Olympian wrote:their fanbases. They all had mini character arcs going on that tied to moments in the TOP. Kuririn for example is basically eliminated because of #18 and that bond is later explored fully when she faces the TriodeDangers.
Fanbases shouldn't mean shit to a writer. Dragonball is popular enough and grandfathered in enough that there is no longer any need to appeal to fanbases. The writing should come first in all things.
And if we're talking about 18, the manga has handled her better than the anime by virtue of giving her a character other than "I love Krillin" and "I love 17!" One of the best moments for the character in the manga was in the flashback to the Cell Games where she just flies off and tells 17 they won't meet again. That's the coolness the character displayed in the Android arc that got shelved by later adaptations.
And if we're talking about the development of her relationship with Krillin, the manga ALSO has that, by something as simple as 18 hating Frieza.
You are right in pointing out the Manga never promotes the return of old favorites like the show did but they are nonetheless.
If the manga never pretends they're important, and never makes a big deal about them returning (and even downplays their return by making it clear that they're just asses to fill the 10-man quota), if you are disappointed by their performance then that's entirely on you and not the manga.
I find the notion that you can`t make these humans "combat useful" unless vis a vis with fanfiction to be rather silly
I strongly urge you to reread what I said.
Anyone can come up with ways to make the humans more useful. Example:
1. They're all descended from ancient aliens.
2. They spontaneously develop god ki from prolonged exposure to Goku and Vegeta
3. Offscreen training
All of those are ways the humans can be better. There exists infinite other ways, as seen in the many bad/good/mediocre fanfics out there.
That isn't what I was discussing. My point was strictly that the characters weren't written to be combatants in Toriyama's manga, and them being combatants here in Toyotaro's manga is something NOBODY should rightfully expect.
when Toryama was the one who always had them tag along behind Goku for 90% of his whole Manga.
Yes, they tag along to comment on the sidelines and mention how weak they are. They tag along to get killed by Nappa and Saibamen. They tag along to mention how strong Frieza and Cold are. They tag along to be used as fodder for 19 and 20 to make them imposing. They tag along to the Cell games to get beat up by Cell Jrs to motivate Gohan. They're around in the Buu arc to get killed and eaten by Buu.
They're being used here exactly as they have been used previously.
The one arc where the human squad does the least is the Buu arc and you still had things like Tenshinhan and Chiatzu being the only beings alive from Buu`s genocidal attack, Yamcha searching the Dragon Balls with #18, a mini Tournament setting Kuririn as the strongest active Human on the planet, Tenshinhan saving both Goku and Gohan and everybody at the end giving energy for Goku. They all contribute in small parts to the whole thing whether they were outclassed or retired.
Let's, for a second, ignore that most of the stuff you mentioned happened offscreen, was not given any importance and only happened because the villains didn't care about them. Let's ignore ALL of that for my next point.
The humans contributed to the plot. By getting taken out by Frost, they facilitated by Frost getting eliminated as well as an entire universe. If Frost hadn't taken them out, he wouldn't have trusted Frieza enough.
And outclassed as they may be, they aren`t forgotten or brushed aside.
We reading the same series here? This is the same series where the humans' deaths were so irrelevant that Buu killed them offscreen. Come on, man. Take off the fandom glasses and start looking at the series objectively. Or don't. It's not my place to tell someone how to enjoy the franchise, but if we're going to continue this discussion you need to understand that I'll never acknowledge an argument that comes from a place of fandom, or power level-worship.
Talk to me about why the earthlings sticking around makes the arc flow better. Tell me why their presence enhances the storytelling taking place. Tell me how them getting eliminated makes the storytelling worse. If we're gonna be hung up on character-worship, then I can endlessly complain about universe 9 getting destroyed without knocking anyone out. I like Dragonball for its writing.
Exline wrote:It doesn't matter if the manga promised they would be big players or not.
What? Of course it does. If we subscribe to the logic it doesn't, then I can complain about why Puar, or Korin aren't in this tournament. Or, less fantastically, I can complain about Basil getting eliminated in such unceremonious fashion. Which would be dumb.
