"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

I just read Chapter 24 in English, and I must admit it's actually not that bad. Toyotaro has some good ideas. Just because of the amount of blood he showed this chapter is already good in my eyes, and it felt really like DBZ. Maybe too much, as someone already pointed out the manga version of this arc feels too much like Buu arc.
I like how the manga FT arc actually makes Goku and Vegeta make some true progress. Sure they improved in the anime too but apart from the Hit filler we don't really know how strong they become in the anime and apart from the future Zeno, as much as I like FT arc, it might as well have never happened in the anime and things wouldn't be much different.

The "mastering SSB" thing is a nice idea from Toyotaro, though something like this could never work in the anime (as Goku and Vegeta turn off their aura many time when fighting as SSBs in the anime and in the movie too).

I continue to prefer the anime version, but the manga is always an enjoyable alternative take to the events.

[Misirius]

They actually never really get rid of their aura in the anime. In the anime, they state that SSB is already a transformation that showcases a pieceful and mastered mind and body connection, but since the idea behind it was to absorb the energy and not letting it out in the first place, we can see they never really did that. They maybe kept part of their Ki inside their bodies, but they still have auras (heck, just look at ssb kaioken).

To me, in the anime, the transformation never really made much sense. SSB is the result of a Saiyan turning Super Saiyan using God Ki. God Ki is supposedly achieved by keeping the Ki inside their bodies, but wouldn't that be extremely tiring? Wouldn't just use God Ki in the base form (which is the SSG in the manga) already be difficult, and SSB being Super Saiyan on top of that, be even more difficult to control and contain?

This is why in the manga the SSB transformation has a stamina drawback. It makes sense. Containing the power of Super Saiyan inside of your body all the time must be EXTREMELY tiring. Let alone keeping all the power + the aura (Perfected SSB). To me, the manga approach of God Ki in general is much more solidified in terms of logic and common sense, whether in the anime is just like... common now. They even make Goku suffering no effect from using Kaioken on top of a form that requires him to keep the power of a Super Saiyan inside his body all the time... I mean...

I still like the anime, don't get me wrong, but they should just make an effort in either addapting better to Toriyama's notes or atleast explain through dialogues what in the world is going on.

I could keep going, in the Goku Black Arc, Goku Black went from having difficulties fighting SS Goku to kicking away SSB Vegeta like he was Trunks, and then in his Rosé form, gets completely roasted by a slightly more powerful Vegeta some episodes later? Just... nonsense. In the manga, Toyotarou actually kept the Power Scale believable, making SS Goku Black lose to Vegeta, then overpowering him because of the Zenkais and achieving his God Ki form (Rosé), and then making Vegeta actually showcase battle knowledge using the SSG + SSB Combo to beat him. Soooo much better man

[Jinzoningen MULE]

They actually never really get rid of their aura in the anime. In the anime, they state that SSB is already a transformation that showcases a peaceful and mastered mind and body connection, but since the idea behind it was to absorb the energy and not letting it out in the first place, we can see they never really did that. They maybe kept part of their Ki inside their bodies, but they still have auras (heck, just look at ssb kaioken). =

They have auras in the anime, but they mover in a more circular pattern now, as if SSB is recycling the energy through their bodies. At least that's what I've always gotten from it.

[Lord Beerus]

They actually never really get rid of their aura in the anime. In the anime, they state that SSB is already a transformation that showcases a pieceful and mastered mind and body connection, but since the idea behind it was to absorb the energy and not letting it out in the first place, we can see they never really did that. They maybe kept part of their Ki inside their bodies, but they still have auras (heck, just look at ssb kaioken).

To me, in the anime, the transformation never really made much sense. SSB is the result of a Saiyan turning Super Saiyan using God Ki. God Ki is supposedly achieved by keeping the Ki inside their bodies, but wouldn't that be extremely tiring? Wouldn't just use God Ki in the base form (which is the SSG in the manga) already be difficult, and SSB being Super Saiyan on top of that, be even more difficult to control and contain?

This is why in the manga the SSB transformation has a stamina drawback. It makes sense. Containing the power of Super Saiyan inside of your body all the time must be EXTREMELY tiring. Let alone keeping all the power + the aura (Perfected SSB). To me, the manga approach of God Ki in general is much more solidified in terms of logic and common sense, whether in the anime is just like... common now. They even make Goku suffering no effect from using Kaioken on top of a form that requires him to keep the power of a Super Saiyan inside his body all the time... I mean...

