"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

The anime was too long and the manga is too fast lol

5 minutes after 2 chapters isn't fast. If it follows at this rate (which it probably won't), that's about 20 chapters, or 1.75 years long.

If thats the case, then the pace should be sped up. This saga should be finished near the time the movie airs, at least i think thats the best time to end it.

It's likely that the tournament will go slow in the beginning and slow at the end, but my point is that it is definitely not rushed thus far.

[Kenneth La Torre]

5 minutes after 2 chapters isn't fast. If it follows at this rate (which it probably won't), that's about 20 chapters, or 1.75 years long.

If thats the case, then the pace should be sped up. This saga should be finished near the time the movie airs, at least i think thats the best time to end it.

It's likely that the tournament will go slow in the beginning and slow at the end, but my point is that it is definitely not rushed thus far.

Yeah i agree. Its just going in a different direction, which is why people feel is being rushed (not me).

[Rebel Instinct]

What you point out is wrong with the anime is just your opinion, nothing more. And this thread isn't to compare the two so, while comparisons are natural, I expect people to have common sense and, at least, read the title of the thread they are posting in.

That's not what I do and, if I'm not mistaken, people that prefer the manga were the first ones to bash the anime when comparing the two. Switch anime and manga in your paragraph and the result you get is the same.

You can compare them in your head but why would you post about it in a thread that doesn't ask you to? If the thread says "manga official discussion thread", I'm expecting that to be the main topic and not having the same three or four people having double standards every month.

Where was all this when these comments were made?

Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all.

After reading the leaked chapter, I have to say
that I'm extremely disappointed this month. Hit was treated worse in the chapter than what the anime did for his elimination.

Man, all I can say is that the manga version of the actual tournament is incredibly dull. Forget the story content for a minute. The Goku vs Jiren fight was terrible. I felt nothing watching it, and compared to how the anime handled their first showdown, it’s not even close. I feel the anime was much more enjoyable and tense than the manga.

And then there’s the Hit stuff. It’s pretty much beat for beat the same, except instead of Jiren overpowering time like he did in the anime, he just powered up and moved faster to knock out Hit. I prefer Hit’s characterization in the anime more because he actually felt like a member of team U6, whereas here he felt too “solo.” Overall, I liked the anime take more.

Jiren's introduction in the anime is better than the manga to me as it made Goku shit himself and people could just feel his power and this demonstrated what he is like which is 'absolute strength' and someone that looks down on everyone.

Your motivation is obviously not altruistic. The only reason you're trying to highroad Exline now is because he made a small dig at the anime in favor of the manga and you didn't like it. If you're going to jump on him for that, you need to jump on everyone else who did the same in favor of the anime for "ignoring the main topic and making comparisons". It can't suddenly become a problem only when the anime is the one under fire. Right there's your "double standard".

[TKA]

The anime was too long and the manga is too fast lol

Disagree. The manga's pacing has been pretty damn perfect thus far.

[majinwarman]

5 minutes after 2 chapters isn't fast. If it follows at this rate (which it probably won't), that's about 20 chapters, or 1.75 years long.

If thats the case, then the pace should be sped up. This saga should be finished near the time the movie airs, at least i think thats the best time to end it.

It's likely that the tournament will go slow in the beginning and slow at the end, but my point is that it is definitely not rushed thus far.

So, you think that the middle parts will be extremely rushed.

[Miracles]

i don't think that will be in ch 36, the last chapter ended with goku and jiren facing off and i think we will go from there with those two

Ah, that's right. So we get the awakening of Ultra Instinct then?

[batistabus]

I definitely don't think the intent of the bingo scene is that Vegets would have done that at any point in his life. That goes against the short conversation Goku and Beerus had about Vegeta throwing away his pride and how it impressed Goku. If it was about that, it doesn't really make sense, as Beerus should be no more terrifying than Freeza would be to Namek arc Vegeta since either could easily kill him.

Embarrassing himself in front of Freeza wouldn't help, unlike with Beerus. The conversation he has with Goku frames this as character development, but while it's certainly unusual to see Vegeta acting this way, I don't think the circumstances make it as effective as the "My Bulma" scene.