No one was expecting them to do phenomenal in the tournament. But like everyone else is stating, they are fan favorites
I'm a fan. Whether they're fighters and doing "Cool" stuff or not doesn't matter to me; all that matters is they're consistent and interesting. I saw them get eliminated and I thought "Oh, that's a great decision. Yeah, I'm liking this pace." The Buu arc and latter Cell Arc must've been heartbreaking to you.
and these characters deserve to be treated with the respect that their respective audiences are giving.
They don't deserve anything. They're fictitious characters. What they "deserve" is to serve the plot in a consistent way. What the audience wants means nothing (or SHOULD mean nothing, as any good writer will tell you).
And who are you to say that Roshi has to remain on the sidelines because he's passed the baton to the new generation?
Who am I to say? I'm just a guy who read Toriyama's manga and saw that that was his character arc. And he literally says this as he leaves everything to Tenshinhan against King Piccolo. That was literally, and I mean quite literally, his character arc: being surpassed, acknowledging it, and letting his pupils take over.
The whole purpose of his mini-arc in this tournament, like someone stated, is that he's become inspired by the new generation and wants to keep pushing himself to further his expertise?
Right. Inspired by the new generation. Why didn't any of that happen when Piccolo Jr showed up? Or Raditz? Why didn't he go to Namek too? Why not help with the Androids, or Cell? It's just fan pandering bollsheet that goes against what the original manga established, and regresses his character. When he was inspired by the next generation and joined the tournament, he STILL lost to Tenshinhan and acknowledged his time was up. All of this happened, but the Super anime had him showing up Ten AND Krillin, which goes against what was established beforehand.
Who wouldn't want to see Krillin engage with an opponent? Same with Tien and Roshi. It'd be fanservice, but fanservice isn't bad when it's done right.
I wouldn't mind seeing Krillin being "badass" if it didn't intrude on the plot. Clearly the mangaka, as he plotted this battle's outline, determined that would be a waste of time. I agree with his decision since this led to at least 10 characters being eliminated instead of wasting pages on Krillin fighting Mr. Meeseeks or whatever other pointless character he fought in the anime.
You talk a lot of smack about fan fiction and fan service as if they're awful concepts.
Those things are fine. What isn't fine is when fans try to dictate how legitimate work should be done. Any writer worth his salt ignores the fanbase and doesn't let them dictate to him/her how to write. You see, fans come because a writer puts their ideas out there. If you then start pandering, you're going to run your series into the ground as you make decisions to please them. I've seen it happen multiple times with multiple franchises.
Toriyama, to his credit, is notorious for doing the opposite of what fans want, and he does so for the better. If you want pandering fanservice shit, it's all over the video games, and literally every other aspect of this multimedia franchise. The manga is the one place where we're being told a story that isn't trying to make every single sect of the fandom feel good; it's just telling a story.
We expect character interactions like krillin and Android 18 sharing their moments.
Your expectations coming in mean nothing. What matters is what the manga depicts. That's where you should draw your expectations from. As for your example, the manga depicts their relationship without going for the low-hanging fruit of "we love each other so much!" Instead, we get just little details like 18 staring angrily at Frieza, which are phenomenal. It's also worth nothing that the tournament of power is just 2 chapters in.
You're so blinded by the fact that the story of Dragon should maintain reality when the whole story is in fact a fantasy.
Strange you say I'm blinded when I'm easily the most open-minded person here in terms of the manga. I'm not in this thread crying and complaining every time spoilers come out. I'm not in here complaining about my favorites getting eliminated. I'm not in here complaining about Black not being "cool" anymore, etc. I'm just here for a well-written, consistent story.
Just because the Earthlings are weak does not mean they cannot contribute somewhat.
Scroll up and read something I said earlier in this comment.
I'll state again that I am content with Krillin and Tien's elimination. However Krillin deserved more panels instead of a surprise attack by Frost. Both their eliminations were pretty lackluster but the overall chapter makes up for it for being well-written and moving at a reasonable pace.
Krillin doesn't deserve anything; he's a fictional character who has never been treated with supreme gravitas. Rather, he's been treated comedically since his first appearances. Why is this fandom so obsessed with people being taken seriously when the manga is rife with comedy?
