"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Duo]

In spite of any complaints that have been taking place, I just love how raw the fight between Goku and Zamasu got. Trunks was pretty great with how he handled things as well. The artwork through all of this just keeps being top of the line.

Oh, and Vegeta has a new thing apparently. That was pretty cool too.

If you ever want to run some enjoyable mental gymnastics, just imagine that this manga were being adapted to anime in the same way that the original Dragon Ball was. The fight against merged Zamasu would be at least ten episodes ongoing by now.

[TKA]

It's available officially now.

Having read that, pretty damn good. And the complaints are unfounded, yet again.

Gamma Burst Flash, eh? Pretty cool name. Surprised Vegeta doesn't have a move named "Supernova (or Hypernova)" yet.

[emperior]

In spite of any complaints that have been taking place, I just love how raw the fight between Goku and Zamasu got. Trunks was pretty great with how he handled things as well. The artwork through all of this just keeps being top of the line.

Oh, and Vegeta has a new thing apparently. That was pretty cool too.

If you ever want to run some enjoyable mental gymnastics, just imagine that this manga were being adapted to anime in the same way that the original Dragon Ball was. The fight against merged Zamasu would be at least ten episodes ongoing by now.

If the manga was animated without fillers I doubt the battile would last 10 episodes. It would be more around 3-4 episodes.

[The gr]

This is how toyo draw Freeza [spoiler][/spoiler]this one is my favorite[spoiler][/spoiler]I'm just eager to see toyo drawing golden frieza action

[Xeztin]

This is how toyo draw Freeza [spoiler][/spoiler]this one is my favorite[spoiler][/spoiler]I'm just eager to see toyo drawing golden frieza action

This is why I crave he finishes RoF one day.

[Gog]

You bring up some great points.

I'm not sure why:

>Goku lived with a Hakaishin and trained under a Hakaishin's sensei
>Beerus used a technique implied to be a Hakaishin thing
>Goku reveals he'd learned the technique

But, let's break down this point a bit. Why would Goku learn the technique? What possible reason for there would there be? And how would he even know of it in the first place, perhaps Whis seeing the potential in him decided to teach him the technique for when he'll become a God of Destruction? To put it simply there's just absolutely no way or reason for Goku to have realistically have learned it. Or if there was it just had absolutely no foreshadowing to it. And there would have been no way we could ever have possibly predicted it.

...is somehow so out of left field that it's actually cause for concern. I wasn't expecting it, sure, but it lines up reasonably well, and my not having expected it is kind of the point.

But, to begin I feel like we should start off with what an N.F.N.P.D is. A N.F.N.P.D at the end of the day is a narratively important plot point that’s brought up half way through or during a later part of the story. Which has absolutely no foreshadowing to it in anyway shape or form. But, that’s the problem with it at the end of the day, it’s perfectly fine to not suspect an important narrative plot that’s designed to be shocking. But, a narrative plot point that has no foreshadowing to it is a N.F.N.P.D. Plain and simple.

And it’s a shame too considering how easy it would have been to not make it one. Have Beerus throw a line near the beginning of the arc about how being a God of Destruction grants you a lot of skills, and have Goku reply with a "I know." Or heck, maybe Whis throws out a line of "Goku you've learned a lot under me." If those were the case this discussion wouldn't even be happening if that were the case.

It would be like if, in the Saiyan arc, Goku left Kaio's with no mention or reference to the Kaioken. Then, while Goku's on his way back to Enma's, some random guy shows up to Kaio's to fight him. Kaio beats him soundly using his technique: the Kaioken! Once Goku fights Nappa, we then see him use the Kaioken, as a nice little twist. It wasn't as obviously foreshadowed, but it lines up well enough.

But, isn't that the whole point of Nappa? He's the big tough minion who got beat up by Goku to show off his new technique so it won't come completely out of nowhere when he fights against Vegeta. Also, Kaio easily beating a random guy who shows up with the Kaio Ken isn't foreshadowing, well it is but it's so blatant and not want I was implying in regards to foreshadowing.

I understand the two scenarios aren't 100% analogous, but the point is that in that hypothetical alternate take, and in the case of the deletion technique in the manga, seeds were planted that were later cultivated. Not every bit of foreshadowing has to be painfully-clearly telegraphed.

Seeds where never planted. It's the equivalent of Goku in the Android Saga magically ascending past the limit of Super Saiyan when it wasn't stated or implied before hand. It works, but by God does it come out of nowhere. And I don't want to repeat myself foreshadowing isn't going ahead, and stating clear cut what the heroes/villains are using. It's simply put just a throw away line that seems inconsequential at first, but later reveals that its rather the super duper strong move (like the Delete™ technique he learned in Chapter 25.)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So your only problem is that it wasn't alluded to beforehand? Fine, but you still have to explain why surprises are inherently problematic. And make no mistake, that is exactly what you're saying.

