"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[reecehoward]

Reece Howard, it's been awhile. My name is 4, and I'd like to apologize for staunchily defending this manga. I thought it was going to get better, but somehow it's gotten worse to the point is supar. I still think its better then the garbage anime, but toyotaro dropped the ball legitly in this ToP arc. It started the downfall in chapter 35 when Hit got knocked out for no reason, then conculded its drop-off by 39 (garbage chapter). Facts only.

It's all good, I never took it personally. There's nothing wrong with defending it, but the issue has always been how unwilling the manga fans were to see the flaws, yet hypocritically trash the anime for the very same things.

As I said a few pages ago, I saw this coming ever since the Hit vs Goku fight. People were praising the manga for it's changes based solely on what they didn't like in the anime, rather than if it were good in it's own right. Now here we are, ToP. The anime has been over for a while now and most were pretty satisfied for what they got in that ToP. Everyone is looking at these changes in the manga now as if they are hot garbage. Were's the creativity? Why is 97% of the newcomers "fOdDeR" when he could imagine them to be as strong and interesting as he needs to make interesting scenes? Why is he shoehorning plot points that effectively retcons the fundamentals of combat that the entire series has adhered to for decades? These types of issues were always there, but because many thought that the previous arcs were handled better than in the anime, they gave a pass for the manga. Now Toyo doesn't have that shield, as I've said; most fans were pretty satisfied with the anime ToP for the most part. People are starting to see the issues that were always there...

I must clarify though, that I find no issue with one's enjoyment of the manga. I personally WANT to enjoy it just as much. But for years, when you have fans constantly telling you "You didn't like what the anime did? Check out the MANGA!" or "Manga is BETTER" over and over abd over and OVER, and you decide to go into it with an open mind only to be equally or even more disappointed...it's like what is it that they are seeing or not seeing? Yeah it does some things better, but overall...Leaves a lot to be desired imo. Idk, I just find it fascinating that people still find a way to praise it as if it's the best continuation we could hope for, and put you down if you down if you don't agree. The fact that you, 4, of all people have started to see the issues is telling...

I think that despite your intentions, you do come off as very dismissive of people who enjoy the manga. I didn't even get into super until episode 123 was airing, so it's not like I was ever enjoying the manga solely because I disliked the anime.

I apologize if that is the case. I am wholly against that, so I will do a better job of reigning that in.

[kemuri07]

Anything that isn't just a flurry of generic punches, kicks, and throws.

I'd say this is probably the best pure fight in all of the Super mangas, animes and movies.

I was talking about the ToP, not the manga as a whole. THAT fight is illustrated very well, I'd be biased as hell to disagree.

I'd say this is probably the best pure fight in all of the Super mangas, animes and movies.

I absolutely love this fight and it's one of the main reasons that I favor the manga. It's tense and it's brutal.

As opposed to the anime in which "Oh boy, we get to see Zamasu firin up his lazers while he tells the Saiyans how they're fools to fight against a god and--zzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Here we go with the anime vs manga.lol There was nothing wrong with the visuals of either version of the fight. The anime legit had symbolism going on the entire time Zamasu .

Your point? So what if it had symbolism if it didn't add anything to the story or the character. And I was bored outright by the show constantly repeating Zamasu's God Complex again, and again. In the anime, Zamasu was boring. I found the more vulnerable Zamasu in the manga far more interesting because it was clear that his mental deterioration was meant to highlight his own hypocrisy. That and Zamasu was more fun as a villain when he was freaking out and reduced to simply pummeling the shit out of everyone.

[reecehoward]

I'd say this is probably the best pure fight in all of the Super mangas, animes and movies.

I was talking about the ToP, not the manga as a whole. THAT fight is illustrated very well, I'd be biased as hell to disagree.

I absolutely love this fight and it's one of the main reasons that I favor the manga. It's tense and it's brutal.

As opposed to the anime in which "Oh boy, we get to see Zamasu firin up his lazers while he tells the Saiyans how they're fools to fight against a god and--zzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Here we go with the anime vs manga.lol There was nothing wrong with the visuals of either version of the fight. The anime legit had symbolism going on the entire time Zamasu .

Your point? So what if it had symbolism if it didn't add anything to the story or the character. And I was bored outright by the show constantly repeating Zamasu's God Complex again, and again. In the anime, Zamasu was boring. I found the more vulnerable Zamasu in the manga far more interesting because it was clear that his mental deterioration was meant to highlight his own hypocrisy. That and Zamasu was more fun as a villain when he was freaking out and reduced to simply pummeling the shit out of everyone.

Different strokes for different folks.lol The symbolism added to the story of the character in every literal sense. He believed he had become the highest being, one who couldn't be touched by mortals. Once his halo was broken, he became exactly as you described.

