"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lionel]

I was under the impression that Toriyama enjoyed shattering the expectations of fans through subversive narrational tactics. Some catalogued interpretation of power tiers where this and that character is expected to come up to the chopping block in an orderly manner for self-butchery doesn't sound all too subversive. If people wanted the ambiance of a chaotic "every man for himself" royale then everyone should be made vulnerable to a spontaneous ambush -- Vegeta's overconfidence in relying on his base power sees him getting eliminated by a blitzkrieg tactic courtesy of Dyspo, lack of familiarity with Tokitobashi coupled with overwhelming power has #18 in the spectator stands before she can realise what's just happened, ect. Interestingly enough, there isn't a call for indiscriminate elimination for the sake of maintaining the integrity of the event.

Tenshinhan gets promptly taken out with nary a word to spare courtesy of Frost -- nevermind the possible means through which he could have escaped. He could have sprouted two additional limbs and gone for a twofold pointblank Shin Kikoho directly in Frost's face. Taiyoken -- you know, the technique which everyone seems to use even to this day without acknowledging the fact that it was originally a Crane school ability known by Tenshinhan -- in order to impact the eyes of his attacker and, in turn, damage the photonic receptive cells in the eyes, afflict the visual cortex as the stimulation is sent back to the brain, and then impact the vestibulo-ocular reflex which adversely causes your sense of balance to go awry for however long your senses are out of order. Lastly, but definitely not least, the Mafuba. Remember Tenshinhan's whole lone agenda to grasp this technique in preparation for his showdown with Piccolo Daimao in the Daimao arc? Yeah, Roshi's not the only one who knows this technique.

I can't say that it's not disappointing having both Tenshinhan and Krillin get eliminated -- they're two of my personal favourite characters, after all. However, with what so often goes on in this series, their own abilities seem to be undermined to an extent in order to reach the arbitrary goal which Toriyama feels he should pursue. Put someone else in the inaugural sacrificial crosshairs for a change and then let's see how people react.

[Khandom101]

I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.

On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.

If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro

Little dude, do you want to get banned? If so then keep on posting more of these.

[TobyS]

I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.

On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.

If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro

Little dude, do you want to get banned? If so then keep on posting more of these.

Stop being a fucking narc. He's not advocating harassment or threats. Giving feedback is not blasphemy.

[picc]

But I think that’s part of the problem, there was this perception that krillin may have somehow been able to defend himself if Frost “fought fair”.

I keep bringing up the Roshi scenario because the guy used the mafuba technique a bunch of times and by all accounts should have been half dead if not fully dead without a senzu bean in sight and doesn’t get immediately backhanded out of the ring like an insect against Frost.
I mean we are talking near peak Frost against exhausted Roshi...

Anyway the point I’m making is that the anime gave this huge training arcs, krillins fight against ultimate gohan or SSB Goku was just a hint towards “raw power isn’t everything” and there’s always a chance a weaker character could prevail or perform above expectations.

My issue with Super is that, theoretically, skill and technique could close a gap between two fighters... and Super certainly insists on arguing that point.

However, they don't actually follow through that line of logic. Many times, characters perform way above their paygrade with either no reference to skill, or a reference is made and subsequently ignored in favor of simply (and inexplicably) matching power.

For instance, they pit base Goku against SSJ2 Caulifla and tried to tell us his skill made it an equal match. I'm going to ignore how absurd that is, given dragonball's history of how fights with massive PL differences go, and simply focus on their particular fight. At one point in the match, they were slamming their fists directly into each other with no give from either one.



Thats a tired, base goku and SSJ2 Caulifla. Unless his fist knows jiu-jitsu, thats a straight up power stalemate. Five minutes later, Goku turns SSJ2... and the exact same thing happens.



Then you have things like Ribrianne looking about equal with both base and super saiyans, 17 and 18 looking equal when fighting together, SSJ2 Vegeta putting Beerus in trouble, 17 performing well above expectation against Jiren and even Toppo to a lesser degree.

