"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 pm

I understand why people are questioning the cellular tidbit in principle, logically it's weird. The problem is your applying - real life - logic to it.

We were all perfectly fine with magic earrings that fuse people, which we accepted because a God told us that's what it does. Yet when another God says the cellular part, which is just continuing the "it's magic" explanation, suddenly it's questionable?
It doesn't contradict anything from before, so the writing isn't the problem.

The cognitive dissonance is strong!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:29 pm

fexus wrote:Wow, what a disgusting chapter. Reading this made my brain melt. How the hell is Zamasu fusion getting undone? He's a Kaioshin. And Goku having destruction powers? This just further proves how better the anime is right now. Not only did Toyo manage to ruin Black and Zamasu characters. But he also manage to ruin the arc too. Wasn't it enough having Trunks have "healing" powers. Now Goku have destruction powers. Hahahaha :lol:
My thoughts exactly, but expect next month for something even worse, I bet Toyotaro is saving his A-game to next chapter. Hopefully in August we finally get into the "new" content.
TKA wrote:
Noah wrote:Gosh, is that really necessary? That's something that I hate about Super characterization, why portray characters in such regression? That's something that I would expect from Android arc/Movie 6 Vegeta, not the same guy after the Boo arc, damn.
He literally saved Goku's life, and in that same motion prepared an attack to fire on them. You were expecting him to gently whisk Goku away, check if he's okay and then shoot them? This is a serious battle and a surprise attack works best when it's a surprise.
I understood his purpose, I just wanted something better than a scene screaming: "OMG Vegeta kicked Goku to save him!! Thats so funny cause they are rivals and Vegeta did the same in the Android Saga lol"
ekrolo2 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:This is some of the best art Toyo has ever made
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Pretty sure I've seen that in some video game opening or something, or Golden Freeza charging Goku or something in promotional art, not sure, but it looks familiar :think:
He probably copied it from this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is correct to call someone who tends to make homages a lot in his work a bad artist? Gee, it's like Toyotaro don't know how to be authentic.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MathSSJ » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:18 pm

LightBing wrote:I understand why people are questioning the cellular tidbit in principle, logically it's weird. The problem is your applying - real life - logic to it.

We were all perfectly fine with magic earrings that fuse people, which we accepted because a God told us that's what it does. Yet when another God says the cellular part, which is just continuing the "it's magic" explanation, suddenly it's questionable?
It doesn't contradict anything from before, so the writing isn't the problem.

The cognitive dissonance is strong!
Curious: Is the "bad air" excuse ok for you then? Because the same the thing to be honest.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:24 pm

This ft trunks arc better end next month because I'm sick of seeing mz and i don't want to see more padding,it would destroyed the flow of re reading this arc and i Want to see Toyo potrayal of the USA arc or he will skip that arc :think:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:51 pm

MathSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:I understand why people are questioning the cellular tidbit in principle, logically it's weird. The problem is your applying - real life - logic to it.

We were all perfectly fine with magic earrings that fuse people, which we accepted because a God told us that's what it does. Yet when another God says the cellular part, which is just continuing the "it's magic" explanation, suddenly it's questionable?
It doesn't contradict anything from before, so the writing isn't the problem.

The cognitive dissonance is strong!
Curious: Is the "bad air" excuse ok for you then? Because the same the thing to be honest.
It's almost the same thing. The difference is that the "bad air" is completely out of nowhere and looks like a way out for the sake of it.
The cellular thing has a bit of precedents, it fits with the weird characteristics of the Potaras (rival boost) and the characters personality and obsession. The latter values it beyond a tidbit for the sake of the plot, it reinforces the villains personality to the extreme, leading to this development.

Not to say that I like the "bad air" excuse, specially when it's been recently retconned and we can say it was an excuse from Mr.Toriyama to cover the previously established rule that Potara's Fusions were forever. A product of the "write by the seat of your pants" that was going on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ikazvyr » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:14 pm

Noah wrote:Is correct to call someone who tends to make homages a lot in his work a bad artist? Gee, it's like Toyotaro don't know how to be authentic.
So a lot of people who did DBZ, Super and the games are bad artists. We should do an list, don't you think? :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jplaya2023 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:39 pm

chapter was ok i guess. I don't like ogku using a god only technique but it's goku so whatever.