I still like the anime, don't get me wrong, but they should just make an effort in either addapting better to Toriyama's notes or atleast explain through dialogues what in the world is going on.

I could keep going, in the Goku Black Arc, Goku Black went from having difficulties fighting SS Goku to kicking away SSB Vegeta like he was Trunks, and then in his Rosé form, gets completely roasted by a slightly more powerful Vegeta some episodes later? Just... nonsense. In the manga, Toyotarou actually kept the Power Scale believable, making SS Goku Black lose to Vegeta, then overpowering him because of the Zenkais and achieving his God Ki form (Rosé), and then making Vegeta actually showcase battle knowledge using the SSG + SSB Combo to beat him. Soooo much better man

The anime is little inconsistent in the department of the SSJB auras, I do agree on that. At times we see Goku and Vegeta with aura when they power up into SSJB and stay in the form. But on other occasions, the auras just disappear after they become SSJB. But even when Goku and Gohan mastered SSJ they still produced auras when they still produced auras when they fought in those forms. Plus, whenever you multiply the Kiaoken, much Goku did tenfold in the anime, it always fuck up your body in some way. Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Plus, Mastered/Complete SSJB Goku being able to complete with Merged Zamasu just doesn't sit well with me. I mean, Vegeta fights at the full power of SSJB and he's stronger than SSJR Goku Black but is no match for Merged Zamasu, but Goku at the full power of SSJB is on par with Merged Zamasu. Eh. That could have been handled better.

[Basako]

Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Wait, Base Black has never been shown stronger than SS2 Vegeta, neither SS3 Goku stronger than SS Black. What you wrote is not in the Manga.

It has some power scaling issues, but not those.

[Lord Beerus]

Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Wait, Base Black has never been shown stronger than SS2 Vegeta, neither SS3 Goku stronger than SS Black. What you wrote is not in the Manga.

It has some power scaling issues, but not those.

Base Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, who is equal to SSJ3 Goku. Then Base Goku Black holds his own against SSJ2 Vegeta, transforms into a SSJ, making him 50 times stronger, and then SSJ2 Vegeta still kicks his ass. Hell, Future Trunks even notes that Goku Black is stronger than when he last fought him.

[MisteryOne]

Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Wait, Base Black has never been shown stronger than SS2 Vegeta, neither SS3 Goku stronger than SS Black. What you wrote is not in the Manga.

It has some power scaling issues, but not those.

Base Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, who is equal to SSJ3 Goku. Then Base Goku Black holds his own against SSJ2 Vegeta, transforms into a SSJ, making him 50 times stronger, and then SSJ2 Vegeta still kicks his ass. Hell, Future Trunks even notes that Goku Black is stronger than when he last fought him.

And that proves that Base Black is stronger that Vegeta SS2 because...? They barely fought. In fact, Black just stopped one of Vegeta's punchs, and I don't see why Vegeta could not have being holding back, specially since he was probably testing Black's power («You're indeed stronger than Trunks»)

Also, I don't get how any of that proves that SS3 Goku is stronger than SS Black. Please elaborate on that. SS3 Goku is not close to neither SS2 Vegeta or Base Black. You're contradicting yourself.

As a side note, Vegeta was never using 100% SSB with his SSG combo. Please, I understand that you're trying too hard to find inconsistences in the manga version (well no, I actually no understand it, for some reason in this fandom you can't like both versions, if you prefer one from another you must trust it so your version looks superior...for whatever reason) but if you are going ro do it you should at least re-read the entire arc if you don't remember things as simple as that.

[Misirius]

You got it all wrong, mate.

SS2 Future Trunks < Base Goku Black < SS2 Goku Black = SS2 Vegeta < SSB Vegeta < SSR Goku Black.


Also, Vegeta beat Goku Black with SSG + SSB Combo, he wasn''t "SSB at full power". Full Power SSB is what Goku did against Zamasu, and that is extremely strong. Vegeta didn't do it.

Get your facts straight.

[Basako]

Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Wait, Base Black has never been shown stronger than SS2 Vegeta, neither SS3 Goku stronger than SS Black. What you wrote is not in the Manga.

It has some power scaling issues, but not those.

