"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:57 pm

MisteryOne wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:So Golden Frieza has gotten nurfed and Kale's carrying a big can of woop-ass...

One minut your down, the next your right back up again.
Can you explain to me how Golden Frieza was nerfed?

Final form Frieza is more or less equal with Base Goku.

Golden Frieza is more or less equal with Blue Goku.

If Frieza fought SS1 Goku he would have to turn Golden as well. Exactly what he did in this chapter. Where is the nerfed part?
We don't know how FF Freeza compares to Goku's forms like we do in the RoF film since that saga was skipped in the manga, but compared to the film/anime the manga version of DBS Freeza is nerfed. The Zamasu Saga takes place after the RoF Saga where Goku's base and SSJ1-3 form are shown and stated to not be that much different from his Buu Saga levels. Vegeta is typically depicted equal to Goku in all forms minus SSJ2 and in the previous U6T Saga SSJ Vegeta is shown to have an edge over SSJ Cabba.

The same SSJ Cabba is shown only to be 1 step lower than Caulifla which would put her SSJ form close to SSJ Goku during the Buu Saga, well, SSJ Caulifla is shown roughly on par with FF Freeza which contradicts him being at level on par with SSJG level as shown in the RoF Film and anime version.

From what I can gather the Zamasu Saga

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:06 pm

I'll look it up in a bit but I did hear Hit and Jiren got to fight early one.

I hope Jiren curb stomped that lowly assassin as was proper?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:49 pm

lord turbo wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:So Golden Frieza has gotten nurfed and Kale's carrying a big can of woop-ass...

One minut your down, the next your right back up again.
Can you explain to me how Golden Frieza was nerfed?

Final form Frieza is more or less equal with Base Goku.

Golden Frieza is more or less equal with Blue Goku.

If Frieza fought SS1 Goku he would have to turn Golden as well. Exactly what he did in this chapter. Where is the nerfed part?
We don't know how FF Freeza compares to Goku's forms like we do in the RoF film since that saga was skipped in the manga, but compared to the film/anime the manga version of DBS Freeza is nerfed. The Zamasu Saga takes place after the RoF Saga where Goku's base and SSJ1-3 form are shown and stated to not be that much different from his Buu Saga levels. Vegeta is typically depicted equal to Goku in all forms minus SSJ2 and in the previous U6T Saga SSJ Vegeta is shown to have an edge over SSJ Cabba.

The same SSJ Cabba is shown only to be 1 step lower than Caulifla which would put her SSJ form close to SSJ Goku during the Buu Saga, well, SSJ Caulifla is shown roughly on par with FF Freeza which contradicts him being at level on par with SSJG level as shown in the RoF Film and anime version.

From what I can gather the Zamasu Saga
Not this again...

Base Goku in RoF was NOT at SSG level. There is literally nothing on the film implying that. The whole Saiyan Beyond God thing was a misinformation spread trough the fandom who tried hard to keep the consistency in the scaling, and literally the only media it appeared it was in a Dragon Ball Heroes card... which was using it as a placeholder for SSGSS Goku and was indeed replaced once the form was oficially revealed. A better name would probably have been Beyond SSG, but still the base form was not the one with the odd name but it transformed into it. Something that the fandom just seems to ignore. That being said, given that First Form Frieza oneshoted Gohan there are implications about the base saiyans from RoF onwards being way stronger that in the Boo saga. Them not being that much stronger than in that time is really a fan thing as far as I'm aware, because people seem to have a problem with U6 saiyans being at that level.

I repeat. Neither Base Goku or Frieza were shown to be SSG level. There is not such a thing as a godly base form. Please inform yourself better before calling out "inconsistencies" or "nerfes". This has been pointed out on this very forum but I'm aware that it will never be able to clear one of the dumb misinformation that were used as the fandom trying to do Toei's job, including the infamous "Super Saiyan Blue ki control" that is contradicted by the Cell arc itself. Still, it pisses me off that people still believe Goku ever had any type of godly base form in either RoF or after it. As far as the movies are concerned of course, since Toei is inconsistent enough to have Krillin face SSB Goku. But if we are willing to use the anime version, it is directly stated that SSG Goku> Frieza during the battle with Aniraza.

Plus, we know from the flashbacks that RoF was pretty much the same as the film version. And Toyotaro himself drawn a version of the film in manga format. Even if it doesn't appear as part of the manga, if there were any mayor differences Toyotaro would have used the flashbacks on this very own arc to point them out.