I guess since they're one their cells immersed and black absorbed the immortality zamazu had (shrugs)

Hopefully next chapter trunks ki has recovered and he heals goku and vegeta and we see gogeta

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:37 pm

fexus wrote:It does devalues it. Now everyone can call themselves the God of Destruction if they somehow manage to learn the hakai technique. Hell, I think most of the kaioshin should know the hakai technique by just being a god. There goes the uniqueness of the GoD. Whoosh... I don't write that off as plot holes. The only plot holes that I can think as of this chapter is that the fusion of Zamasu came undone. That's stupid as hell and even more is useless as Zamasu is still merged because at the cellular level lol.
What I consider Goku doing the hakai is something kind of a stupid development. Sure you can justify it. Sure it maybe possible. But it came out of nowhere. It destroys the most basic of assumptions. It is done just to be different. It'll divide the community. And it'll make something precious into something generic. I'll watch Fairy tail if I want asspull. And Future Trunks in the anime is enough asspull for me the manga too because I consider healing an asspull.
It does matter. Toriayama is the main author. He can make Goku a pink monkey with magic pants for all I care. It's his story. Toyo on the other hand is just, meh.
If you don't need to be a God of Destruction to use the technique, then being able to use the technique doesn't enable one to call themselves a God of Destruction. And just because Goku of all people is using the technique, doesn't mean that it's such a simple technique to learn that everyone should just be casually picking it up. You know who Goku is, right? You what he can do, right? You know that he's always supposed to have been sort of special, a kind of savant when it came to combat, right? He's the one who picked up the Kamehameha, whose inventor had taken several decades to develop it, just from seeing it once. He's the only one we know to be able to actually use the Kaioken. He's the one who figured out the right way to evolve past Super Saiyan. Goku being able to use this is consistent with the kind of shit he's always been capable of doing: mastering things thought unmasterable at a faster rate than anyone thought possible.

What makes something an "asspull"? What does that word even mean? Is it just some new development that you don't like? It feels like nothing more than a vacuous, definition-less weasel word. You never really explained what was wrong with Trunks getting healing. It's an expansion of already existing lore in a place where there was room to be expanded. It was set up. Where's the fire? Is it an "asspull" because Trunks isn't being the toughest, baddest motherfucker on the team now? Because that seems to be the only thing that's true about it that seems one could justifiably take issue with.

An unexpected, but plausible and justifiable, subversion of basic assumptions isn't something worth being this melodramatic about. Something being done just to be different doesn't make it stupid, otherwise you're going to have to lay into Toriyama for writing a fair amount of his plot points in the original manga out of spite for his editors and fans. Something is a stupid development because it will "divide the community"? People disagreeing about a new development renders that development stupid? This is getting absurd.

And no, Toriyama being the one to come up with an idea doesn't make it special. The man could certainly execute it on the page much better, sure, but in terms of originating an idea itself? There's nothing that makes him uniquely exempt from criticism. Are you telling me that in world where the original manga ended with the Cell Games, and Toyotaro wrote the Buu arc, entirely as we know it, that the Buu arc would only then suddenly become poorly written, full of asspulls, etc? No, that's simply stupid. If there is an issue to take with a story, you can take said issue regardless of the author. If changing the author (as in, literally only changing who is credited on the cover) changes what you think of the story, then it's not the story you have an issue with, you simply have an axe to grind against the author. And, well, the crowd around here who come in every month to pitch a giant fit seem to fall very cleanly into that latter category, given this collective chronic inability to fully justify the severity of these random nitpicks.
mute_proxy wrote:How Trunks was conceived was not an important factor since Trunks himself told them that he's the son of Vegeta and Bulma and he'll be born soon. However that doesnt work in this case, not unless they explain right away when and how this happened, which they didn't, and even Vegeta knew what it was, that's quite a big plot hole. If things are left for guessing it's pretty bad writing
Yeah, but like, how are babies even made? Dragon Ball never told me this.