[Duo]

If the manga was animated without fillers I doubt the battile would last 10 episodes. It would be more around 3-4 episodes.

I definitely intended it as though filler would be added.

[KidGokuDB]

It's strange to see some fans focus so much on the no foreshadowing of Goku using the Hakai.

I mean Toyotaro might release a simple illustration on Goku learning how to do it in the next manga volume (with this chapter in it) for all we know. Take a look at his work in previous volumes. I don't know if that was brought up. But yeah, I think some people might be jumping the gun too early on this move not being explained.

[Gog]

So your only problem is that it wasn't alluded to beforehand? Fine, but you still have to explain why surprises are inherently problematic. And make no mistake, that is exactly what you're saying.

Thanks, anyway I never once stated that a surprises is inherently problematic. Surprises that aren't alluded to in anyway (especially for gargantuan reveals such as this) are where I draw the line to be honest. But, haven't I already explained why that's the case? Regardless N.F.N.P.D's are an inherently bad element in story telling. Stuff like Trunks SSJR, Zamasu's Cloud Form arose from such narrative story elements. Its best to throw a one liner early on that seems inconsequential at first, but later is revealed to be so much more.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I mean Toyotaro might release a simple illustration on Goku learning how to do it in the next manga volume (with this chapter in it) for all we know.

We won't get an extra chapter to see how he learned it, because he was never taught. This is his first time doing it, he mimicked Beerus.

[KidGokuDB]

I mean Toyotaro might release a simple illustration on Goku learning how to do it in the next manga volume (with this chapter in it) for all we know.

We won't get an extra chapter to see how he learned it, because he was never taught. This is his first time doing it, he mimicked Beerus.

We can still find out how he saw or knew about it in the first place to do the move if anything. And I'm not necessarily talking about an extra chapter than I am of a page of something like this:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/870497455783034881

I remember when some people were asking why Zamasu didn't steal someone like Monaka's body considering he won the last tournament, and Toyotaro put out a page out like this one. It's little details like this that can help explain it better.

[HeroR]

I mean Toyotaro might release a simple illustration on Goku learning how to do it in the next manga volume (with this chapter in it) for all we know.

We won't get an extra chapter to see how he learned it, because he was never taught. This is his first time doing it, he mimicked Beerus.

We can still find out how he saw or knew about it in the first place to do the move if anything. And I'm not necessarily talking about an extra chapter than I am of a page of something like this:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/870497455783034881

I remember when some people were asking why Zamasu didn't steal someone like Monaka's body considering he won the last tournament, and Toyotaro put out a page out like this one. It's little details like this that can help explain it better.

It was also a joke panel too.

[KidGokuDB]

I won't deny that, but it's a fun way for Toyo to add to the story of what's already there.

[sintzu]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/870497455783034881

I remember when some people were asking why Zamasu didn't steal someone like Monaka's body considering he won the last tournament, and Toyotaro put out a page out like this one. It's little details like this that can help explain it better.

The attention to detail is what makes this so close to the original cause he makes sure that every potential question will be answered, even ones not many would think of like this one.

[avasatu]

Goku using Hakai is sweet. He has every reason to want to use such a strong technique and begin mastering energy of destruction. I think it would have been worse if they had blatantly told us he was working on it; the surprise factor was cool. However, in general, it's better to leave clues ahead of time.

My issue currently is that we have recently seen that if you're strong enough, Hakai can be resisted and controlled. Wasn't merged Zamasu strong enough??? I mean, he was merged frickin Zamasu, yet he just got half of his body annihilated with no resistance.

[Gig]

My issue currently is that we have recently seen that if you're strong enough, Hakai can be resisted and controlled. Wasn't merged Zamasu strong enough??? I mean, he was merged frickin Zamasu, yet he just got half of his body annihilated with no resistance.

Here you are comparing an anime scene (episode 95) with a manga scene (chapter 25), right? What's a fact in the anime isn't necessarily a fact in the manga, and vice-versa. Furthermore, the ball of "power of destruction" we just saw in episode 95 does not seem exactly the same "hakai" technique used against Zamasu (and against the evil ghost in the Arale episode) by Beerus, as that one was invisible and did not look like a ball. So maybe the long-distance "energy ball" variant is less effective than the short-distance "invisible" variant. Or Sidra limited the amount of energy due to it having to be used by a mere mortal... who knows?
Just to say that what we saw in episode 95 may be very different from chapter 25, I don't think we can compare the strenght needed to resist those techniques...

