"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[mahakaishin1991]

Keep in mind, the anime is not the same as the manga. This chapter should have proved that to you.


I don't see character growth like that happening in this version and also see a lot of fodder including our own being wiped out in one go.

pfft no need for the attitude.

I just dont see why they'd re order the forms when true legendary is her final achievement, and losing control is a downgrade of that form.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying she starts with her normal SS form. Loses control and goes berserk, then controls it and retains her SS form. Since Kale already can control her ki and such in the manga in base compared to the anime, I suspect she already has some control of her SS form.

I was referring to her true legendary form, so I think we miscommunicated somewhere down the line

[mfwlegend3]

Another pretty good chapter, I prefer it over the anime, as with Toyo's version of the arc in general. Would have liked to see Goku vs Freeza, since that battle looked like it was intense, but I understand pages are limited. U6 made the chapter for me.

Kuririn standing next to 18 looks so awkward, though.

[prince212]

New drawing by Toyotaro:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Looks great, I like da hair style

[mute_proxy]

I like that she has a nice proportionate chin unlike in most of his drawings

[TysonWine]

Not to keep this an Anime vs Manga discussion, but the one thing the anime has gotten universal praise for is its portrayal of Frieza. The manga has already dropped the ball on the Frieza hype. Let's see if it will pick up in the tournament.

That's actually something I've hated with the anime. Frieza isn't supposed to be portrayed as "cool" or "hype". He's quite literally an unrepentant child-murdering narcissistic sociopath, who has tortured and killed many characters onscreen and off. In addition, Toriyama made sure to humiliate him at the end of the Namek arc, the beginning of the android arc and again in Resurrection F as comeuppance for his actions. Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated since he's meant to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, unlike Cell of Buu. That's why I strongly disagree with what the anime is doing, and why I hope Toyotaro remembers what Frieza's role actually is.

Villains can't be hyped? Villains can't have cool moments? He may be a murdering, torturing sociopath, but he has a connection to the cast that can lead to interesting scenes and plot points. If you prefer Frieza not be involved in this arc, that's fine. A lot of people would take Yamcha in his place. Rather or not he should be participating is a different conversation. Toriyama decided he is, so we move on. What's next is how he's portrayed. Some may not want him to be there, but if he is, I would prefer him to be enjoyable. That goes for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're going to be apart of the story, take up time on my screen or take up panels in the manga, I want them to be worthwhile.

You're suggesting that because Frieza's evil, he doesn't deserve to be written to his full potential. Should Toyotaro go out of his way to make Frieza's fights as bland as possible, because according to you, he doesn't even warrant entertaining fights. Was Frieza not worthy of his transformation, killing U9 henchmen, and tanking energy destruction scenes? I'm not sure Toei lowering the budget and quality of the Golden Frieza transformation, because "It serves him right!" is the way to go about handling the character.

"Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated."

I think his role should depend on whatever plans are in store for him. There's been theories that Frieza is being set up to win the tournament and become the main villain once again. I don't think that's going to happen, don't prefer for it to happen, but lets say it does. Doesn't it need to be set up the right way? Frieza was humiliated in the Namek arc, Android arc, and in ROF as ways to say that was the end of his chapter. Well, the book has been opened and pages are being added. Based on history, a humiliating defeat is probably what Frieza has in store for him when the book of Frieza closes for the final time. However, we're not there yet, and my entire point is that up until that time comes I want to enjoy the ride.

[Analytical Delusion]

Not to keep this an Anime vs Manga discussion, but the one thing the anime has gotten universal praise for is its portrayal of Frieza. The manga has already dropped the ball on the Frieza hype. Let's see if it will pick up in the tournament.

That's actually something I've hated with the anime. Frieza isn't supposed to be portrayed as "cool" or "hype". He's quite literally an unrepentant child-murdering narcissistic sociopath, who has tortured and killed many characters onscreen and off. In addition, Toriyama made sure to humiliate him at the end of the Namek arc, the beginning of the android arc and again in Resurrection F as comeuppance for his actions. Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated since he's meant to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, unlike Cell of Buu. That's why I strongly disagree with what the anime is doing, and why I hope Toyotaro remembers what Frieza's role actually is.