Base Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, who is equal to SSJ3 Goku. Then Base Goku Black holds his own against SSJ2 Vegeta, transforms into a SSJ, making him 50 times stronger, and then SSJ2 Vegeta still kicks his ass. Hell, Future Trunks even notes that Goku Black is stronger than when he last fought him.

We don't really know where exactly is Goku SS3, he just used the SSG to end the sparring, but who knows how a long fight would have been. But we know Trunks's SS2 was very strong for a SS2, that's for sure. We also know Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 in the Beerus arc and that was long ago.

Base Black wasn't stronger than SS2 Vegeta, you make this conclusion with very little basis, which is proven wrong when, as you said, SS2 Vegeta looks stronger than SS Black, although he really kicks his ass only when he goes blue. The first fight between Vegeta and Black concerning to the power scaling is fine.

So base Black stronger than SS2 Vegeta, that's not true, it's not there. Goku SS3 stronger than Black SS? That's not there either and we couldn't be sure about this one, only speculate.

[MisteryOne]

Trunks was said to be on a similar level to SS3 Goku, Black trashed him yet Vegeta was stronger as an SS2, as he said himself (he claimed to be stronger than Trunks, so by extension he's stronger than Goku). There is no way that non-god form Goku is near to any of Black's forms.

[HeroR]

We don't really know where exactly is Goku SS3, he just used the SSG to end the sparring, but who knows how a long fight would have been. But we know Trunks's SS2 was very strong for a SS2, that's for sure. We also know Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 in the Beerus arc and that was long ago.

Base Black wasn't stronger than SS2 Vegeta, you make this conclusion with very little basis, which is proven wrong when, as you said, SS2 Vegeta looks stronger than SS Black, although he really kicks his ass only when he goes blue. The first fight between Vegeta and Black concerning to the power scaling is fine.

So base Black stronger than SS2 Vegeta, that's not true, it's not there. Goku SS3 stronger than Black SS? That's not there either and we couldn't be sure about this one, only speculate.

The manga never said that Vegeta kept the boost from Battle of Gods or that his Super Saiyan 2 form was stronger than Goku or Trunks'.

Base form Black should have beating Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta given the information we got in the manga.

[Basako]

The manga never said that Vegeta kept the boost from Battle of Gods or that his Super Saiyan 2 form was stronger than Goku or Trunks'.

Base form Black should have beating Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta given the information we got in the manga.

It never said it was temporary either, so I'm not gonna assume it was. It was also pre training with Wish and three year training with Goku, some improvement is possible and I'd said proven when he fights Black like he does. The fight is the definitive prove in this case, that's information too.

[HeroR]

It never said it was temporary either, so I'm not gonna assume it was. It was also pre training with Wish and three year training with Goku, some improvement is possible and I'd said proven when he fights Black like he does. The fight is the definitive prove in this case, that's information too.

Since the manga has its base in the movie, Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan 2 is temporary unless stated otherwise. Since the manga did, why should assume he does.

The fight doesn't prove because no called Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form special unlike Trunks'.

[Basako]

It never said it was temporary either, so I'm not gonna assume it was. It was also pre training with Wish and three year training with Goku, some improvement is possible and I'd said proven when he fights Black like he does. The fight is the definitive prove in this case, that's information too.

Since the manga has its base in the movie, Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan 2 is temporary unless stated otherwise. Since the manga did, why should assume he does.

The fight doesn't prove because no called Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form special unlike Trunks'.

The manga is different from the movie, for example it takes place in the cruise ship like the anime, while the movie in Bulma's house. The movie is not clear about the boost being permanent or temporary either, could be both, I checked the exact words short ago in a similar discussion.

The fight proves Vegeta SS2 > Base Black, without a doubt. He even does better against Black SS, so it's definitive.

[HeroR]

The manga is different from the movie, for example it takes place in the cruise ship like the anime, while the movie in Bulma's house. The movie is not clear about the boost being permanent or temporary either, could be both, I checked the exact words short ago in a similar discussion.

The fight proves Vegeta SS2 > Base Black, without a doubt. He even does better against Black SS, so it's definitive.

Those are surface level changes. And it was temporary in the movie since Vegeta called it a brief moment.

With no explaination why other than fans using headcanon, because the manga never said Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was special. Not Black nor Trunks who has a more powerful Super Saiyan 2 form that Toyo went out of his way to explained.