Re: A conversation a few pages back about Toyotaro over-inbetweening his fights (citing an example of Hit winding up a kick in the most recent chapter), I absolutely agree. Toyotaro's pages not only contain twice as many panels as Toriyama's (to the point that you could cut most in half horizontally and basically get two things with the general panel-count and layout of a Toriyama page), but he dedicates more panels to inbetween action that Toriyama would have implied solely through posing and action lines. Toriyama was a master of selecting the right poses on either side of an action, as well as impact shots, to imply a sense of speed, power, and continuity, while actually showing very little on the page. Toyotaro frequently attempts to show a lot of movement, and it has the effect of slowing some of his fights. His impact is also rather dull.

One of my biggest problems with Toyotaro is that I feel he has been too heavily influenced by the anime. His drawings sometimes resemble Yamamuro (or any other given Toei animator) more than Toriyama, and his paneling sometimes feels more like an animation storyboard than a comic. Toyotaro draws way more character reactions and frames of movement than are necessary, and I get the sense it's due to him picturing his story in complete motion. A manga only needs to draw the key scenes; it's up to the animators to pad things for cinematic effect. He'd be doing himself and his work a huge favor if he were able to trim the fat and put more emphasis on important frames.

Disagree. The manga's pacing has been pretty damn perfect thus far.

Totally agree. If the anime weren't padded to hell, nobody would be complaining that things are moving "too fast".

[Bergamo]

If thats the case, then the pace should be sped up. This saga should be finished near the time the movie airs, at least i think thats the best time to end it.

It's likely that the tournament will go slow in the beginning and slow at the end, but my point is that it is definitely not rushed thus far.

So, you think that the middle parts will be extremely rushed.

I wouldn't consider more than 2.5 minutes every chapter to be "extremely rushed," but I guess you prefer 30 seconds an episode.

[Exline]

I don't think the manga is going fast either. I just wish they took the My Hero Academia Route in making the eliminations more interesting. Their tournament arc is the best I've ever seen in terms of pacing and the management of characters.

Krillin and Tenshinhan we're given such lackluster send offs like their anime counterparts. Nothing but a punch sends them off the arena. Sure it makes sense when you have someone as powerful as Froze going against weaker beings like Krillin.

It's definitely going to be a one-sided fight, but that doesn't mean Toyo couldn't do anything to make it much more interesting. Krillin could have at least tried running away (Since it was the reason Goku put him on the team anyways..). I'm not going to enjoy this tournament if Toyotaro intends to keep making each characters elimination so boring. He didn't make me feel that way this chapter, (I think he did incredibly well with Hit's elimination compared to the anime), but the chapter before it certainly felt like that. Frost overpowering everybody wasn't much of a great fight to watch. Neither was Gohan vs. Trio De Danger with their extremely boring tactics.

Chapter 33 is still the best chapter so far imo. The ToP Started off really great. I am even more confident of Toyotaro's ability to give this arc justice after Chapter 35's impressive storytelling. Goku vs. Jiren happening much earlier than in the anime is a great idea to get things going in the Tournament. I just hope he really steps it up this next chapter with the possible Goku vs. Jiren Rematch. He really needs to make this next chapter great in order to suffice for the complains about previous chapters. He can't have only great storytelling, his fights need to be engaging as well.

[Bergamo]

I don't think the manga is going fast either. I just wish they took the My Hero Academia Route in making the eliminations more interesting. Their tournament arc is the best I've ever seen in terms of pacing and the management of characters.

Krillin and Tenshinhan we're given such lackluster send offs like their anime counterparts. Nothing but a punch sends them off the arena. Sure it makes sense when you have someone as powerful as Froze going against weaker beings like Krillin.

It's definitely going to be a one-sided fight, but that doesn't mean Toyo couldn't do anything to make it much more interesting. Krillin could have at least tried running away (Since it was the reason Goku put him on the team anyways..). I'm not going to enjoy this tournament if Toyotaro intends to keep making each characters elimination so boring. He didn't make me feel that way this chapter, (I think he did incredibly well with Hit's elimination compared to the anime), but the chapter before it certainly felt like that. Frost overpowering everybody wasn't much of a great fight to watch. Neither was Gohan vs. Trio De Danger with their extremely boring tactics.

Chapter 33 is still the best chapter so far imo. The ToP Started off really great. I am even more confident of Toyotaro's ability to give this arc justice after Chapter 35's impressive storytelling. Goku vs. Jiren happening much earlier than in the anime is a great idea to get things going in the Tournament. I just hope he really steps it up this next chapter with the possible Goku vs. Jiren Rematch. He really needs to make this next chapter great in order to suffice for the complains about previous chapters. He can't have only great storytelling, his fights need to be engaging as well.