And you're conflating "leaving it for guessing" with "leaving the dots to be connected". When there are dots to connect, if you're remotely capable of inductive reasoning, you'll be able to connect them just fine. You won't be left guessing. Rather, you'll be left to put 2 and 2 together; you'll be left to make the most logical assumption; the answer will be rather obvious. Here, we aren't left guessing. We're left to put 2 and 2 together; we're left to make the most logical assumption; the answer is rather obvious. There's no competition among theories, here. We know what had to be done in order for Goku to learn this technique: at the very least he had to see it. This isn't random guesses. This is very, very, very, very, very simple and basic inductive reasoning. Like when you hear it raining outside and you conclude that there must be clouds in the sky.

Calling this a plot hole is grossly overstating things. What on earth is it even contradicting, besides assumptions? Nobody seems capable of explaining such a basic question. Their knowing this doesn't contradict a single established fact in the series. All it violates are two assumptions: that you need to be a God of Destruction to learn the move, and that they never saw Beerus use the move. There's nothing about these assumptions that uniquely renders them sacred, to the point where them turning out to be untrue is a sign of poor writing. Come back and cry "plotholes!" when it's raining and there aren't clouds in the sky. Until then, try finding a better term to articulate your distaste.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:02 pm

Ikazvyr wrote:So a lot of people who did DBZ, Super and the games are bad artists. We should do an list, don't you think? :lol:
Don't know about DBZ, but sure Super has a lot of pointless homages, but, we're specifically talking about a manga here. I know this is a second lead product and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I would like to see Toyotaro coming with something original for once.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:32 pm

Noah wrote:
Ikazvyr wrote:So a lot of people who did DBZ, Super and the games are bad artists. We should do an list, don't you think? :lol:
Don't know about DBZ, but sure Super has a lot of pointless homages, but, we're specifically talking about a manga here. I know this is a second lead product and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I would like to see Toyotaro coming with something original for once.
That's really a BS criticism I hear a lot from people concerning Toyo's artwork. A lot of his work is original, and this was arguably one of the best looking chapters by far. Very rarely are his "homages" (which are nothing more than reference points which believe it or not, is a very common practice) jarring. Does he employ these because he wants to sneak in fan service for those of who are fans of Z, or is he simply weaker when storyboarding original choreography? I'd argue it's a little bit of both since yes, I do recognize them and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way. This chapter was not one of them.
Noah wrote:

I understood his purpose, I just wanted something better than a scene screaming: "OMG Vegeta kicked Goku to save him!! Thats so funny cause they are rivals and Vegeta did the same in the Android Saga lol"
I didn't get that vibe at all, in fact you're either reaching like you do in the Multiverse thread or we read a different manga. What was illustrated to me was a sense of urgency and desperation to get Goku out of Zamasu's grasp. No saiyan pride bullshit, but just wanting to save a friend. A surprise attack (which if you notice Zamasu was clearly illustrated to be shown caught off guard) which worked and set him up for his finishing technique. Believe me, I would have been incredibly annoyed if Vegeta pulled his usual "I'll be the one to defeat you" crap which has clearly still a go to trope in the anime on many occasions. Them finally working together in terms of a 2 on 2 would have been nice, but I feel like that's still in the cards and hopefully against a better antagonist than Zamasu.

Also, this nonsense about being upset that Goku used Beerus' technique. I'm sorry, but has he not been training with Whis and Beerus the entire time? And why isn't there the same outcry that Frieza not only managed to repel the attack, but harness it and use it? Seems very nonsensical to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Goku says in the chapter that Beerus warned him that Hakai was a dangerous technique.
That is, at some point in the training with Whis, they witnessed Beerus using the technique or the Hakaishin showed them. It is not a matter of supposing, if Beerus warned this to Goku, then he explained about the technique for Saiyajin.

Vegeta is impressed after seeing Goku using Hakai, which means that even though he understood how to use the technique or seeing Beerus use it, they were not able to use it.
And Goku just seems to have achieved after mastering the SSB

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:52 pm

Ok, I read the full Chapter. The translation seemed accurate enough except of one instance of "YOU MOTHER FUCKER!" But there you go.

Anyway, I actually wasn't a huge fan of the action in this chapter. Goku vs Merged Zamasu seemed kind of underwhelming compared to Chapters before it. I just expected more from what seems to be the final battle.