Therefore, Frieza is Buu saga base saiyans using your logic (which is not really true since they are way stronger now, but still, Frieza is around the level of base Cabba, whatever you consider it to be around Buu saga tier or not). I was speaking about the Golden form anyways, which is still a huge power boost.
Last edited by MisteryOne on Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:53 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:So Golden Frieza has gotten nurfed and Kale's carrying a big can of woop-ass...

One minut your down, the next your right back up again.
Can you explain to me how Golden Frieza was nerfed?

Final form Frieza is more or less equal with Base Goku.

Golden Frieza is more or less equal with Blue Goku.

If Frieza fought SS1 Goku he would have to turn Golden as well. Exactly what he did in this chapter. Where is the nerfed part?
Your going to have to forgive me, I have barely followed anything sinc the anime ended.

I had heard down the grap vine that Frieza was having a tough time with Califla, I have just now looked up the chapter on Viz and he clearly is not. He makes all of them look like a joke until Kale bersek button gets pushed.
He does turn Golden, but yeah she only struggles with she-Broly. While I like how the scene is handled and I consider it better to the anime version, I'm a bit unsure about Frieza being beaten so soon, considering he won't have a new form like Goku on this arc. Maybe he will have a better fight later since I expect Jiren to oneshot her once she goes mad.

Ironically I think Vegeta on the other hand seems to have very little problems with Toppo alone. But I have faith in Toyotaro since I still find the manga arc version as a whole better for the momment (certain things are kinda debatable in that aspect though).
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 am

MisteryOne wrote:I repeat. Neither Base Goku or Frieza were shown to be SSG level. There is not such a thing as a godly base form.
That's hard to say. I mean, you can suppose, but you can't PROVE that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:52 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:I repeat. Neither Base Goku or Frieza were shown to be SSG level. There is not such a thing as a godly base form.
That's hard to say. I mean, you can suppose, but you can't PROVE that.
Then what happens when Goku turns SSGod? He has the power of SSG x2? That's ridiculous
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:01 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:I repeat. Neither Base Goku or Frieza were shown to be SSG level. There is not such a thing as a godly base form.
That's hard to say. I mean, you can suppose, but you can't PROVE that.
Krillin is stronger than Jiren. Prove me wrong.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:18 pm

Bergamo wrote: I'm pretty sure that Vegeta is supposed to be SS1 in that fight, but I like this explanation.
You can see the sparks when he transforms and several times after when his aura is up. I don't see why you think it's SSJ, it's pretty blatant that it's not. Please revisit the the chapter in question.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:31 pm

LightBing wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I'm pretty sure that Vegeta is supposed to be SS1 in that fight, but I like this explanation.
You can see the sparks when he transforms and several times after when his aura is up. I don't see why you think it's SSJ, it's pretty blatant that it's not. Please revisit the the chapter in question.
SS1 Goku has lightning in his aura, and SS2 Goku has no lightning in his aura during chapter 35.
Lightning =/= SS2
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Bergamo wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I'm pretty sure that Vegeta is supposed to be SS1 in that fight, but I like this explanation.
You can see the sparks when he transforms and several times after when his aura is up. I don't see why you think it's SSJ, it's pretty blatant that it's not. Please revisit the the chapter in question.
SS1 Goku has lightning in his aura, and SS2 Goku has no lightning in his aura during chapter 35.
Lightning =/= SS2
Please provide me examples with SSJ1 Goku with lightning. I just quickly looked most of the U6 arc and he doesn't have sparks, neither does SSJ Vegeta. Only Cabba when he transforms but that's just the clash between Vegeta's attack and the transformation, later he lacks the sparks because he's SSJ.
I also looked at Toppo vs Goku where the later goes through the Super Saiyan transformations and the difference is obvious, SSJ1 has no sparks.

In chapter 35 Goku doesn't have an aura, so of course he doesn't have lightning.

Lighting is the most noticeable trait of SSJ2 and the manga makes it obvious to discern.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:54 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:Then what happens when Goku turns SSGod? He has the power of SSG x2? That's ridiculous
Who said Goku can turn Beyond God and SS God at the same time?
Bergamo wrote:Krillin is stronger than Jiren. Prove me wrong.
That's a little exaggerate, don't you think? :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:55 pm

Are we supposed to accept that SSJ Caulifla is somewhat equal with RoF SSJ Blue?
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:04 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:Are we supposed to accept that SSJ Caulifla is somewhat equal with RoF SSJ Blue?
No you're not, because that's literally untrue. Are we supposed to accept that Krillin is as strong as Jiren, smh Toyotaro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:09 pm

MisteryOne wrote:Not this again...

