"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:13 am

Miracles wrote:
Exline wrote:I may have been overexaggerting for this chapter in particular. I gave it a 3rd read and notice he didn't really disappoint with the panels as much this time for me. But I have felt this way constantly with other chapters. Moreso the beginning of this series.

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

If we remove that panel, I think we can get a better sense of pace in the battle. We're more used to much faster battles like in the anime and original manga.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The kick looks much faster now without a panel of it slowly winding up. Especially when the kick doesn't have much impact on it. If it doesn't amount to anything, what is the need for a panel such as this? It works better in the later half of the chapter in scenarios such as where Jiren clenches his fist and prepares to uppercut Hit. But here, it doesn't really add anything imo. It's useless and unnecessary. I only refer to it that way because it would've been fine without it. I see it as a waste of time on Toyotaro's part as well. It's not the only panel I have a problem with it, but it's one of a few found in multiple chapters.

Toriyama captures the pace of the battle better with storyboarding like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
He makes the attack look fierce, powerful and fast.
We did not need to see Goku pull his fist back to give more force behind his punch. It is implied immediately once we see the panel.
In the following page, Toriyama also slows down the pace to demonstrate the emotion the antagonist is feeling after the attack. Something Toyotaro has trouble conveying sometimes. Most of the time he excels at it, but sometimes he doesn't.


Also pages like these:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Where it's just a page of nothing but dialogue with multiple panels I have a problem with as well. I do enjoy the dialogue and I understand that if it were all clumped into fewer panels, than it would not be as great. The panels themselves are what bore me. There is nothing to them. It just changes to someone else's face nearly each sentence and it's annoying. I feel Toyotaro could have definitely done much better with these scenes. It sometimes seems that he is trying to make these monthly chapters seem exactly like an anime episode which I personally don't think works too well. Why make a comic feel less of a comic?

Whilst discussing about how to beat Jiren, the panel could be focused just on him walking towards them whilst they discuss what they plan to do with him. But that's not what happen's here. To me, it's honestly too many expressions for one page. And the large quantity of panels on this page just for dialogue also makes it feel bloated because it seems unnecessary and be done with shorter. The dialogue would have to be dialed back, but I think it'd be for the better in cases like these.

( Apologies for my ranting, I only want Toyotaro to get better ); )
Toyotaro demonstrating Hit following up with a kick after his punch being blocked is called choreography. It's not to focus so much on high speed fighting. Toriyama has done this as well in his panels.
Also, those speech panels are necessary as they progress the story through characters dialogue-ing between each other. Giving us development on Hit's powers and Goku's mindset for the battle is vital.
Bergamo wrote:I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.
The extra dramatic panels would have brought nothing new to the audience as we already saw Jiren just lol pwn Goku and Hit at the same time before.
The Kamehameha doing nothing to Jiren and appearing quickly out of the smoke is fitting in a non competitive fight displaying Jiren's dominance.
What's the benefit of adding choreography if it actually ends up hurting the pacing of the action more than helping it?
Though I don't I agree with all his points, I think the general idea's of the fights being more concise in terms of panelling, with instead of needlessly using panel space to convey unnecessary levels of motion, especially when done poorly like in the above example, and just getting to the effective point, could have definitely benefitted some of the fight scenes this chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:00 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Exline wrote:I may have been overexaggerting for this chapter in particular. I gave it a 3rd read and notice he didn't really disappoint with the panels as much this time for me. But I have felt this way constantly with other chapters. Moreso the beginning of this series.

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

If we remove that panel, I think we can get a better sense of pace in the battle. We're more used to much faster battles like in the anime and original manga.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The kick looks much faster now without a panel of it slowly winding up. Especially when the kick doesn't have much impact on it. If it doesn't amount to anything, what is the need for a panel such as this? It works better in the later half of the chapter in scenarios such as where Jiren clenches his fist and prepares to uppercut Hit. But here, it doesn't really add anything imo. It's useless and unnecessary. I only refer to it that way because it would've been fine without it. I see it as a waste of time on Toyotaro's part as well. It's not the only panel I have a problem with it, but it's one of a few found in multiple chapters.

Toriyama captures the pace of the battle better with storyboarding like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
He makes the attack look fierce, powerful and fast.
We did not need to see Goku pull his fist back to give more force behind his punch. It is implied immediately once we see the panel.
In the following page, Toriyama also slows down the pace to demonstrate the emotion the antagonist is feeling after the attack. Something Toyotaro has trouble conveying sometimes. Most of the time he excels at it, but sometimes he doesn't.