I have no issues with Goku using Hakai. It may be cooler if it was exclusive to Gods of destructions, but it was never said that it was. That was an assumption us fans made. I feel it was an understandable assumption to make, but it was still only and assumption. Goku learning it is actually kind of cool and lets us know how it's done. And it's not like it's something he can spam. At least not yet. Even better since it ended up not working out. In short. I liked it. Goku is using his new found power to use a really powerful new move.

Something really funny about Zamasu tearing off his shirt, almost dying, then growing his shirt back in an instant after thinking about it for a tick. Like, "Oops, got caught up in the moment."

Black and Zamasu bonded on a cellular level? How does that work? So they're still fused together, they're just not a fusion? So weird. Oh well, no time to think about it because he comes Trunks!

I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh at Trunks stabbing Black part. I know it was supposed to be a triumphant moment, but it's just really funny when he stabs a passed out Black in the back and then everyone praises him like he did all the work and everyone else was a bystander. "Trunks defeated Black!" "You did it Trunks! You saved the world!" I got very reminded of the days where I played league of Legends, where people would still the kill from someone who did all the work and get all the experience points.

Or that would be the case if he actually got the kill. Black and Zamasu are still alive and are forming into a fully merged Zamasu. I hope there is an explanation next chapter because I am very confused at how this works right now. Especially if blasting them into more pieces just makes more Merged Zamasus. If they don't then I think I would have rather they just turned into the sky. At least that was freaky and weird. Which I like.

An Ok chapter. Nothing bad. Just a lot of confusion and a not so epic final battle.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:57 pm

Boo Machine wrote: I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh at Trunks stabbing Black part. I know it was supposed to be a triumphant moment, but it's just really funny when he stabs a passed out Black in the back and then everyone praises him like he did all the work and everyone else was a bystander. "Trunks defeated Black!" "You did it Trunks! You saved the world!" I got very reminded of the days where I played league of Legends, where people would still the kill from someone who did all the work and get all the experience points.
I said the same thing, the way Goku was talking, it was if he was humor to appease a five year old "Oh, loo, the baby thinks it did something, IT'S SO CUTE!"
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:06 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Or that would be the case if he actually got the kill. Black and Zamasu are still alive and are forming into a fully merged Zamasu. I hope there is an explanation next chapter because I am very confused at how this works right now. Especially if blasting them into more pieces just makes more Merged Zamasus.
I think that because Black & Zamasu were merged to a cellular level thanks to them being the same person that some of Merged Zamasu's cells remained in both of them after the split, and he fully regenerated from these remaining cells. As for why he is multiplying, his regeneration is magical & he is supposed to be truly immortal, so each of his parts regenerate a full body.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:43 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Black and Zamasu are still alive and are forming into a fully merged Zamasu. I hope there is an explanation next chapter because I am very confused at how this works right now. Especially if blasting them into more pieces just makes more Merged Zamasus.
I think we've gotten all the explanation we're going to. Since both Fusees were actually the same person, they physically bonded to a level where they were inseparable. So when they actually were separated, they retained each other's attributes, making them essentially the same as they were pre-separation. As for the multiple Zamasu's, I'd guess it's only because Vegeta damaged him so badly, there was no "core" to regenerate from, so each piece independently recreated Zamasu's body.



I was going to wait for Viz's translation to give my thoughts on this chapter, but what the hell! May as well do that now while I'm in the mood.

I actually think the chapter was pretty lame. It doesn't technically contradict anything, but it's a huge stretch. As in, this was made up with no thought put into having it line up with some precedent, which is uncharacteristic for Toyotaro, and a sizeable step down from his normal standard. I'd even say this version of Zamasu's fusion is far less believable than the anime, where everything works just fine due to the unpredictable nature of mixing mortality and immortality within that continuity. I think what might have happened is in trying to deviate from the anime wherever possible, Toyotaro wrote himself into a corner with no plausible way out, so he (ironically) resorted to a common tactic of the DBS anime, which is to prioritize throwing a whole bucket full of off cool shit and hoping it sticks over actually maintaining narrative coherence, or even sound explanations. I know I was just all over someone who suggested that some might just be defending this chapter for the artwork, and while I'd like to disagree with him, I think there's probably something to that, because while I don't think the chapter was all that good, the artwork was absolutely beautiful.

