - if that was the case, presumably, he would've just been unsuccessful - while only ignoring that Goku had in fact mastered it before they fused.

[Lord Beerus]

Which was a totally moronic thing in both the anime and manga, Vegeta got over his stupid inferiority complex with Goku before, stop writing him like he hasn't just to retread old ground some more. Why the hell is GT the only thing that actually respect this development for him?

Kakarot even agreed with Vegeta. Like I posted earlier, It's the competition and the Saiyan pride involved between the two.
That's the story.

Ah yes, the Saiyan pride, or rather the plot device we need to artificially make easy to solve problems much harder under the guise of a character trait. A true staple of later DB that needs to fuck. off.

Agreed.

Goku and Vegeta not only initially turning the potara, but taking turns in fighting Merged Zamasu, annoyed me so bloody fucking much. For the all the shit that people give Goku and Vegeta not taking fights seriously in the anime, that scenario in the manga was far worse than anything has done so far. Why they hell would they think fighting Zamasu individually would work? They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were. But the scenario with Merged Zamasu inexcusable. Merged Zamasu literally kicked their butts at the same time with little effort, and they still would think it would be a good idea to turn down fusion and then take turns in him fighting him? That was so not the time for a dick measuring contest. Future Trunks and Gowasu should have slapped the shit out of both of them for doing that, and Kaioshin should have given them a verbal dressing down like no tomorrow for pulling this shit again. Because it seemed they weren't really taking this whole scenario seriously.

[Miracles]

Trunks creates an alternate world when he kept Goku alive by going back in the past.
Therefore we have Trunks future world [universe 7] where Goku died and the past world [universe 7] where Goku is alive.
This equals only two different worlds in universe 7, past and future!

Where does Cell's appearance fit in all this...?

Cell first appears in the same alternate future world [where Goku is dead] three years later.
He finds out that the androids in this future world are already beaten.
That's because Trunks came back from the past world where the Z team already defeated perfect Cell and disposed of them.
So Trunks was heading back to the past world to let everyone know he defeated the androids in his future world too.
This is when Cell wasted Trunks. Then took the time machine and went four years back into the past.
Arriving one year before Trunks came and killed Freeza. Before Goku showed up to give him the medicine.
This is why Trunks was still able to freely travel because Cell killed Trunks three years later in the future world. Not realizing Trunks had already been to the past [Goku being alive].
Therefore that past world Trunks was not effected by the death of him in the future.

That's mostly how it goes but the Trunks killed by Cell can't be the one from the Cell Games since that one wouldn't be that weak and could handle Cell (and would be expecting him anyway). It still applies because we can just argue Cell travelling further back "rewrote" that timeline so it now includes him or something.

What people forget is that there is only one Time Ring so they have to include that in their reasoning. The three/four timelines theory is now dead.

Cell killed Trunks by a surprise attack. Trunks even mentions that to Cell before killing him in his future world.

[alakazam^]

Hasn't anyone thought about the possibility that "Rage" is just a stronger Super Saiyajin and the blue aura is just a visual representation? I wouldn't be surprised if, in-universe, no one saw a blue aura in there.

Gowasu did not say anything new in this chapter. Only Kaioshins can use Time Ring.
We just do not know if he was talking about some rule imposed by the gods, or if he actually had some blockage for someone other than Kaioshin (something never said throughout the manga).
Can not consider incoherence

There's a difference between "can't" and "not allowed to". The manga uses "can't" (at least in this chapter) and the anime uses "allowed to".

For me, the biggest problem is Gowasu being in the middle of a situation where a person used a Time Ring when his own logic says he couldn't and using it as an example of why someone else couldn't do it either.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

[alakazam^]

Cell killed Trunks by a surprise attack. Trunks even mentions that to Cell before killing him in his future world.

But any Trunks that meets Cell in the past will be expecting him in the future.

[LightBing]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

The Mafuba was to seal Future Zamasu, power doesn't really matter against Immortality. Vegeta was given the task to handle Goku Black and he did. I re-read the manga to be sure and it's completely reasonable that Goku didn't use 100% Blue until this moment.