Also pages like these:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Where it's just a page of nothing but dialogue with multiple panels I have a problem with as well. I do enjoy the dialogue and I understand that if it were all clumped into fewer panels, than it would not be as great. The panels themselves are what bore me. There is nothing to them. It just changes to someone else's face nearly each sentence and it's annoying. I feel Toyotaro could have definitely done much better with these scenes. It sometimes seems that he is trying to make these monthly chapters seem exactly like an anime episode which I personally don't think works too well. Why make a comic feel less of a comic?

Whilst discussing about how to beat Jiren, the panel could be focused just on him walking towards them whilst they discuss what they plan to do with him. But that's not what happen's here. To me, it's honestly too many expressions for one page. And the large quantity of panels on this page just for dialogue also makes it feel bloated because it seems unnecessary and be done with shorter. The dialogue would have to be dialed back, but I think it'd be for the better in cases like these.

( Apologies for my ranting, I only want Toyotaro to get better ); )
Toyotaro demonstrating Hit following up with a kick after his punch being blocked is called choreography. It's not to focus so much on high speed fighting. Toriyama has done this as well in his panels.
Also, those speech panels are necessary as they progress the story through characters dialogue-ing between each other. Giving us development on Hit's powers and Goku's mindset for the battle is vital.
Bergamo wrote:I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.
The extra dramatic panels would have brought nothing new to the audience as we already saw Jiren just lol pwn Goku and Hit at the same time before.
The Kamehameha doing nothing to Jiren and appearing quickly out of the smoke is fitting in a non competitive fight displaying Jiren's dominance.
What's the benefit of adding choreography if it actually ends up hurting the pacing of the action more than helping it?
Though I don't I agree with all his points, I think the general idea's of the fights being more concise in terms of panelling, with instead of needlessly using panel space to convey unnecessary levels of motion, especially when done poorly like in the above example, and just getting to the effective point, could have definitely benefited some of the fight scenes this chapter.
What points did you disagree with? It seems you agree with most of what I'm saying. I may have just not explained this properly. I'm not too bothered by that panel anyways, it was just a minor nitpick I wanted to discuss.

I feel like everyone thinks that I want no scenes like that. I just meant that panel in particular. It was unneeded and honestly slowed the pace of the fight at hand. And the panel with the actual kick could have been bigger without it.

I'm not saying there is no need for panels like that, it's just that transitory panel is so small that it doesn't really add much and looks rather awkward. I'm mostly trying to imply that Toyotaro could do better with his storyboarding.

Toriyama uses transitory panels as well, but he did it right. I didn't feel that way about that panel. I felt the pace of the fight would have felt much more intense without it.

I may be completely wrong on this since so many disagree haha. I already explained my point a little more in my reply with TKA a while ago. I'd use more examples to support my claim but it's honestly too time-consuming to do.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:45 am

I still don't know why some people think this arc feels rushed in the manga. Do you want 20 chapters of a 45 min fight or something? That would just make it stupid, just like the anime fucked it up when they made the tournament longer than it should have been. Anyway, this tournament arc will most likely last until December and it will be the longest arc in Super's manga.

Quick thoughts on the chapter: Probably the weakest out of the 3 of the tournament but I don't really see any major problems with it. Goku being SSJ2 doesn't bother me, nor does the Hit elimination. Yea the art was not that great in some panels but that's all I can say negative about it.

I don't see Goku vs Jiren fighting in the next chapter. I hope for some Vegeta action or U6 Saiyans.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:04 am

IM21 wrote:I still don't know why some people think this arc feels rushed in the manga. Do you want 20 chapters of a 45 min fight or something? That would just make it stupid, just like the anime fucked it up when they made the tournament longer than it should have been. Anyway, this tournament arc will most likely last until December and it will be the longest arc in Super's manga.

Quick thoughts on the chapter: Probably the weakest out of the 3 of the tournament but I don't really see any major problems with it. Goku being SSJ2 doesn't bother me, nor does the Hit elimination. Yea the art was not that great in some panels but that's all I can say negative about it.

I don't see Goku vs Jiren fighting in the next chapter. I hope for some Vegeta action or U6 Saiyans.
Two reasons I think: the first one is misguided expectations meaning anime expectations; people are used to anime progression which was always a slouch compared to the manga, the second reason is because it was one of the most common criticism made to the manga back when it was actually rushed before it got it's page count up.