That aside, here are examples of questions I'd have if Toyotaro was in front of me right this second: If pieces of Zamasu can regenerate into a whole body, why didn't two new Zamasu's grow out of the hands that Vegetto Blue cut off a couple of chapters back? If two versions of the same person have a hard time separating, why waste precious panel space having it happen at all? You could just as well have Gowasu note that he hasn't separated after an hour and have Trunks cut Zamasu into pieces while he's distracted by something, and everything would still flow just fine. Taking those measures would've saved at least 10 pages and would've had the exact same effect.

Overall, the impression I get from this chapter is that Toyotaro's trying to make his story "cool" by emulating the approach of the TV show. Maybe I'm wrong and this is just a fluke, but that's my position for now.


PS: Oh, and the destruction technique is fine. I don't understand the problem with a subversion of expectations. That's what the manga's thrived on for the majority of its run.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Generico Garbagio » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:01 pm

This chapter is where I stopped hoping the manga would be better than the anime... :(

First the Goku Hakai that seemed like an even bigger asspull than the Spirit Bomb Sword... But at least Zamasu saved it and made it ok. But then to defuse into two fused beings was a bit much. Then Vegeta had the chance to do something for once... And it made everything even more awfully bad.

I did like the anime ending to the arc though so maybe I'm biased. I like that everyone just lost except Future Zeno. I know that he'll probably be the one to end the arc in the manga, too, but at this point, incredibly, I feel like the anime had less ridiculous turns of events...

If you did read it please tell me how.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by KameNinja45 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:04 pm

I thought this chapter was meh. There were things I liked but there were a lot more things I disliked.
Zamasu ripping his shirt off was great, it showed us that he was reaching his limit and the fight was at its climax. But nope, he regenerates them for some reason. Feels like the entire Goku vs. Zamasu fight was meaningless now.
Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was cool, much better than what he did in the anime, but Black and Zamasu each transforming into another Merged Zamasu? And them multiplying to create even more? It feels like the fight is just being stretched out. Also, Trunks getting one-shot by both Merged Zamasu and Black was just hilarious.
I'm sorta getting annoyed with all the "homages" Toyotaro is making. If they were just easter eggs that didn't affect the plot, I'd love them. But nope. Merged Zamasu multiplying felt like a Buu thing, heck, he even did it in Xenoverse. Vegeta's "My Trunks!" was literally just a carbon copy of what he did in BOG (also Vegeta was near-death at that point, how did he even..?).
Zamasu's personality seems like it just vanished. He hasn't said anything since his initial multiplication. He feels a lot more bland and faceless.
And of course, there's the Hakai. I won't go into this one too much. But guys, no matter what explanation you come up with, it's an asspull. That's objective. There was NO foreshadowing to this, at all. Even hypothetical situations are questionable. We know that Goku has seen the Hakai, off-screen, but what kind of situation would arise that Beerus would have to use it? It's not something he just uses on a daily basis.
And Goku stating that he's seen the Hakai before doesn't do anything. That was just Toyotaro trying to justify this.
There were definitely some things I liked about this chapter, though. It just felt great. The fights were intense, the art was phenomenal, and it all felt very tense. The overall feel was there, not too sure about the plot though.
Also, Gamma Burst Flash. It's stupid, but I love it, even if it's probably just a marketing ploy.
I'd give the whole chapter a 6/10. This whole climax (chapters 23-25) has been very lackluster so far. Hopefully things improve in the next chapter.
And it's not gonna finish next chapter. No way. 27 at the latest.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:09 pm

The worst thing Zamasu could have done was break Trunks' sword, he's probably going to have a spirit bomb sword shoved up his arse next chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MathSSJ » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:20 pm

LightBing wrote:
MathSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:I understand why people are questioning the cellular tidbit in principle, logically it's weird. The problem is your applying - real life - logic to it.

We were all perfectly fine with magic earrings that fuse people, which we accepted because a God told us that's what it does. Yet when another God says the cellular part, which is just continuing the "it's magic" explanation, suddenly it's questionable?
It doesn't contradict anything from before, so the writing isn't the problem.

The cognitive dissonance is strong!
Curious: Is the "bad air" excuse ok for you then? Because the same the thing to be honest.
It's almost the same thing. The difference is that the "bad air" is completely out of nowhere and looks like a way out for the sake of it.
The cellular thing has a bit of precedents, it fits with the weird characteristics of the Potaras (rival boost) and the characters personality and obsession. The latter values it beyond a tidbit for the sake of the plot, it reinforces the villains personality to the extreme, leading to this development.