Villains can't be hyped? Villains can't have cool moments? He may be a murdering, torturing sociopath, but he has a connection to the cast that can lead to interesting scenes and plot points. If you prefer Frieza not be involved in this arc, that's fine. A lot of people would take Yamcha in his place. Rather or not he should be participating is a different conversation. Toriyama decided he is, so we move on. What's next is how he's portrayed. Some may not want him to be there, but if he is, I would prefer him to be enjoyable. That goes for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're going to be apart of the story, take up time on my screen or take up panels in the manga, I want them to be worthwhile.

You're suggesting that because Frieza's evil, he doesn't deserve to be written to his full potential. Should Toyotaro go out of his way to make Frieza's fights as bland as possible, because according to you, he doesn't even warrant entertaining fights. Was Frieza not worthy of his transformation, killing U9 henchmen, and tanking energy destruction scenes? I'm not sure Toei lowering the budget and quality of the Golden Frieza transformation, because "It serves him right!" is the way to go about handling the character.

"Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated."

I think his role should depend on whatever plans are in store for him. There's been theories that Frieza is being set up to win the tournament and become the main villain once again. I don't think that's going to happen, don't prefer for it to happen, but lets say it does. Doesn't it need to be set up the right way? Frieza was humiliated in the Namek arc, Android arc, and in ROF as ways to say that was the end of his chapter. Well, the book has been opened and pages are being added. Based on history, a humiliating defeat is probably what Frieza has in store for him when the book of Frieza closes for the final time. However, we're not there yet, and my entire point is that up until that time comes I want to enjoy the ride.

Terrific post, and I agree all-around.

I do understand your initial point RE:Freeza, but I think Toyotaro just wanted to get into the tournament. It seems the U9/U4 subplot was filler (or not in Toriyama's outlines rather). If Freeza has boring fights during the ToP, and he's missing a lot of the exposition/awesome characterization present in the anime, I'll be very disappointed.

[Lord Beerus]

New drawing by Toyotaro:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I miss Lunch.

Better to miss lunch than breakfast.

Entering crazy theory mode to get ready for the hiatus hysteria: Toyotarõ drawing Lunch = early Dragon Ball = Dragon Ball reboot on the horizon!

Dragon Ball reboot where all the male characters are woman.

[Majin Jator]

Not to keep this an Anime vs Manga discussion, but the one thing the anime has gotten universal praise for is its portrayal of Frieza. The manga has already dropped the ball on the Frieza hype. Let's see if it will pick up in the tournament.

That's actually something I've hated with the anime. Frieza isn't supposed to be portrayed as "cool" or "hype". He's quite literally an unrepentant child-murdering narcissistic sociopath, who has tortured and killed many characters onscreen and off. In addition, Toriyama made sure to humiliate him at the end of the Namek arc, the beginning of the android arc and again in Resurrection F as comeuppance for his actions. Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated since he's meant to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, unlike Cell of Buu. That's why I strongly disagree with what the anime is doing, and why I hope Toyotaro remembers what Frieza's role actually is.

Villains can't be hyped? Villains can't have cool moments? He may be a murdering, torturing sociopath, but he has a connection to the cast that can lead to interesting scenes and plot points. If you prefer Frieza not be involved in this arc, that's fine. A lot of people would take Yamcha in his place. Rather or not he should be participating is a different conversation. Toriyama decided he is, so we move on. What's next is how he's portrayed. Some may not want him to be there, but if he is, I would prefer him to be enjoyable. That goes for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're going to be apart of the story, take up time on my screen or take up panels in the manga, I want them to be worthwhile.

You're suggesting that because Frieza's evil, he doesn't deserve to be written to his full potential. Should Toyotaro go out of his way to make Frieza's fights as bland as possible, because according to you, he doesn't even warrant entertaining fights. Was Frieza not worthy of his transformation, killing U9 henchmen, and tanking energy destruction scenes? I'm not sure Toei lowering the budget and quality of the Golden Frieza transformation, because "It serves him right!" is the way to go about handling the character.

"Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated."

I think his role should depend on whatever plans are in store for him. There's been theories that Frieza is being set up to win the tournament and become the main villain once again. I don't think that's going to happen, don't prefer for it to happen, but lets say it does. Doesn't it need to be set up the right way? Frieza was humiliated in the Namek arc, Android arc, and in ROF as ways to say that was the end of his chapter. Well, the book has been opened and pages are being added. Based on history, a humiliating defeat is probably what Frieza has in store for him when the book of Frieza closes for the final time. However, we're not there yet, and my entire point is that up until that time comes I want to enjoy the ride.

TKA has a point, though: The manga portrayal of Freeza is more consistent with his established personality. You can argue that after dying two times and have some time to reflect in Hell, he can change his ways and become more of a subtle schemer, and even relax around his most hated enemy. And I'll agree that it can be seen as a believable character growth. That doesn't change the fact that is a different portrayal driven by character popularity.

[Totamo]

Not to keep this an Anime vs Manga discussion, but the one thing the anime has gotten universal praise for is its portrayal of Frieza. The manga has already dropped the ball on the Frieza hype. Let's see if it will pick up in the tournament.

That's actually something I've hated with the anime. Frieza isn't supposed to be portrayed as "cool" or "hype". He's quite literally an unrepentant child-murdering narcissistic sociopath, who has tortured and killed many characters onscreen and off. In addition, Toriyama made sure to humiliate him at the end of the Namek arc, the beginning of the android arc and again in Resurrection F as comeuppance for his actions. Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated since he's meant to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, unlike Cell of Buu. That's why I strongly disagree with what the anime is doing, and why I hope Toyotaro remembers what Frieza's role actually is.

Villains can't be hyped? Villains can't have cool moments? He may be a murdering, torturing sociopath, but he has a connection to the cast that can lead to interesting scenes and plot points. If you prefer Frieza not be involved in this arc, that's fine. A lot of people would take Yamcha in his place. Rather or not he should be participating is a different conversation. Toriyama decided he is, so we move on. What's next is how he's portrayed. Some may not want him to be there, but if he is, I would prefer him to be enjoyable. That goes for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're going to be apart of the story, take up time on my screen or take up panels in the manga, I want them to be worthwhile.

You're suggesting that because Frieza's evil, he doesn't deserve to be written to his full potential. Should Toyotaro go out of his way to make Frieza's fights as bland as possible, because according to you, he doesn't even warrant entertaining fights. Was Frieza not worthy of his transformation, killing U9 henchmen, and tanking energy destruction scenes? I'm not sure Toei lowering the budget and quality of the Golden Frieza transformation, because "It serves him right!" is the way to go about handling the character.

"Frieza's only role in the story should be to be humiliated."

I think his role should depend on whatever plans are in store for him. There's been theories that Frieza is being set up to win the tournament and become the main villain once again. I don't think that's going to happen, don't prefer for it to happen, but lets say it does. Doesn't it need to be set up the right way? Frieza was humiliated in the Namek arc, Android arc, and in ROF as ways to say that was the end of his chapter. Well, the book has been opened and pages are being added. Based on history, a humiliating defeat is probably what Frieza has in store for him when the book of Frieza closes for the final time. However, we're not there yet, and my entire point is that up until that time comes I want to enjoy the ride.

The thing is, this is consistent with Freeza's character. In fact, this is how people predicted he would act. He is not going to be cool, calm and collected around Goku. He will be petty and be extraordinarily hard work with.


But like we all said, just because it makes sense, does not mean we have to like it.

[Totamo]

I miss Lunch.

Better to miss lunch than breakfast.

Entering crazy theory mode to get ready for the hiatus hysteria: Toyotarõ drawing Lunch = early Dragon Ball = Dragon Ball reboot on the horizon!

Dragon Ball reboot where all the male characters are woman.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh do you really want Toriyama and Toei writing that with the tendency for perv jokes?