Even when Black was evolving until reaching Rosé, Goku asked Vegeta if he needed a hand. Vegeta said just handle Zamasu to stop the healing and I can win. Vegeta failed but at that point Goku had already used Blue against Zamasu. Even if Goku mistrusted that Vegeta couldn't handle Black it would be out-of character for him to step over Vegeta's fighting spirit. Even worse with a technique that isn't proven, which Goku mentions and is visible when his body starts suffering.

100% SSJ Blue moment to be used was exactly then. Toyotarõ did a great job writing that. What he did wrong was, contrary to Trunks healing, not foreshadow it. It literally comes out of nowhere. It should at the very least be like Vegeta learning SSJG and applying it. He gave the character a struggle, then time to overcome it and then the result.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

I have to ask: did you read the latest chapter in English? Not as a provocation, mind you, but because these are its main plot points. Trunks did not realize he had this power until this chapter, and they lacked a bigger supply of Senzu beans because they were already destroyed by Zamas with a swift move a couple of chapters ago.

Also, I doubt it's a case of Goku being "insanely strong". Most likely, the fused Zamas is only marginally above his unfused self (Black). But the main issue was that Zamas was immortal and that they needed to find a way to contain him, otherwise it's obvious he would've outlasted them in the end (there's also the fact that both Goku and Vegeta were losing because they had underestimated their adversaries).

Later in the game, Zamas fuses with Black because (apparently) Black is a key part of his "Zero Mortals" Plan. Black risks being killed by Vegeta with the SSB + SSG technique and Zamas would rather share a body with him than losing him since he, that "he" being Zamas, is a weakling alone.

100% SSJ Blue moment to be used was exactly then. Toyotarõ did a great job writing that. What he did wrong was, contrary to Trunks healing, not foreshadow it.

Re-reading the chapters, it's more like he did want to foreshadow it but he ended up doing it somewhat poorly; some tentative emphasis was placed in chapter 22 when Trunks "gripped" Gowasu's hand.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Okay, why doesn't he tell Vegeta about his idea to improve Blue?

I wager it probably had to do with Vegeta's pride. Or Goku's pride. Or Goku being too stupid. Or Vegeta being unable to reach that improvement at the current moment because of some prerequisite we don't know of and that Vegeta lacks.

Although it's plenty reasonable to think Vegeta may be just as good as Goku when it came to "mastering" the SSB we don't really know what's needed of the Saiyan to get there. Also, Vegeta may know what he was supposed to do to master the state - if that was the case, presumably, he would've just been unsuccessful - while only ignoring that Goku had in fact mastered it before they fused.

Yes, it sure was pride. We see the happy face of Goku after Vegeta goes to the RoSaT, determined to beat Black.

But Vegeta really did not know this way to dominate the SSB.
He only realized after merging with Goku. And even knowing, had no previous knowledge and no preparation, while Goku had already thought this

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

The '' perfect '' SSB is as risky as the Kaioken.
Whilst Vegeta was able to restrain Black, and he could seal Zamasu, it was not because he wanted to take the risk that he could die.

When he used the Mafuba, he was already depleted,and he wanted to fight with his own forces against Merged Zamasu (so much that he refused the Potara). Once again, he did not have to take a chance (already having a more viable option).
And Trunks was only discovering his healing ability now.

[MisteryOne]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

I know, I already said that pages aho. The thing is, Vegeta wanted to battle Black alone, its his fault as I said. Then, why does all this talk go from? Goku was forced to use the Mafuba against Future Zamasu. After doing that, he was too weak to use his perfected SSB. They didnt know Trunks could heal, and they only had one senzu left, which they wisely used in Vegetto since he is still stronger than Perfected SSB Goku. Whats the problem?

Toyotaro has definetly prepared all the arc so this moment makes sense. You can complain about how by doing so he made a way worse arc that it could have been, you can argue that there were other ways to do it, but arguing about why Goku didn't use it in-universe before? Seems like people really forgot everything that happened prior to this chapter.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Seems like people really forgot everything that happened prior to this chapter.

Every. Single. Month.

[Miracles]

Cell killed Trunks by a surprise attack. Trunks even mentions that to Cell before killing him in his future world.