[Pokesamus217]

I'd say this is probably the best pure fight in all of the Super mangas, animes and movies.

I was talking about the ToP, not the manga as a whole. THAT fight is illustrated very well, I'd be biased as hell to disagree.

I absolutely love this fight and it's one of the main reasons that I favor the manga. It's tense and it's brutal.

As opposed to the anime in which "Oh boy, we get to see Zamasu firin up his lazers while he tells the Saiyans how they're fools to fight against a god and--zzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Here we go with the anime vs manga.lol There was nothing wrong with the visuals of either version of the fight. The anime legit had symbolism going on the entire time Zamasu .

Your point? So what if it had symbolism if it didn't add anything to the story or the character. And I was bored outright by the show constantly repeating Zamasu's God Complex again, and again. In the anime, Zamasu was boring. I found the more vulnerable Zamasu in the manga far more interesting because it was clear that his mental deterioration was meant to highlight his own hypocrisy. That and Zamasu was more fun as a villain when he was freaking out and reduced to simply pummeling the shit out of everyone.

You act like that didn’t happen in the anime.

[kemuri07]

I was talking about the ToP, not the manga as a whole. THAT fight is illustrated very well, I'd be biased as hell to disagree.


Here we go with the anime vs manga.lol There was nothing wrong with the visuals of either version of the fight. The anime legit had symbolism going on the entire time Zamasu .

Your point? So what if it had symbolism if it didn't add anything to the story or the character. And I was bored outright by the show constantly repeating Zamasu's God Complex again, and again. In the anime, Zamasu was boring. I found the more vulnerable Zamasu in the manga far more interesting because it was clear that his mental deterioration was meant to highlight his own hypocrisy. That and Zamasu was more fun as a villain when he was freaking out and reduced to simply pummeling the shit out of everyone.

Different strokes for different folks.lol The symbolism added to the story of the character in every literal sense. He believed he had become the highest being, one who couldn't be touched by mortals. Once his halo was broken, he became exactly as you described.

This is where execution comes into play--and having a character repeatedly state his/her character trait is bad storytelling. Because it tells the audience you don't trust them to figure it out.

My argument is the manga found a better way of showing this than the manga.

So again. it all comes down to execution.

[kemuri07]

I was talking about the ToP, not the manga as a whole. THAT fight is illustrated very well, I'd be biased as hell to disagree.


Here we go with the anime vs manga.lol There was nothing wrong with the visuals of either version of the fight. The anime legit had symbolism going on the entire time Zamasu .

Your point? So what if it had symbolism if it didn't add anything to the story or the character. And I was bored outright by the show constantly repeating Zamasu's God Complex again, and again. In the anime, Zamasu was boring. I found the more vulnerable Zamasu in the manga far more interesting because it was clear that his mental deterioration was meant to highlight his own hypocrisy. That and Zamasu was more fun as a villain when he was freaking out and reduced to simply pummeling the shit out of everyone.

You act like that didn’t happen in the anime.

again. See: execution.

[1345521]

I see, thank you for the clarification.

It's still somewhat odd that such a shortcoming would be ailing him, though. Kami's training was supposed to have attuned his mental comprehension to the activities of the world around him, yes?

The whole point of that scene was for Goku to remember back to his previous masters' teachings. I think it is reasonable that after overwhelming enemies with pure strength and speed, relying on his Saiyan heritage (i.e. transformations that boost speed and power but not the mind) for so long especially since Vegeta is around, he could have forgotten about his old teachings, that there are ways to improve and battle without just trying to increase your power or speed. It's like learning how to do limits once in high school but then learning differential and integral calculus afterwards. You do calculus so much more often than limits because it is easier and more instructive to formulate that you forget the fundamentals of calculus, i.e. limits. But once you're reminded that they exist and review them, it all comes back to you.

Dude, you're still defending the manga after all of this time? it's been like 2 months? The manga has gone downhill. It's mostly accepted as medicore to downright garbage, most people have the anime better now. The manga is...not good anymore. The writing latley has become lackluster. the creatvity has plummeted, the page lay-out compostion is bad. The power scailing is on the anime level... the only thing the manga has left is the art and the gore. Other then that, everything has gone quite south. It's not interesting anymore, i'm still baffled how you can support this medcriotiy until now. I mean look, I feel bad for toyotaro and the manga, and for dragon ball in general because the dbs manga was like the last real good product of modern dragon ball, but it's kinda garbage now. And now you come across as an apologist more so then anything. Chapter 39 and 40 have been bad, straight up! 40 was so bad I forgot what even happened in the chapter other then vegeta fighting jiren and proclaiming about not having a teacher or something... people may call that "sweet" writing, I call that character stagnation. If toyotaro wanted to use an anime only concept, he should have used vegeta getting omen and making goku get UI. If toyotaro wanted roshi, he should have made roshi win the whole thing by some neat little trick or some. Real toriyama-esqe creativity and humor. If he wanted gohan shine, he should have used him in a more creatvity way then saying "I don't fight like a sayain" then throw him in the background off screen to kefla (the powerscailing of that fight made no sense). Toyotaro has done bad. And you know I'm being honest and not a anime fanboy because I used to defend the manga.