My overall point, that your post gave me an excuse to rant about, is that power level discussion pertaining to the anime, particularly A-B-C comparisons between characters, is a useless endeavor for the fact that Toei animates fights not according to what should happen, but according to 1) What will look the coolest, and 2) What will fill the most space during the episode. Actual, rational thought and fact-checking is neither here nor there -- so the meticulous meta and ABC logic we apply to the show here is a fools errand.

Just look at Kale. Rekt SSB Goku, then powered up and stalemated his god form. People try to rationalize it as Goku using a fractional percentage of his blue power against her, when the real answer to why it happened is that the writer was a broly fan and thought it'd be cool, and then later another writer thought it'd be cool for her to fight god form.

Your point pertaining to krillin's training arc is fine as well, but think about his performance in the tournament. Yes, he got to fight a bit more than in the manga (presumably), but he was also taken out very quickly there. None of krillins techniques or skills helped him to do anything of significance in the anime tournament, so arguably, them spending so much time on his recruitment only to have him be eliminated so quickly still is an even bigger waste than what the manga is doing.

[JazzMazz]

If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro

Little dude, do you want to get banned? If so then keep on posting more of these.

Stop being a fucking narc. He's not advocating harassment or threats. Giving feedback is not blasphemy.

Have you seen this fan base?

This is the type of fan base that rabidly tore into a scenario writer on twitter for something he had no control over, directly after he said Dragon ball fans are the best.

I really don't want that sort of behaviour to be directed towards anyone, especially towards someone like Toyotaro.

Inviting that sort of behaviour isn't, even if it has the best of intentions, isn't something anyone responsible should really support.

[sintzu]

Perhaps they think what would make the fans satisfied is more Goku and Vegeta.

More Vegeta goes a long way for me so as long as he's treated right the others can go to he...wait for another arc.

Maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro

I wouldn't be surprised if fans of them and others have done that. The problem is that when you've got a fan base of this size, who do you listen to ?

[Zamasu55]

Is it out yet?

[sintzu]

Krillin and Tien wasted.
So much for the "Toyo-sensei will fix ERRYTHING, fuck TOEI".

He has been so far.

We didn't have 17, Krillin and Gohan somehow fighting a Blue Goku.

He established from the very first chapter that Vegeta has gotten stronger and may be able to take down another universe's destroyer instead of it coming out of nowhere with an equally questionable power up (it looks great though).

Unlike the anime, Freeza and Frost are shown to be very useful from the start as they both took out u9. In the anime Frost just got a fight with Roshi while we're STILL waiting for Freeza to do something other than just talk in the background.

We're going to forget about all the above and what he did in the previous arcs because he threw out 2 useless characters who had no business being there in the first place ?

Fodder got treated like fodder. No one is disappointed when the other universes weaklings are easily thrown out.

Thank you.

[kemuri07]

I won't go useless. I do like those characters. But they had no business being at that tournament with the likes of Jiren--fucking Jiren.

It's less the fault of Toyotaro and more of what DB eventually became due to the power creep: The Goku and Vegeta show.

[HeroR]

I kinda expected that for krillin,but not for tenshinhan.Now,looking at both versions I would say again that a battle royale with eighty unintroduced warriors at once was a bad idea from beginning.Even,one piece does not do it.

One Piece did do it.

[sintzu]

I won't go useless. I do like those characters. But they had no business being at that tournament with the likes of Jiren--fucking Jiren.

It's less the fault of Toyotaro and more of what DB eventually became due to the power creep: The Goku and Vegeta show.

They should've just used Buu instead of Tien as he would've gotten more done.

[Hawk9211]

I kinda expected that for krillin,but not for tenshinhan.Now,looking at both versions I would say again that a battle royale with eighty unintroduced warriors at once was a bad idea from beginning.Even,one piece does not do it.