But any Trunks that meets Cell in the past will be expecting him in the future.

Mmm...The Trunks already in the past wouldn't know about his future self being wasted by Cell.
After imperfect Cell fought Piccolo, Trunks was surprised to see Cell and then surmised that it must have been him who used his Time Machine.

[batistabus]

That panel tell us nothing about how a Saiyan can achieve SSJ3. Only that uses too much energy. How did Goku unlocked that form? By being angrier? Screaming more than a SSJ2?!
"Ki usage" is vague. I can apply that to anything that uses Ki in this franchise.

Just like Goku could "feel" there was something beyond Super Saiyan when training with Gohan, he must have felt that there was something beyond Super Saiyan 2. Trunks describes this feeling earlier in this arc. Where mastery of Super Saiyan and potential for growth were required for Super Saiyan 2, it's safe to say you can scale that up one for Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan Rage exists because of anger, which isn't really unique in Dragon Ball, while possibly bringing in god ki, which is unrelated to anger.

Ah yes, the Saiyan pride, or rather the plot device we need to artificially make easy to solve problems much harder under the guise of a character trait. A true staple of later DB that needs to fuck. off.

If your problem is that you don't like the main characters, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Kanassa]

Kinda like how Vegeta wouldn't even fuse with Goku to stop a fused Zamasu.

Which was a totally moronic thing in both the anime and manga, Vegeta got over his stupid inferiority complex with Goku before, stop writing him like he hasn't just to retread old ground some more. Why the hell is GT the only thing that actually respect this development for him?

In the anime, Vegeta refused for about a second, and really that was just a gut reaction to a suggestion that to his knowledge would leave him fused with GOku forever. After a second of hesitation, he immediately went ''What the hell'' and agreed.

[alakazam^]

Couldn't Zamasu's attendant abilities be a somewhat foreshadow to Trunks'? They're not directly related but we already knew Trunks trained under Kaioushin, we know what Kibito can do and we were introduced to a soon-to-be-Kaioushin and what he could do (Kibito might as well be a future Kaioushin, that'd be neat).

Maybe it complicates things more because Trunks doesn't Kaikai anywhere nor summons bricks but whatever. This take on Trunks is interesting but I wonder if it was a good decision, won't that affect the series in some way? We are already wondering why Gohan doen't have any abilities or why Kaioushin didn't recognize the dance back in the Boo arc.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Couldn't Zamasu's attendant abilities be a somewhat foreshadow to Trunks'? They're not directly related but we already knew Trunks trained under Kaioushin, we know what Kibito can do and we were introduced to a soon-to-be-Kaioushin and what he could do (Kibito might as well be a future Kaioushin, that'd be neat).

If you can point to one person who was under that impression beforehand, I'd consider it foreshadowing.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.

The issue is that did Goku not even need to learn the Mafuba if he could contain the power of SSJB and be insanely strong as a result. Hell, Vegeta could have learned the Mafuba while Goku just contained the power of SSJB and one shot SSJR Goku Black when they go back to the future again. And if Goku's body gets severely damaged as a result of contain the power of SSJB, Future Trunks can heal them. Or they can use senzu.

I have to ask: did you read the latest chapter in English? Not as a provocation, mind you, but because these are its main plot points. Trunks did not realize he had this power until this chapter, and they lacked a bigger supply of Senzu beans because they were already destroyed by Zamas with a swift move a couple of chapters ago.

Also, I doubt it's a case of Goku being "insanely strong". Most likely, the fused Zamas is only marginally above his unfused self (Black). But the main issue was that Zamas was immortal and that they needed to find a way to contain him, otherwise it's obvious he would've outlasted them in the end (there's also the fact that both Goku and Vegeta were losing because they had underestimated their adversaries).

Later in the game, Zamas fuses with Black because (apparently) Black is a key part of his "Zero Mortals" Plan. Black risks being killed by Vegeta with the SSB + SSG technique and Zamas would rather share a body with him than losing him since he, that "he" being Zamas, is a weakling alone.