I really think a lot of people either didn't read the original manga or read it so long ago that they don't remember it's pacing. Can't see another reason to call the manga pace rushed since the Zamasu Arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:27 am

Exline wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote: Toyotaro demonstrating Hit following up with a kick after his punch being blocked is called choreography. It's not to focus so much on high speed fighting. Toriyama has done this as well in his panels.
Also, those speech panels are necessary as they progress the story through characters dialogue-ing between each other. Giving us development on Hit's powers and Goku's mindset for the battle is vital.

The extra dramatic panels would have brought nothing new to the audience as we already saw Jiren just lol pwn Goku and Hit at the same time before.
The Kamehameha doing nothing to Jiren and appearing quickly out of the smoke is fitting in a non competitive fight displaying Jiren's dominance.
What's the benefit of adding choreography if it actually ends up hurting the pacing of the action more than helping it?
Though I don't I agree with all his points, I think the general idea's of the fights being more concise in terms of panelling, with instead of needlessly using panel space to convey unnecessary levels of motion, especially when done poorly like in the above example, and just getting to the effective point, could have definitely benefited some of the fight scenes this chapter.
What points did you disagree with? It seems you agree with most of what I'm saying. I may have just not explained this properly. I'm not too bothered by that panel anyways, it was just a minor nitpick I wanted to discuss.

I feel like everyone thinks that I want no scenes like that. I just meant that panel in particular. It was unneeded and honestly slowed the pace of the fight at hand. And the panel with the actual kick could have been bigger without it.

I'm not saying there is no need for panels like that, it's just that transitory panel is so small that it doesn't really add much and looks rather awkward. I'm mostly trying to imply that Toyotaro could do better with his storyboarding.

Toriyama uses transitory panels as well, but he did it right. I didn't feel that way about that panel. I felt the pace of the fight would have felt much more intense without it.

I may be completely wrong on this since so many disagree haha. I already explained my point a little more in my reply with TKA a while ago. I'd use more examples to support my claim but it's honestly too time-consuming to do.
I was just saying I was kind of OK with there being dialogue scenes to break up the action. The amount of dialogue was fine. Though I do think they should be framed in a manner that actually reflects something about the setting. If your going to have dialogue, make it engaging visually.

I'm think transitory panels are fine. I'm not suggesting we should do away with them either, I just think its important to recognize that the pace of the fight is more important than merely creating choreography, especially if the choreography looks kind of clunky.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:42 am

Asura wrote:
batistabus wrote:In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren.
Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Whether you think it's in character or not doesn't detract from it being a dick move on Goku's part.
You can't say Goku thought they would have beat Jiren together when he immediately says: Otherwise, we probably don't have a chance. It's the only option I've got.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragono » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:00 am

Asura wrote:
Dragono wrote:Isn't that what Piccolo did to him?
Uh... no? You watched Z right? The first fight in the series where Piccolo and Goku team up to fight his brother Raditz? :think:
Bergamo wrote:Goku tries to help Hit by warning him about Jiren's trap, albeit a bit too late. Also, Goku being a bit of a jerk shouldn't greatly affect your opinion on the chapter. It's kind of par for the course.
Goku being a dick isn't my issue with the chapter, it was just kind of a boring chapter to me that continues to have the same problem as the other chapters in the ToP manga version, everything feels incredibly small with rushed pacing and 2 or 3 people fighting at once while the background is completely empty.
no, Piccolo made Goku fought Raditz by himself for most of that fight while he charged the makankosappo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:43 pm

IM21 wrote:I still don't know why some people think this arc feels rushed in the manga. Do you want 20 chapters of a 45 min fight or something? That would just make it stupid, just like the anime fucked it up when they made the tournament longer than it should have been. Anyway, this tournament arc will most likely last until December and it will be the longest arc in Super's manga.

Quick thoughts on the chapter: Probably the weakest out of the 3 of the tournament but I don't really see any major problems with it. Goku being SSJ2 doesn't bother me, nor does the Hit elimination. Yea the art was not that great in some panels but that's all I can say negative about it.

I don't see Goku vs Jiren fighting in the next chapter. I hope for some Vegeta action or U6 Saiyans.
I don't see Toyotaro rushing the story anymore.

I think people are alarmed because certain events in the anime are happening earlier than expected. I'm kinda glad it is this way. The less Goku the better. Gives others a chance to shine.