Base Goku in RoF was NOT at SSG level. There is literally nothing on the film implying that.
Yes, he was, in the last film Goku's base and SS forms were SSG levek since absorbing that god power into his being, RoF continues on from this with all official supplement and material for the RoF stating he is a Saiyan with the power of SSG and when such a saiya turns SS they automatically become SSBlue.

The manga for the RoF directly confirms this with the after image of SSG Goku behind base Goku when he's training with Whis.
That being said, given that First Form Frieza oneshoted Gohan there are implications about the base saiyans from RoF onwards being way stronger that in the Boo saga. Them not being that much stronger than in that time is really a fan thing as far as I'm aware, because people seem to have a problem with U6 saiyans being at that level.
First form Freeza only oneshotted base Gohan which doesn't prove much. U6 saiyans such as SS Cabba is step or so below SS Vegeta who's not that much different than his Buu saga self (minus SS2) as shown during the Zamasu Saga as far as the manga versions are concerned.
But if we are willing to use the anime version, it is directly stated that SSG Goku> Frieza during the battle with Aniraza.
This was never stated and if anything FF Freeza > SSG Goku considering base Dyspo stomped SSG Goku while FF Freeza fought on par with the same base Dyspo that stomped SSG goku earlier.
Plus, we know from the flashbacks that RoF was pretty much the same as the film version.
Not really, all we know is that SSB Vegeta fought Freeza and that SSB Goku killed Freeza with a kamehameha, anything else is speculation.
And Toyotaro himself drawn a version of the film in manga format.
Which is set in the same storyline as the films and not the DBS manga which follows a different storyline ergo, not the same.
Therefore, Frieza is Buu saga base saiyans using your logic (which is not really true since they are way stronger now, but still, Frieza is around the level of base Cabba, whatever you consider it to be around Buu saga tier or not). I was speaking about the Golden form anyways, which is still a huge power boost.
I was speaking purely about FF Freeza who's Buu Saga SS level at best, not base saiyan level. Like I said earlier SS Cabba is a step or so inferior to SS Vegeta who is shown through the Zamasu arc not to be much different than his Buu Saga self (minus SS2), Caulifla scales to Cabba so no, none of the U6 (minus Kale) saiyans exceed the Buu Saga SSs.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:14 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:Then what happens when Goku turns SSGod? He has the power of SSG x2? That's ridiculous
Who said Goku can turn Beyond God and SS God at the same time?
This makes absolutely no sense. Why would he use SSG in the ToP if according to you he can turn into ''Beyond God''? Isn't that just his freaking base form?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:25 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:This makes absolutely no sense. Why would he use SSG in the ToP if according to you he can turn into ''Beyond God''? Isn't that just his freaking base form?
I don't think it's his base form; to me is something like Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:38 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:This makes absolutely no sense. Why would he use SSG in the ToP if according to you he can turn into ''Beyond God''? Isn't that just his freaking base form?
I don't think it's his base form; to me is something like Ultimate Gohan.
You just summed it all up right there: TO YOU. Which means it's just a headcanon, not even a good one because it fucks up the plot, and every form of logic within it
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:48 pm

I don't think so.

Besides, I thought it was implied before: while we can't affirm or deny with 100% of certain the existence of Beyond God (and we can't, period), TO ME is a thing and can explain a lot of things in the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:54 pm

When RoF came out - based largely on that Toriyama interview where he said Goku absorbed the power of God without the need of the ritual - it seemed possible that "base" Goku was at God level. Since then, however, that can no longer be the case. The fact that Goku transforms into God and gets stronger, and is able to transform into a Super Saiyan without becoming Super Saiyan Blue, shows that Goku is not constantly accessing God ki. It's debatably a retcon, but it's been that way since the Universe 6 tournament. In the Tournament of Power, base Freeza is certainly not God-level.

As for how Super Saiyan 2 is represented in the manga, Toytaro has been pretty consistent with it. If you see sparks, it's safe to assume we're seeing Super Saiyan 2.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:01 pm

batistabus wrote:When RoF came out - based largely on that Toriyama interview where he said Goku absorbed the power of God without the need of the ritual - it seemed possible that "base" Goku was at God level. Since then, however, that can no longer be the case. The fact that Goku transforms into God and gets stronger, and is able to transform into a Super Saiyan without becoming Super Saiyan Blue, shows that Goku is not constantly accessing God ki. It's debatably a retcon, but it's been that way since the Universe 6 tournament. In the Tournament of Power, base Freeza is certainly not God-level.

As for how Super Saiyan 2 is represented in the manga, Toytaro has been pretty consistent with it. If you see sparks, it's safe to assume we're seeing Super Saiyan 2.
Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.
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