Not to say that I like the "bad air" excuse, specially when it's been recently retconned and we can say it was an excuse from Mr.Toriyama to cover the previously established rule that Potara's Fusions were forever. A product of the "write by the seat of your pants" that was going on.
Fair enough if it works for you. I can't buy the cellular thing because while, yes, they are both still Zamasu on a spiritual level, Black's body is still that of Goku. The rival boost, while it made my eyebrows frown for a bit on the first read, still can be somewhat rationalized as being part of the Potara's magical interaction with the concept of Ki.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:54 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:[spoiler]I was going to wait for Viz's translation to give my thoughts on this chapter, but what the hell! May as well do that now while I'm in the mood.

I actually think the chapter was pretty lame. It doesn't technically contradict anything, but it's a huge stretch. As in, this was made up with no thought put into having it line up with some precedent, which is uncharacteristic for Toyotaro, and a sizeable step down from his normal standard. I'd even say this version of Zamasu's fusion is far less believable than the anime, where everything works just fine due to the unpredictable nature of mixing mortality and immortality within that continuity. I think what might have happened is in trying to deviate from the anime wherever possible, Toyotaro wrote himself into a corner with no plausible way out, so he (ironically) resorted to a common tactic of the DBS anime, which is to prioritize throwing a whole bucket full of off cool shit and hoping it sticks over actually maintaining narrative coherence, or even sound explanations. I know I was just all over someone who suggested that some might just be defending this chapter for the artwork, and while I'd like to disagree with him, I think there's probably something to that, because while I don't think the chapter was all that good, the artwork was absolutely beautiful.

That aside, here are examples of questions I'd have if Toyotaro was in front of me right this second: If pieces of Zamasu can regenerate into a whole body, why didn't two new Zamasu's grow out of the hands that Vegetto Blue cut off a couple of chapters back? If two versions of the same person have a hard time separating, why waste precious panel space having it happen at all? You could just as well have Gowasu note that he hasn't separated after an hour and have Trunks cut Zamasu into pieces while he's distracted by something, and everything would still flow just fine. Taking those measures would've saved at least 10 pages and would've had the exact same effect.

Overall, the impression I get from this chapter is that Toyotaro's trying to make his story "cool" by emulating the approach of the TV show. Maybe I'm wrong and this is just a fluke, but that's my position for now.


PS: Oh, and the destruction technique is fine. I don't understand the problem with a subversion of expectations. That's what the manga's thrived on for the majority of its run.[/spoiler]
What it seems to is that before the time limit Zamasu didn't have these new properties. Only when the time limit expired and he was forcefully resisting the undoing of the fusion did he gain them.
I think seeing the development is necessary. Not only it's some nice and creepy looking panels but they are the culmination of Zamasu's obsession with perfection and being the "Ultimate God".

While the cellular connection is ultimately the reason for this happening, Black and Zamasu willing it to happen is a factor we should take into consideration and something Toyotarõ tried to show us.

About the multiplying Fused Zamasus, I would be shocked if Toyotarõ didn't offer some sort of explanation for it. The last part of the chapter is built as cliffhanger and literally ends questioning this.

I currently find the development silly, for the lack of a better word, I hope Toyotarõ gives me something to make me like it. I fear this is a plot point from Mr.Toriyama, which he didn't offer any reason for. Both manga and anime having no idea how to rationalize it successfully.
We shall see next month if that's the case.
MathSSJ wrote:Fair enough if it works for you. I can't buy the cellular thing because while, yes, they are both still Zamasu on a spiritual level, Black's body is still that of Goku. The rival boost, while it made my eyebrows frown for a bit on the first read, still can be somewhat rationalized as being part of the Potara's magical interaction with the concept of Ki.
Well, the mental component of Ki should be present in both situations.
I can totally understand the queerness of two different bodies making the cellular connection and why people would be weird out. I also scratched my head. Part of my previous post was making a joke about how people hold their little isolate dogmas, which are completely contradictory to everything else they believe.

I would say this is a case of Ki over physical form. Probably if Toyotarõ didn't pick cellular as the key word, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

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