And how could it not be? What are they gonna do after that conversation at the end!??!?!??

UI has to be happening next chapter, or Goku's inevitable beatdown to make Jiren seem even stronger. I'm really hoping he implements Omen. I don't see why he won't just cause the anime did it. He came up with the Vegetto inclusion in the FT Arc. Who says he can't take notes from the anime? ;/


I just don't want to see the Spirit Bomb. It was a terrible moment in the special and felt like an excuse to pad it out.
Toyotaro needs to step up his storyboarding as well. This chapter didn't make much of Jiren. All he did was block attacks and it all didn't leave any impact on me. It was only until the fight between Hit and Jiren that i got invested. The fight in the beginning with SSJ2 Goku and Dyspo/Toppo was much more engaging, which is rather odd.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 pm

LightBing wrote:
IM21 wrote:I still don't know why some people think this arc feels rushed in the manga. Do you want 20 chapters of a 45 min fight or something? That would just make it stupid, just like the anime fucked it up when they made the tournament longer than it should have been. Anyway, this tournament arc will most likely last until December and it will be the longest arc in Super's manga.

Quick thoughts on the chapter: Probably the weakest out of the 3 of the tournament but I don't really see any major problems with it. Goku being SSJ2 doesn't bother me, nor does the Hit elimination. Yea the art was not that great in some panels but that's all I can say negative about it.

I don't see Goku vs Jiren fighting in the next chapter. I hope for some Vegeta action or U6 Saiyans.
Two reasons I think: the first one is misguided expectations meaning anime expectations; people are used to anime progression which was always a slouch compared to the manga, the second reason is because it was one of the most common criticism made to the manga back when it was actually rushed before it got it's page count up.

I really think a lot of people either didn't read the original manga or read it so long ago that they don't remember it's pacing. Can't see another reason to call the manga pace rushed since the Zamasu Arc.
The wait between chapters probably adds to this, people probably expect this for a long while then get disappointed when it doesn't last longer. Seeing as the manga is now the only DB thing going until the movie, this effect is likely enhanced further.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:56 pm

JazzMazz wrote:What's the benefit of adding choreography if it actually ends up hurting the pacing of the action more than helping it?
Though I don't I agree with all his points, I think the general idea's of the fights being more concise in terms of panelling, with instead of needlessly using panel space to convey unnecessary levels of motion, especially when done poorly like in the above example, and just getting to the effective point, could have definitely benefitted some of the fight scenes this chapter.
The point of choreography is to show the sequence of movements. It was one follow up move. It didn't slow the pacing at all.
The focus wasn't on high speed combat. Dragonball does that at times too you know. It's a lot of exaggeration going on here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:48 pm

Miracles wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:What's the benefit of adding choreography if it actually ends up hurting the pacing of the action more than helping it?
Though I don't I agree with all his points, I think the general idea's of the fights being more concise in terms of panelling, with instead of needlessly using panel space to convey unnecessary levels of motion, especially when done poorly like in the above example, and just getting to the effective point, could have definitely benefitted some of the fight scenes this chapter.
The point of choreography is to show the sequence of movements. It was one follow up move. It didn't slow the pacing at all.
The focus wasn't on high speed combat. Dragonball does that at times too you know. It's a lot of exaggeration going on here.
Sometimes additional choreography should be removed. Motion in dragon ball manga does not always need to be demonstrated like that.

We don’t always need to see a character wind up an attack, especially an attack that does little to no damage on the opponent.

I think my problem is similar to what someone else in this thread was calling out Toyotaro for. His lack of dynamism in his panels I believe. This chapter really suffered from that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:22 pm

My theory is they'll stretch the manga version of the arc out until October so they can do a teaser chapter of the manga version of the movie in November's VJump since the movie comes out before December's VJump does.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm

Chuquita wrote:My theory is they'll stretch the manga version of the arc out until October so they can do a teaser chapter of the manga version of the movie in November's VJump since the movie comes out before December's VJump does.

So... 6 more chapters of the ToP? That sounds so lame..

6 Chapters to get rid of 7 more universes. That sounds extremely rushed. And why do ppl keep thinking Toyotaro needs to release the manga version of the movie at a time that correlates with the movie...?

We didn’t get that for Res F manga (Edit: Woops nvm we actually did! But is was never finished!?!?)

The FT Arc lasted longer than it did in the anime as well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:50 pm

OLKv3 wrote:I find it hilarious how "holding back" :lol: is now needed to defend the manga
Yep, the anime is better.
Especially when Android 17 can hurt and hold his own against FP Jiren.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:06 pm

The "holding back" in the anime is far worse.