I'm pretty sure Tien and Krillin's eliminations were gags. Krillin said, "Seriously," as he was falling out of the ring, and Beerus scolds Krillin while getting his name wrong. Talking about this without recognizing the gag is like talking about anything Gotenks does without recognizing that he's a joke character.

[Rakurai]

I just recently re-read the DBZ manga. And honestly I don't understand why people say Toriyama was a 'genius' at paneling. His panels were very basic and straightforward. It's... actually boring. Not many angles or dynamic shots like Toyotaro's, even for the supposedly epic reveals like SSJ2 and SSJ3.

I honestly had more fun and admiration reading F. Trunks arc than any other arc in DBZ, if anything because Toyotaro mixed things up with his paneling composition.

I do enjoy Toriyama's loose art, though. I kinda understand their interview better now, why Toriyama advised Toyotaro should draw his manga a little more roughly. It makes the scenes more 'alive' in a way. Gives more impact if there's an action scene involved too.

[TKA]

I just recently re-read the DBZ manga. And honestly I don't understand why people say Toriyama was a 'genius' at paneling. His panels were very basic and straightforward.

That's why it's great. It's very very easy to follow, with every panel leading your eyes into the next. Dragonball is my favorite work of fiction of all time precisely because it is so "basic". There is elegance in simplicity, and Toriyama does it so well that his work is to be admired.

Mind you, I'm a mid-level Tolkien fan, a Star Wars EU fanatic, and a massive DC Comics reader (and I'm also into more high-minded stuff not necessarily as expansive as the aforementioned), so I tend to gravitate to things much more complicated than Dragonball, but none of them hold a candle to it.

[jeffbr92]

The anime was too long and the manga is too fast lol

I agree, though I prefer this way in the current arc instead of the slowness in the previous one.

[majinwarman]

It's likely that the tournament will go slow in the beginning and slow at the end, but my point is that it is definitely not rushed thus far.

So, you think that the middle parts will be extremely rushed.

I wouldn't consider more than 2.5 minutes every chapter to be "extremely rushed," but I guess you prefer 30 seconds an episode.

I just want a reasonably paced story.

[Rakurai]

I just recently re-read the DBZ manga. And honestly I don't understand why people say Toriyama was a 'genius' at paneling. His panels were very basic and straightforward.

That's why it's great. It's very very easy to follow, with every panel leading your eyes into the next. Dragonball is my favorite work of fiction of all time precisely because it is so "basic". There is elegance in simplicity, and Toriyama does it so well that his work is to be admired.

Mind you, I'm a mid-level Tolkien fan, a Star Wars EU fanatic, and a massive DC Comics reader (and I'm also into more high-minded stuff not necessarily as expansive as the aforementioned), so I tend to gravitate to things much more complicated than Dragonball, but none of them hold a candle to it.

That's fine, everyone has different tastes and preferences in paneling. But the simplicity is part of my issue. It's nothing special. It's not genius-level, or above and beyond what Toyotaro has been producing. There are few if any angled panels and simultaneous but different views. When I see people compare Toyotaro to Toriyama's manga, they often cite Toriyama's paneling as being far far better. But Toriyama's paneling is dull, basic, and rigid all throughout, including the battle scenes. It makes battle scenes look like a roll of film instead of dynamic. When Toyotaro does battle, he starts to play with the views and angles because battle is meant to be like that, characters are moving all over the place. And it makes you feel like you are watching the battle from every perspective. Toriyama just doesn't have that.

That's just my observation though. I have nothing against the original DB manga, but this is one of the few instances when I prefer anime over the manga. Ironically, I prefer Super manga over anime.

[Bergamo]

So, you think that the middle parts will be extremely rushed.

I wouldn't consider more than 2.5 minutes every chapter to be "extremely rushed," but I guess you prefer 30 seconds an episode.

I just want a reasonably paced story.

You haven't given any reasoning to why you think the arc is rushed. You've just continuously said that the pacing is bad in one sentence posts.

[Exline]

So, you think that the middle parts will be extremely rushed.

I wouldn't consider more than 2.5 minutes every chapter to be "extremely rushed," but I guess you prefer 30 seconds an episode.

I just want a reasonably paced story.

It sort of is..?
Sure everyone here might want Hit to last longer, but him getting out so early supports the story of this tournament. U6 lost their biggest player and they need to figure out what to do in order to survive longer. U11 still has all their people as well.