@Everyone:
Also, searching for paralles between manga and anime... guys, do you think that Toriyama's outline included something like "the enemy produces clones of himself over and over"? Because that seems a strange coincidence that in the anime Black created clones of himself (in badly managed scenes) and in the manga Zamasu multiplies himself... even if maybe this may turn out to be the manga equivalent of the "cloud universal Zamasu".

However, I'm curious to find out why this is happening...

About Goku learning "Hakai" technique, in the manga we never saw him witnessing Beerus using it, IIRC... maybe that happened "off-screen" ("off-page"?) and Toyotaro may show it in a short special like the two-pages special which shows the moment Pilaf gang returned babies with a wish, a moment before the death of Piccolo in the Androids saga in FT's timeline. However we know that Goku learned Kamehameha after seeing it only once, but also that the first times it wasn't very strong. So it is possible he learned Hakai after seeing it at least once off-screen, but this is his first try and it wasn't effective enough to obliterate Zamasu.

[Kunzait_83]

I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.

And it was just as bad then. How is this an argument? "The original manga had bad things that took people's immersion away and lessened their enjoyment, so this means Super should too."

Nothing about ANY of the plot points mentioned (Vegeta creating artificial moonlight, Kaioshin earrings being used for fusion, etc) has EVER at ANY point in time lessened my enjoyment or "broke my immersion". Not because "I was a kid" or "didn't have to wait very long for episodes" (I actually did, I was actually following this shit in its original Japanese run back in the day, and had to wait at least a month for tapes with new episodes collected from the past several weeks worth of Japanese TV airings to drop on fansubber listings).

No, it didn't ruin anything for me because DB is a fucking FANTASY show. Its taken from ancient kung fu fables about magic and mysticism and gods and demons and the like. This is a series where every character of note knows how to fly, where handheld Capsules that can store entire houses and vehicles are normal and commonplace, where there's shape changing animal people and dinosaurs living among both ancient temples and futuristic high tech cities, and where Goku learns one of his most deadly kung fu techniques from a god who lives on a small little planet in the afterlife and who looks like a catfish person. Crazy shit just popping up out of nowhere SHOULD BE the order of the day here. If anything, it makes the series unpredictable and thus exciting.

If anything, titles like One Piece which foreshadow and tightly connect everything together within an inch of its fucking life, I would argue is actually MUCH WORSE. Nothing ever gets to feel truly spontaneous or out of the blue (because its all been carefully planned to the tiniest detail at every step), and the universe is never at any point allowed any room to breathe, with every single character or action (no matter how minor or obscure or seemingly meaningless) always being directly connected to or having relevance to some other thing either shortly or way further down the line.

THAT sort of shit actually gets old and can go too far too you know. It suffocates the story and makes the world the characters live in feel impossibly small and cramped and not at all like there's other people within this world who are living their own lives and going through their own adventures and struggles that are totally apart from and divorced from the main story.

The secret miracle behind Toriyama's storytelling is that even though he writes by the seat of his pants, he's VERY uniquely skilled at making some things APPEAR as if they were planned all along even if they weren't. And he doesn't go too over the top with this either, which allows the DB universe appear vast and sprawling and capable of surprising you with anything out of nowhere, while giving it JUST enough of a sense of structure (however loose) to feel like the story is always headed someplace and has forward momentum and a sense of purpose.

Being loose and freewheeling with its story is a CRUCIAL part of DB's core creative identity and is a staple of Toriyama's work in general even beyond DB. If you can't appreciate this, then I'd argue that DB just isn't your type of series.

[MCDaveG]

I don't know, maybe it's the culture nowadays or that we were kids back then... Things like ''That apple you ate 8 years ago, was from gods and now you can unlock hidden potential to beat these guys'' was totally normal.
All kid tv shows had asspulls

[LightBing]

I don't know, maybe it's the culture nowadays or that we were kids back then... Things like ''That apple you ate 8 years ago, was from gods and now you can unlock hidden potential to beat these guys'' was totally normal.
All kid tv shows had asspulls

It's like what I wrote a few pages back, people suffer from cognitive dissonance. Part of it is because people first watched/read the show as kids, when we are more accepting of ideas and don't bother following a set of scrutiny.
Meaning these ideas are now as real as the sun coming up every morning, something which isn't questioned.

Another part of it is beliefs. The most famous is probably Trunks and Goten getting SSJ easily. People got angry/disappointed and called it an asspull because to them SSJ is legendary and only a few should have it. When the author never put any restrictions on it.
Here it's about the Hakai which should only belong to the Hakaishins because people like to think it's special.