[Lord Beerus]

We see when Base Goku Black debut, he wipes the floor with SSJ2 Future Trunks at his strongest. Then we see SSJ2 Future Trunks spar with SSJ2 Goku and we see that SSJ2 Future Trunks holds his own against SSJ2 Goku and we even get commentary from Whis that he's almost as strong as SSJ2 Goku, if not, just as strong. Then SSJ2 Future Trunks powers up even more and is on par with SSJ3 Goku. Fast forward, and then we see SSJ Goku getting pummeled by SSJ2 Vegeta. Huh? Now how in the hell is Vegeta SSJ2 strong enough to beat around a guy who becomes 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku? When did Vegeta's SSJ2 form get so strong? Is is explicitly stated anywhere in the manga that Vegeta's SSJ2 became permanently much stronger than it previously was? No, it's not. And that's the issue. SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be in Base Goku Black realm of power at all. You can use headcannon all you want to say that Vegeta kept his power up in the BOG arc but that is never implied to be the case at all. It's just a theory. A theory that is no better than the one about Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime.

EDIT: And for the record, Goku explicitly states that when Vegeta is interchanging between SSJB and SSJG to fight SSJR Goku Black, he power isn't decreasing at all and that he was storing the power and letting it explode every instant he attacked Goku Black. So everytime Vegeta switched to SSJB from SSJB to attack Goku Black he was, for all intents and purposes, using 100% of the power of SSJB.

And, yes, Vegeta does say he is stronger than Future Trunks. But he has perfect grounds to say that as he can transform into a SSJB. So of course he's stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks.

[Basako]

Those are surface level changes. And it was temporary in the movie since Vegeta called it a brief moment.

With no explaination why other than fans using headcanon, because the manga never said Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was special. Not Black nor Trunks who has a more powerful Super Saiyan 2 form that Toyo went out of his way to explained.

The cruise ship was an example, but if you want a more meaningful one there is the difference from the movie about keeping the god level in SS form, which the manga didn't do.

He didn't say in that brief moment, he said in that great moment.

Man, training with Whis, three years with Goku and the fight against Beerus that you can't prove it was temporary, that's not without explanation. You just want to ignore it.

[HeroR]

The cruise ship was an example, but if you want a more meaningful one there is the difference from the movie about keeping the god level in SS form, which the manga didn't do.

He didn't say in that brief moment, he said in that great moment.

Man, training with Whis, three years with Goku and the fight against Beerus that you can't prove it was temporary, that's not without explanation. You just want to ignore it.

Something the manga actually showed.

He said brief in the original.

No, you're just using headcanon to cover something that the manga never stated. No one said Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special, unlike Trunks' where everyone was surprised his Super Saiyan 2 rivals Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A simple line like "he has a form like Vegeta" would have done it. Or Black or Trunks commenting on Vegeta's unique Super Saiyan form. None of that happened. Hence, headcanon. Which is fine, but not let's pretend that the manga claimed Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is special because he beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black. Even if that was the case, it's bad storytelling on Toyo's part.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Everyone, Vegeta is 300 times stronger than Goku, Trunks is 4 times stronger than Goku, and Black was over 400 times stronger than Goku before the near-death power-up, while after it his SS form after the near-death power-up surpassed SSB Goku, and he became a SSR on top of that (meaning he got the same boost SSB Goku & Vegeta get when they go from SS to SSB). Get over it already, and stop connecting dots for a better explanation, that's definitely what Toyotaro intended!

[Basako]

The cruise ship was an example, but if you want a more meaningful one there is the difference from the movie about keeping the god level in SS form, which the manga didn't do.

He didn't say in that brief moment, he said in that great moment.

Man, training with Whis, three years with Goku and the fight against Beerus that you can't prove it was temporary, that's not without explanation. You just want to ignore it.

Something the manga actually showed.

He said brief in the original.

No, you're just using headcanon to cover something that the manga never stated. No one said Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special, unlike Trunks' where everyone was surprised his Super Saiyan 2 rivals Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A simple line like "he has a form like Vegeta" would have done it. Or Black or Trunks commenting on Vegeta's unquie Super Saiyan form. None of that happened. Hence, headcanon.

In the original which, the Japanese? You understand it? It said brief moment? Come on, I'm not gonna just believe your word on this, prove it. For now the best I have is an official version that didn't say it was temporary as you said. That I can prove with evidence.

I'm not using headcanon, I told you, the fight itself is the definitive evidence. Then I added some more past context as supplement to it, which makes it totally possible to be.