[Ilikepictures-meh]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

[Steven Bloodriver]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

It is likely not all of the Saiyans in Universe 6 have sufficient control over their Ki. Or it is just because of an estranged son of a Troll following in his father's footsteps.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

It is likely not all of the Saiyans in Universe 6 have sufficient control over their Ki. Or it is just because of an estranged son of a Troll following in his father's footsteps.

Don't know what the hell you're on about with this "son of a troll" bit. But apparently all the U6 Saiyan's don't have ki control, otherwise they wouldn't be using ray guns.

[LightBing]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

From the interview below we know Saiyans need to learn basic techniques like flying, basic ki blasts are in that same category. We even have Goten who as a Super Saiyan couldn't fly neither could he control ki blasts properly, the perfect example.
While this in regards to Universe 7 it's fair to assume the same applies to Universe 6.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... pecial-qa/

[batistabus]

Krillin is good at running away. No, he is definitely not a skilled tactician and martial artist or something like that.

Yes, because an inelegant, emotionally-undeveloped hick like Goku would say "You're a skilled tactician, Krillin! That's why I need you on my team even if you aren't the strongest around!" You forgetting this is the same Goku that told Piccolo he'd be useless after Piccolo was in the RoSaT during the Cell arc? He isn't malicious; he's direct because he doesn't know any better. He's acknowledging how skilled Krillin is.

Exactly. Kuririn isn't worthless, but there's no reason to pretend he's any stronger than he actually is. He admits he hasn't been training, and is probably weaker than Shisami. What he has done is demonstrate an ability to survive situations where he's pitted against much stronger opponents. He didn't run then because he was a coward, he did it because he understood the situation and it was the only option. Of course he was scared, but Goku isn't mocking him for that here.

Also, I don't remember anyone complaining about this scene.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

Let's not forget that many of Freeza's soldiers use blasters. While Saiyans are generally stronger than earthlings, they don't all have the same potential to become Super. This guy was clearly outclassed by Califla, so he resorted to technology.

[Namz]

Krillin is good at running away. No, he is definitely not a skilled tactician and martial artist or something like that.

Yes, because an inelegant, emotionally-undeveloped hick like Goku would say "You're a skilled tactician, Krillin! That's why I need you on my team even if you aren't the strongest around!" You forgetting this is the same Goku that told Piccolo he'd be useless after Piccolo was in the RoSaT during the Cell arc? He isn't malicious; he's direct because he doesn't know any better. He's acknowledging how skilled Krillin is.

Exactly. Kuririn isn't worthless, but there's no reason to pretend he's any stronger than he actually is. He admits he hasn't been training, and is probably weaker than Shisami. What he has done is demonstrate an ability to survive situations where he's pitted against much stronger opponents. He didn't run then because he was a coward, he did it because he understood the situation and it was the only option. Of course he was scared, but Goku isn't mocking him for that here.

Also, I don't remember anyone complaining about this scene.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So no one finds it strange that U6 Saiyan's apparently need to use blasters/guns? You'd think they'd all at least know how to shoot a basic ki blast

Let's not forget that many of Freeza's soldiers use blasters. While Saiyans are generally stronger than earthlings, they don't all have the same potential to become Super. This guy was clearly outclassed by Califla, so he resorted to technology.

That's only because Goku believed Frost beat him fair and square

[Bullza]

So how long do you think it will take for the manga to reach the end of the Tournament?

Do you think it will then continue on from that point and then after its had some space, there will be another series that will then adapt this new material?

[Ki Breaker]

I miss Lunch.

... Who?

[Hawk9211]

I miss Lunch.

... Who?

Me too,she literally had the most personality.

[TKA]

Villains can't be hyped?

Villains are tools serving a story. If a villain needs to be "hyped" it should be to raise the stakes of the story. Frieza was "hyped" throughout the Namek Arc by constantly being referred to as more powerful than everyone else. This escalated the tension/stakes in the story. "How will the heroes prevail when Frieza is 1000x stronger than Ginyu?!"

Villains can't have cool moments?