There's nothing wrong with defending the manga. It's still entertaining and interesting to fans who appreciate the narrative that Toyo is trying to tell.

You don't need to feel bad for Toyotaro, he's still getting paid, his volumes are still selling, and he's going to continue DBS right to the Broly film at the very least. He's not going to lose his job or mojo over some fans here and there getting riled up on the internet.

I feel bad and weird that I have to talk against those who I would have called my Estaunch allies just 3 months ago, since I use to love the manga very much...hmph, how time has passed.
You're right, there's not. I feel bad for toyotaro because his mantas image has gone utterly downhill into the gutter. During his prime (mid black arc-early recuuitment arc of ToP) the manga was gaining momentum and so many in the community where loving it, then CHALTER 35 came and then went downhill. There was some good chaps after that like 37 and 38.... But they were controversially good. Then 39 and 40 came and the manga just collapsed. Idk, bro. It's just unkfrtunate, that's all. I still think toyotaro manga should be adapted And toei could have brought his ToP to life (and toyotaro probably would have created a better ToP since he'd be force to be creative and not copy the anime but remix it like he's done in chapter 39 and more so in 40).
I hope he dosent get fired and I still want him to be the next author for dragon ball. Watching the db community protest in vain as he ascends will be funny to watch. I'd be really be laughing at geekdoms rants trying to trash toyotaro if that day were to come. Looool. It's all good, I've just loss my interest in the manga. Now I'm just excited for the movie (which dosent seem like it'll be that good).

[BrolySSJL]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

[TKA]

There's numerous reasons why I think the manga's rendition of this arc is leaps and bounds beyond the anime's, but one I haven't mentioned thus far is to watch all of the anime's Universe Survival Arc, you'd need to devote 18 hours of your life to it. The manga, much less.

[LightBing]

If anyone wants to compare the manga and the anime go here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38030&start=920

Damn it's been a long time since I cared to post the thread above in here, that says a lot about me losing hope that this thread will ever become civil and on-topic. Add to that the topic being closed more than 10% of the month(which I strongly disagree with), many people who made good contributions being gone and the few who care to discuss about the manga constantly being side tracked by those who want to start wars.

Anyway..., I think Vegeta's progress in this arc lacks a middle. We have the set up at the start versus Beerus, then he spends a good amount of time fighting Toppo off-screen, where there should be a point to demonstrate his growth. I feel Toyotarõ jumped a step. Thoughts?

[Amir]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

The story was the same, what do you mean better story?

You're saying Merged Zamasu in the anime was trash, yet Merged Zamasu in the manga was far weaker, less threatening and scary and even his attacks were nothing godly like those in the anime (throwing some metal cubes against a Final Kamehameha like an idiot) his immortality was badly portrayed, he was more Majin Buu than immortal, it was even implied that he could die if erased completely and he was also dumb - he had plenty of chances to destroy Goku and Vegeta but instead he chose to beat them up, and he even went out of character by trying to destroy the earth even though he only needed to destroy the mortals. When Zeno appeared, he acted like a fool unlike the anime.

I'm not going to argue whether you find Zamasu multiplying a better concept than Zamasu being mentally unstable and half mortal which caused his muation, (even though it made no sense for him to muliply) but how can Merged Zamasu be better objectively than the anime Merged Zamasu?
There wasn't that much of a different between them to say something like that.

[mute_proxy]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

Anime version of the Black arc had the best action scenes in the entire series (DB/Z/GT/Super), by best action scenes I mean best choreographed, the story is the same in both versions, except for the finale, which in manga's case was weak and nothing God like (just a Buu/Meta Cooler imitation), and the designs, as mentioned before, the manga lacked "Godliness". Zamasu turned into a regular strong dude, just a little buffer than his anime counterpart. Also a lot of people (including me) would argue that the Buu arc was the worst one in the original manga, so I dunno about all that...

[Bergamo]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

The story was the same, what do you mean better story?

You're saying Merged Zamasu in the anime was trash, yet Merged Zamasu in the manga was far weaker, less threatening and scary and even his attacks were nothing godly like those in the anime (throwing some metal cubes against a Final Kamehameha like an idiot) his immortality was badly portrayed, he was more Majin Buu than immortal, it was even implied that he could die if erased completely and he was also dumb - he had plenty of chances to destroy Goku and Vegeta but instead he chose to beat them up, and he even went out of character by trying to destroy the earth even though he only needed to destroy the mortals. When Zeno appeared, he acted like a fool unlike the anime.