One Piece did do it.

Marine ford had most characters already established.Dressrosa and whole cake islands are cluttered,you have difficulty in determining what is going on.One piece arcs are much longer and one piece has better world building.
Meanwhile,dragon ball had trouble with 16 characters in single person tournaments.

Oh btw I heard piccolo and gohan fight trio de danger,but freeza steals their eliminations.

[HeroR]

I kinda expected that for krillin,but not for tenshinhan.Now,looking at both versions I would say again that a battle royale with eighty unintroduced warriors at once was a bad idea from beginning.Even,one piece does not do it.

One Piece did do it.

Marine ford had most characters already established.Dressrosa and whole cake islands are cluttered,you have difficulty in determining what is going on.One piece arcs are much longer and one piece has better world building.
Meanwhile,dragon ball had trouble with 16 characters in single person tournaments.

Oh btw I heard piccolo and gohan fight trio de danger,but freeza steals their eliminations.

We know nothing about 95% of the people in Dressrosa's tournament and they had to be introduced through Oda boxes, snippets, and flashbacks, which in turn caused the main story to grind to a halt. That's why Dressrosa lasted over two years in the manga and WCI is currently the second longest arc. Dressrosa particularly got a lot of complaints about arc fatigue.

Dragon Ball has a different focused than One Piece, especially since most characters in tournaments are made to be throwaways.

[TobyS]

“They had no business being there with people like jiren" and variants of that.

That's dumb as hell it's a ten man tournament they are in the top ten in their universe (excluding moron children and sleeping djins.)

So yes they had every reason to be there. Saying they shouldn't be alongside Jiren is like saying like all of U9 shouldn't be alongside Hit and Goku

Stupid non argument there's a huge number of people and wide range of powers. As you'd expect from 80 people from different universes.

stop being intellectually dishonest.

[Hawk9211]

One Piece did do it.

Marine ford had most characters already established.Dressrosa and whole cake islands are cluttered,you have difficulty in determining what is going on.One piece arcs are much longer and one piece has better world building.
Meanwhile,dragon ball had trouble with 16 characters in single person tournaments.

Oh btw I heard piccolo and gohan fight trio de danger,but freeza steals their eliminations.

We know nothing about 95% of the people in Dressrosa's tournament and they had to be introduced through Oda boxes, snippets, and flashbacks, which in turn caused the main story to grind to a halt. That's why Dressrosa lasted over two years in the manga and WCI is currently the second longest arc. Dressrosa particularly got a lot of complaints about arc fatigue.

Dragon Ball has a different focused than One Piece, especially since most characters in tournaments are made to be throwaways.

That's true.But,the scope was much smaller even in terms of number of characters.The earlier tournaments had some gags,some growth,some seriousness etc.Top is well let's just say excess of everything is bad.Back then let's say if 50% of participants were throw aways then they were 8 characters now there are 40 characters 50 if you add the gods.

Maybe it is just some psycological effect.Now,we have two extreme examples here:one that tries to focus on everything but ends up becoming monster of the week and arguably does not succeed at it and the other which is getting to the point but you are left wondering why did they bother?

We could have taken the middle route if we had some background information similar to U6 and at the same time increase the audience investment.

[HeroR]

That's true.But,the scope was much smaller even in terms of number of characters.The earlier tournaments had some gags,some growth,some seriousness etc.Top is well let's just say excess of everything is bad.Back then let's say if 50% of participants were throw aways then they were 8 characters now there are 40 characters 50 if you add the gods.

Maybe it is just some psycological effect.Now,we have two extreme examples here:one that tries to focus on everything but ends up becoming monster of the week and arguably does not succeed at it and the other which is getting to the point but you are left wondering why did they bother?

We could have taken the middle route if we had some background information similar to U6 and at the same time increase the audience investment.

Can't really agree with that.