I just recently re-read the DBZ manga. And honestly I don't understand why people say Toriyama was a 'genius' at paneling. His panels were very basic and straightforward. It's... actually boring. Not many angles or dynamic shots like Toyotaro's, even for the supposedly epic reveals like SSJ2 and SSJ3.

I honestly had more fun and admiration reading F. Trunks arc than any other arc in DBZ, if anything because Toyotaro mixed things up with his paneling composition.

I do enjoy Toriyama's loose art, though. I kinda understand their interview better now, why Toriyama advised Toyotaro should draw his manga a little more roughly. It makes the scenes more 'alive' in a way. Gives more impact if there's an action scene involved too.

At first I thought you were referring to the structures of the panels. Toriyama seems to do simple boxes most of the time, but Toyotaro goes all out with some interesting panel designs.

But in terms of story boarding, Toriyama is much better at it compared to Toyotaro. I think that's what you may be talking about when you say panelling. Toyotaro's story boards can too simple at times. He tends waste so many panels for attacks that aren't exactly engaging, like punches and kicks. It's probably why not many people enjoyed this current chapter in terms of action.

But the simplicity is part of my issue. It's nothing special. It's not genius-level, or above and beyond what Toyotaro has been producing. There are few if any angled panels and simultaneous but different views. When I see people compare Toyotaro to Toriyama's manga, they often cite Toriyama's paneling as being far far better. But Toriyama's paneling is dull, basic, and rigid all throughout, including the battle scenes. It makes battle scenes look like a roll of film instead of dynamic. When Toyotaro does battle, he starts to play with the views and angles because battle is meant to be like that, characters are moving all over the place. And it makes you feel like you are watching the battle from every perspective. Toriyama just doesn't have that.

That's just my observation though. I have nothing against the original DB manga, but this is one of the few instances when I prefer anime over the manga. Ironically, I prefer Super manga over anime.

I think that's the point of it being a comic book rather than anime. Batistabus explained it pretty well in his post how Toyotaro seems to try and include more motion in the battles when it's not really necessary. Him including panels like the one in my post about Hit winding up a kick that does nothing to Jiren at all is pretty pointless. He can save so much of his time and resources avoiding dragging scenes like these. Sure it makes it easier to follow the action, but sometimes that doesn't need to be the case. It's the anime's job to be extending scenes to make them more engaging.

Toriyama was also a master of conveying motion within his panels. Super Eyepatch Wolf from YouTube made a video on this as well, using an example of Vegeta vs Recoome where Toriyama draws Vegeta's aura travelling from in front of Recoome to behind him in the same panel. Toyotaro should be incorporating similar techniques into his panels instead of making such boring anticipation panels showing Hit wind up a kick that does not do anything to Jiren at all. Panels like those are necessary at times, but at that specific moment in that fight, it somewhat hinders the pace of the scene because we're all used to fast paced battles. The slow pacing is another problem of Toyotaro's fights as well.

Toyo's problems don't occur too often, but enough for readers to notice that he needs to improve on his skills.

[batistabus]

Toriyama was also a master of conveying motion within his panels. Super Eyepatch Wolf from YouTube made a video on this as well, using an example of Vegeta vs Recoome where Toriyama draws Vegeta's aura travelling from in front of Recoome to behind him in the same panel. Toyotaro should be incorporating similar techniques into his panels instead of making such boring anticipation panels showing Hit wind up a kick that does not do anything to Jiren at all. Panels like those are necessary at times, but at that specific moment in that fight, it somewhat hinders the pace of the scene because we're all used to fast paced battles. The slow pacing is another problem of Toyotaro's fights as well.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I just wanted to point out that Toyotaro does use the type of technique you're talking about.

From Chapter 35:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Toyotaro is capable of drawing everything needed for the ideal follow-up to Dragon Ball (short of Toriyama doing it, of course), but having the wisdom to know when he should be using certain techniques - and how often - is something that will hopefully come with time. He needs to trim the fat in some places and double-down in others.

[Marlowe89]

One of my biggest problems with Toyotaro is that I feel he has been too heavily influenced by the anime. His drawings sometimes resemble Yamamuro (or any other given Toei animator) more than Toriyama, and his paneling sometimes feels more like an animation storyboard than a comic.

Personally, I love Toyotaro's artstyle. His drawings have a sense of motion/dynamism and intensity to them that I feel artists like Young Jijii severely lack, and I think his actual character modeling is on point too. He's so good at drawing base Goku in particular that you can tell he's had a lot of experience with the character, whereas other popular fan artists (like, again, Young Jijii) often struggle with their own depiction of him.