I'm not going to argue whether you find Zamasu multiplying a better concept than Zamasu being mentally unstable and half mortal which caused his muation, (even though it made no sense for him to muliply) but how can Merged Zamasu be better objectively than the anime Merged Zamasu?
There wasn't that much of a different between them to say something like that.

Throwing a bigger orb doesn't make him a better villain. Making him more vulnerable was actually better, because in the anime Zamas was so strong that he could only be beaten by Trunks's impromptu spirit bomb sword. Also, some of the things you said, like your comment about him being erased, are objectively wrong.

[BrolySSJL]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

The story was the same, what do you mean better story?
.

What? Not the same at all. All the development is different: No shitty SSJ of Trunks, no magic sword, in the manga better goku vs zamasu,...

[Pokesamus217]

If anyone wants to compare the manga and the anime go here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38030&start=920

Damn it's been a long time since I cared to post the thread above in here, that says a lot about me losing hope that this thread will ever become civil and on-topic. Add to that the topic being closed more than 10% of the month(which I strongly disagree with), many people who made good contributions being gone and the few who care to discuss about the manga constantly being side tracked by those who want to start wars.

Anyway..., I think Vegeta's progress in this arc lacks a middle. We have the set up at the start versus Beerus, then he spends a good amount of time fighting Toppo off-screen, where there should be a point to demonstrate his growth. I feel Toyotarõ jumped a step. Thoughts?

Yeah, sadly both Toppo and Vegeta were the victims of the offscreen effect, you know what they were doing when they weren’t on panel, but you don’t get to see any of the interesting stuff outside of the end.

[Pokesamus217]

Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.

The story was the same, what do you mean better story?
.

s
What? Not the same at all. All the development is different: No shitty SSJ of Trunks, no magic sword, in the manga better goku vs zamasu,...

Worse Goku Black, worse Zamasu backstory, making Trunks feel completely useless in the arc that’s named after him, worse implementation of Vegito......

[Mnich]

Spoiler:

I knew I saw their poses somewhere.

[prince212]

Anyway..., I think Vegeta's progress in this arc lacks a middle. We have the set up at the start versus Beerus, then he spends a good amount of time fighting Toppo off-screen, where there should be a point to demonstrate his growth. I feel Toyotarõ jumped a step. Thoughts?

Yeap , toppo vs vegeta off-screen was sad . In exchange we had some vegeta vs jiren that was cool I.m.o
Seems lack of time , but 3-4 pages before toppo was knocked out could make that better. He took the route of “I’m better than this” , jumping that step to go face jiren and unlock his inner growing based on vegetas essence

[zarmack]

With the exceptions of Goku vs M.Zamasu and Freeza vs the U6 Saiyans, there is not a single noteworthy fight in Toyotaro's manga. They're either all mediocre or terrible.

[PFM18]

This is hilarious. After defending the piss poor anime (even by today's standards in a medium that is rapidly declining) and dealing with how atrocious it was, all the Super apologists have come out of the woodwork to finally vent their frustration with Toriyama and Toei by attacking the manga.

The ToP is a disgustingly bad arc, manga or anime, period. Just deal with it.

I know you like to assert your opinion as "an objective fact" but there's plenty of people that don't consider the anime to be piss poor.

Nah the ToP in the anime is one of the greatest arcs in the franchise. It has everything you could really want in a great arc.

I think there is a healthy middle. On one hand, special moves do add variety, but I really didn't care about Shantza's attack or the Black hole of love. Of course there is never any balance in Super. The anime is always excessive and the manga always leaves the reader wanting more.

That's the issue though. Toyo doesn't have to give them what's used in the anime. He can be creative and give them his own unique powers. It doesn't take much to do that. He didn't even attempt to do so.

In this case, there's no need to compare to the anime, as it's not really necessary to point out the issues in this version of the arc. This arc should be all about spectacle, yet this version has hardly anything of the sort going. That's not good. Damn what the anime did(even if it did get that part right), that's irrelevant for what the manga is not doing. The anime is over and done with, and most fans were satisfied with that version of the arc. This problem is wholly the manga's and many of fans are dissatisfied with it, some of whom could give less of a fuck about the anime and what it did.

Reece Howard, it's been awhile. My name is 4, and I'd like to apologize for staunchily defending this manga. I thought it was going to get better, but somehow it's gotten worse to the point is supar. I still think its better then the garbage anime, but toyotaro dropped the ball legitly in this ToP arc. It started the downfall in chapter 35 when Hit got knocked out for no reason, then conculded its drop-off by 39 (garbage chapter). Facts only.

I thought you were banned?