I would only want background to characters that maybe important in the future, and that isn't that many people. I mean, we still don't really know much about Tien other than he trained with the Crane Hermit.

[TheMikado]

“They had no business being there with people like jiren" and variants of that.

That's dumb as hell it's a ten man tournament they are in the top ten in their universe (excluding moron children and sleeping djins.)

So yes they had every reason to be there. Saying they shouldn't be alongside Jiren is like saying like all of U9 shouldn't be alongside Hit and Goku

Stupid non argument there's a huge number of people and wide range of powers. As you'd expect from 80 people from different universes.

stop being intellectually dishonest.

They aren’t even the top ten on the planet earth. Unless Roshi has now surpassed Yamcha or even Videl who can actually fly btw. Or chaostzu, etc etc. Remember this was the best they could find on short notice because Shin and Beerus are terrible at their jobs. So yeah they might not even be the strongest on the planet let alone the universe and SSB Goku should be worlds apart from someone like Roshi.

[TheMikado]

That's true.But,the scope was much smaller even in terms of number of characters.The earlier tournaments had some gags,some growth,some seriousness etc.Top is well let's just say excess of everything is bad.Back then let's say if 50% of participants were throw aways then they were 8 characters now there are 40 characters 50 if you add the gods.

Maybe it is just some psycological effect.Now,we have two extreme examples here:one that tries to focus on everything but ends up becoming monster of the week and arguably does not succeed at it and the other which is getting to the point but you are left wondering why did they bother?

We could have taken the middle route if we had some background information similar to U6 and at the same time increase the audience investment.

Can't really agree with that.

I would only want background to characters that maybe important in the future, and that isn't that many people. I mean, we still don't really know much about Tien other than he trained with the Crane Hermit.

I disagree if your going to take all that time introducing new characters then you should expand on the ones we don’t know not focus on the ones we do. All that time we spent on krillin, Roshi, 17, and Tien would have been better showing us more of the other Saiyan planet which I really appreciated in the manga. Or better yet expand on some of the more interesting but weak characters and universes. I do like that we got a glimpse of them in the anime but it’s also would have been kinda a neat surprise factor in the anime to go into an 80 man royal rumble with other universes.

[VegettoEX]

Do you have a link to the chapter?

Wholesale piracy of material with an imminent release is not allowed in this community.

[ snipped deviantart link ]

An image in and of itself is not a worthwhile contribution.

Little dude, do you want to get banned? If so then keep on posting more of these.

Stop being a fucking narc. He's not advocating harassment or threats. Giving feedback is not blasphemy.

If you feel a post does not live up to the spirit of the community guidelines, please simply report it so a moderator or administration can intervene. There is no need to "get into it" with other members like this.

Also (separate from these posts): "too many fucks" is not a legitimate reason to report a post. Sure, the person could definitely have found a more productive way to express their opinions, but that's another point entirely.

Also also, a single word ("True") or essentially-nothing-post ("Lmao. Poor Tien.") is likewise not a worthwhile contribution. If you don't have anything to say, you really don't have anything to say. Consider taking it to social media instead.

We've tried this before, and it may be time to try it again: this thread will be temporarily locked until the chapter's official release in full. This is Wednesday, March 21 in the pages of V-Jump's May 2018 issue alongside the official English translation digitally available on Viz's website. We do this to encourage people to actually have full context and understanding of what they're looking to discuss before attempting to actually comment in full on a product.

[picc]

Just read the english translation of chapter 34, and it was freaking awesome. No idea what people are talking about when they say the battle royale element is not there, it felt like a CLASSIC battle royale. Lots of different fights at once, people interrupting each others fights. Nonstop action, which was the most important part.

Curious how strong the trio de dangers are. Piccolo alone easily defeated Bergamo, while the other two brothers together were enough to keep Gohan purely on defense. At least in the short time they fought.

Rozel actually seemed to be the strongest member of U9, as he actually had Piccolo all but helpless solo.