His paneling probably needs a little improvement although I have almost no complaints about that in this chapter specifically. Toriyama himself has noted that Toyotaro's storyboarding composition is great, and I'm inclined to concur with that, but I do agree with the sentiment that he could use less panels at times.

[Rakurai]

I wouldn't consider more than 2.5 minutes every chapter to be "extremely rushed," but I guess you prefer 30 seconds an episode.

I just want a reasonably paced story.

It sort of is..?
Sure everyone here might want Hit to last longer, but him getting out so early supports the story of this tournament. U6 lost their biggest player and they need to figure out what to do in order to survive longer. U11 still has all their people as well.

I just recently re-read the DBZ manga. And honestly I don't understand why people say Toriyama was a 'genius' at paneling. His panels were very basic and straightforward. It's... actually boring. Not many angles or dynamic shots like Toyotaro's, even for the supposedly epic reveals like SSJ2 and SSJ3.

I honestly had more fun and admiration reading F. Trunks arc than any other arc in DBZ, if anything because Toyotaro mixed things up with his paneling composition.

I do enjoy Toriyama's loose art, though. I kinda understand their interview better now, why Toriyama advised Toyotaro should draw his manga a little more roughly. It makes the scenes more 'alive' in a way. Gives more impact if there's an action scene involved too.

At first I thought you were referring to the structures of the panels. Toriyama seems to do simple boxes most of the time, but Toyotaro goes all out with some interesting panel designs.

But in terms of story boarding, Toriyama is much better at it compared to Toyotaro. I think that's what you may be talking about when you say panelling. Toyotaro's story boards can too simple at times. He tends waste so many panels for attacks that aren't exactly engaging, like punches and kicks. It's probably why not many people enjoyed this current chapter in terms of action.

But the simplicity is part of my issue. It's nothing special. It's not genius-level, or above and beyond what Toyotaro has been producing. There are few if any angled panels and simultaneous but different views. When I see people compare Toyotaro to Toriyama's manga, they often cite Toriyama's paneling as being far far better. But Toriyama's paneling is dull, basic, and rigid all throughout, including the battle scenes. It makes battle scenes look like a roll of film instead of dynamic. When Toyotaro does battle, he starts to play with the views and angles because battle is meant to be like that, characters are moving all over the place. And it makes you feel like you are watching the battle from every perspective. Toriyama just doesn't have that.

That's just my observation though. I have nothing against the original DB manga, but this is one of the few instances when I prefer anime over the manga. Ironically, I prefer Super manga over anime.

I think that's the point of it being a comic book rather than anime. Batistabus explained it pretty well in his post how Toyotaro seems to try and include more motion in the battles when it's not really necessary. Him including panels like the one in my post about Hit winding up a kick that does nothing to Jiren at all is pretty pointless. He can save so much of his time and resources avoiding dragging scenes like these. Sure it makes it easier to follow the action, but sometimes that doesn't need to be the case. It's the anime's job to be extending scenes to make them more engaging.

Toriyama was also a master of conveying motion within his panels. Super Eyepatch Wolf from YouTube made a video on this as well, using an example of Vegeta vs Recoome where Toriyama draws Vegeta's aura travelling from in front of Recoome to behind him in the same panel. Toyotaro should be incorporating similar techniques into his panels instead of making such boring anticipation panels showing Hit wind up a kick that does not do anything to Jiren at all. Panels like those are necessary at times, but at that specific moment in that fight, it somewhat hinders the pace of the scene because we're all used to fast paced battles. The slow pacing is another problem of Toyotaro's fights as well.

Toyo's problems don't occur too often, but enough for readers to notice that he needs to improve on his skills.

Is that what storyboarding refers to? Panel composition and the like? Well, alright then.

Sequential motion in action within a single panel is something I haven't seen in Toyotaro yet, or at least I can't recall of. It would be interesting for him to use it more often.

He does extend battle scenes out but I don't think that's such a terrible thing for what's primarily a battle manga. Certainly, he could save time with motion in a single panel and focus more on showcasing impact frames. Not sure how to interpret the pacing in a manga but Toriyama's manga felt pretty rushed to me. When compared to the Naruto/Bleach/One Piece manga, at least.

I like Toyotaro's art style but I do think that the characters feel fairly static at times. Well, that ties back to perhaps Toriyama's advice of being more rough with his art to convey motion and impact.