Goku uses his strongest form which he claims has stamina issues but holds back to golden hair forms level of power when you know he could just use those forms.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:09 pm

Exline wrote:
Chuquita wrote:My theory is they'll stretch the manga version of the arc out until October so they can do a teaser chapter of the manga version of the movie in November's VJump since the movie comes out before December's VJump does.

So... 6 more chapters of the ToP? That sounds so lame..

6 Chapters to get rid of 7 more universes. That sounds extremely rushed. And why do ppl keep thinking Toyotaro needs to release the manga version of the movie at a time that correlates with the movie...?

We didn’t get that for Res F manga (Edit: Woops nvm we actually did! But is was never finished!?!?)

The FT Arc lasted longer than it did in the anime as well.

These chapters are 45 pages each though; I feel like with a page count that high and with proper pacing they might be able to pull it off.
Then he could adapt the movie for several months (maybe half a year?) and be behind the TV series by a enough of a gap IF the TV series returns next April.
It's all theory though.

My only other thought is: Maybe have Toyotaro continue with the ToP while a promotional manga for the movie comes out from a different artist instead? Shueisha's got several people to choose from now. Picture a promo manga for the movie drawn by DragonGarowLEE for example.

The F manga never getting finished was kinda disappointing.

I still partly think the reason the Future Trunks arc went on for as long as it did in the manga was the same reason I think the ToP lasted so long in the anime; some behind the scenes stalling for time while they figured out what to do for the next animated Dragon Ball storyline/plot/soft-reboot-of-sorts-that-may-be-this-movie.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:16 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:I find it hilarious how "holding back" :lol: is now needed to defend the manga
Yep, the anime is better.
Especially when Android 17 can hurt and hold his own against FP Jiren.
ToshioWrites wrote:The "holding back" in the anime is far worse.

Goku uses his strongest form which he claims has stamina issues but holds back to golden hair forms level of power when you know he could just use those forms.
This belongs in the Anime vs Manga thread.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Asura » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:31 pm

Simere wrote:
Asura wrote:
batistabus wrote:In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren.
Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Whether you think it's in character or not doesn't detract from it being a dick move on Goku's part.
You can't say Goku thought they would have beat Jiren together when he immediately says: Otherwise, we probably don't have a chance. It's the only option I've got.
Yeah, key word there is “I’ve”. Goku wants to beat Jiren himself, so it’s the only option he’s got.
Dragono wrote:
Asura wrote:
Dragono wrote:Isn't that what Piccolo did to him?
Uh... no? You watched Z right? The first fight in the series where Piccolo and Goku team up to fight his brother Raditz? :think:
Bergamo wrote:Goku tries to help Hit by warning him about Jiren's trap, albeit a bit too late. Also, Goku being a bit of a jerk shouldn't greatly affect your opinion on the chapter. It's kind of par for the course.
Goku being a dick isn't my issue with the chapter, it was just kind of a boring chapter to me that continues to have the same problem as the other chapters in the ToP manga version, everything feels incredibly small with rushed pacing and 2 or 3 people fighting at once while the background is completely empty.
no, Piccolo made Goku fought Raditz by himself for most of that fight while he charged the makankosappo.
Okay? That doesn’t change the fact that Piccolo and Goku teamed up to fight Raditz, with Goku willingly fighting alongside Piccolo because Raditz was stronger than both of them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:07 pm

Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:You can't say Goku thought they would have beat Jiren together when he immediately says: Otherwise, we probably don't have a chance. It's the only option I've got.
Yeah, key word there is “I’ve”. Goku wants to beat Jiren himself, so it’s the only option he’s got.
Well, what about the key word "we" in the previous sentence? Taking all these key words in his explanation together, what we get is him saying (probably) the only way for them to win is if he pushes pass the wall, and he deems fighting alone the best way of going about that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:14 pm

Asura wrote:Yeah, key word there is “I’ve”. Goku wants to beat Jiren himself, so it’s the only option he’s got.
Nobody's arguing that Goku doesn't want a good fight with Jiren, or that he doesn't want to reach the next level. Of course he does. That's the "bits of poison" element to Goku's personality mentioned by Toriyama, and that's what he shifts from "we" to "I" over the course of that conversation. That said, just because he's happy about the reality of what's needed to reach the next level, that doesn't make it false.

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