Future Trunks not being told about being able to heal people by Future Kaioshin is still quite a dumb. I mean, not being informed about that could potentially lives is ridiculous. I can appreciate the foreshadowing of it, but I just find it really weird how Future Trunks doesn't mention to Kaioshin, after Kaioshin saves him for SSJR Goku Black, that he was his student when he met in his timeline. I mean, he even meets Gowasu and is informed by him that he is Lord of Lords and that Zamasu was his apprentice. Future Trunks could have chimed in at any point and said that he was an apprentice of a Lord of Lords as well and he could have been told that he had healing powers right there and then by Kaioshin. And why did Goku and Vegeta not think to bring more senzu with them when they went back to the future a second time?

[TKA]

For a moment I thought you were talking when Toriyama introduced SSJ3 in Buu arc.
Or when Goku/Vegeta got SSJ2, when in the previous arc it was established to be connected to Gohan's hidden potential.

Few things to unpack here.

1. Oh, you mean Super Saiyan 3, which was thoroughly explained to us and never amounted to anything? The same Super Saiyan 3 that was a flawed transformation and is now all but forgotten about? The same super saiyan that wasn't a deus ex machina due to summarily failing every single time it's used? That Super Saiyan 3?

1B. Oh, and you're talking about Super Saiyan 2 as well? The same Super Saiyan 2 that showed up in an arc past its relevance and accomplished fuck all as well? Wow. In addition, the implication was Gohan was able to get to that form because of his hidden potential, NOT that only someone with the same level of potential could get to. Fact is, it was accomplished by training. Full stop.

2. Don't try that false equivalency stuff with me. It's a bad argument. You aren't even saying the plot point you're defending is good; you're saying it's as bad as what came before it. You're damning the "Trunks transforms out of nowhere" plot beat rather than telling us why it was good.

Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is an AssPull. No hints, no foreshadowing, it's just here. At least the Kaioken is a known technique. Here, Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shouldn't raise Goku's power the way that it did.

Goku should have used this sooner. The moment Vegeta went down to Black, he should have used it to stomp him while Trunks handled Future Zamasu. It would have saved countless lives.

1. No, that's not an asspull. It was established that Super Saiyan Blue had drawbacks. From there, it was established that Vegeta found a way around this drawback. All of that is foreshadowing Goku finding his way around it. From there, Toyotaro made it incomplete so it isn't a win button and in doing so also explains why Goku never used it earlier.

2. Right. And Vegeta should've killed Semi-Perfect Cell. And Goku should've made sure he killed Frieza on Namek. And Gohan should've killed Perfect Cell the minute he transformed. This is a story. These are characters. They aren't going to do things that we, the omniscient viewers, who have all the knowledge (both foresight and hindsight) to make the most prudent decisions, think they should do.

In addition to that, the chapter established that this isn't a power Goku's mastered and he's only using it now because he has no choice.

I mean, do you guys even know how story structure works?

[FortuneSSJ]

2. Don't try that false equivalency stuff with me. It's a bad argument. You aren't even saying the plot point you're defending is good; you're saying it's as bad as what came before it. You're damning the "Trunks transforms out of nowhere" plot beat rather than telling us why it was good.

That's because it's a fact SSIkari didn't have any explanation besides being the power of rage, which tells us nothing since that's the trigger for SSJ in the first place.
I just can't play this hypocrite game, where I pretend the original manga did everything right and didn't have any " bullshit, unexplained Super Saiyan transformation", when there was SSJ2 for Goku and Vegeta and SSJ3.

FT Trunks is reduced to a walking senzu on his own arc.

I have this awesome ability that allows me to criticize both products flaws, without need to put one on a pedestal to make the other look bad. Unfortunately seems like a lot of people lack this, so it's either 0/10 or 10/10 for them. One product does everything wrong and the other does everything right.

By the way, following Toyotaro's logic Gohan is a healer too. He got the clothes, trained with the Z-Sword, the Elder Kaioshin danced around him...It fits the description.
FT Trunks doesn't seem to have done anything he didn't. Let's see if Toyotaro doesn't conveniently forget that.

[Bullza]

Can you believe Gohan still hasn't made a single appearance in this manga since Chapter 4.