Writing is fluid. Art is flexible. There are few objective rules. In general, however, "cool" villains are meant to be anti-heroes, or in rarer cases, anti-villains (Vegeta in the Namek saga). Frieza was not a cool villain. He was just a villain and Toriyama made great efforts to give him no redeeming qualities.

If you prefer Frieza not be involved in this arc, that's fine.

Yes, I would prefer that. Every time he returns to the story, his character loses more of its impact. But he's part of this now, so the least they can do is preserve him as a villain and not as a "grumpy," "tsundere" or whatever other typical anime nonsense trope you find in characters in a similar position.

Toriyama decided he is, so we move on

Yes, we agree.

What's next is how he's portrayed. Some may not want him to be there, but if he is, I would prefer him to be enjoyable.

See, this is where I take issue. "Enjoyable" doesn't have to mean him arrogantly quipping or having moments where he does cool things. "Enjoyable" could simply be him being the Frieza in Toriyama's manga where he's evil and the story doesn't try to make you go "Hahaha, oh Frieza, you scamp you!" or "Frieza, you're so cool!"

What happened to the Frieza who stabbed a guy in the back when he backed away from Trunks, and we were meant to be disgusted? What happened to the Frieza who tortured Nail and we weren't supposed to think that's cool, but heinous? It's all about portrayal.

That goes for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're going to be apart of the story, take up time on my screen or take up panels in the manga, I want them to be worthwhile.

"Worthwhile" also is subjective. Worthwhile for me is consistency; whether that be thematic or otherwise. Frieza becoming the grumpy old not-so-bad bad guy, the "Token Evil Teammate," as it were, is not worthwhile for me. Rather, it conflicts with the Namek arc too much. Everyone else that has changed from villain did so in front of our eyes gradually and had redeeming qualities to begin with. Again, Frieza was expressly designed to have none.

You're suggesting that because Frieza's evil, he doesn't deserve to be written to his full potential.

Absolutely not. I should emphasize here that I don't give a shit about a power level discussion right now. Frieza's full potential is as a villain. It is being villainous. That's why he's the standout villain in Dragonball. Cell was cool, and Buu was funny. But Frieza was strictly evil. I won't pretend I have the answer for how you preserve that in an arc like this, but I hope Toyotaro does.

Should Toyotaro go out of his way to make Frieza's fights as bland as possible, because according to you, he doesn't even warrant entertaining fights.

You sure misunderstood everything I said. Frieza's "fights" shouldn't be bland. He shouldn't be fighting at all. Frieza was at his most menacing when he was sitting in a chair and giving out orders and killing children. As far as I see it, Frieza's fights should focus on the fact that he isn't in this for a fight at all. Preserve his villainy, not try to make him tough or cool. I don't care to discuss how I would do it or whatever, but as long as the work keeps portraying him as a villain and NOT as a frienemy, everything will be fine.

Was Frieza not worthy of his transformation, killing U9 henchmen, and tanking energy destruction scenes? I'm not sure Toei lowering the budget and quality of the Golden Frieza transformation, because "It serves him right!" is the way to go about handling the character.

It's called restraint. I do wish Toei hadn't gone the way of creating an ostentatious golden transformation sequence, with shining lights and frenetic animation for him. That isn't Frieza. His character is oppressive and does things at his own pace. A slower, more ominous, but equally well-drawn and animated sequence would've fit the character more.

Let me put it this way. Batman is all about brooding in the shadows, right? What if someone animated him like he's in Kill La Kill? It creates an instant dissonance because the animation doesn't match the character, right? When you think Batman, you think a guy moving around in the shadows, silhouetted and stalking criminals. That's why the stylized animation of Batman TAS works for him. Same for Frieza. The character is best when he's animated with ominousness in mind. This is rather difficult to explain with just words, so I won't belabor this point. Do feel free to reply to it if you wish though.

I think his role should depend on whatever plans are in store for him. There's been theories that Frieza is being set up to win the tournament and become the main villain once again.

I disagree. Otherwise, a lot of previous stuff gets invalidated. Vegeta crying to Goku to kill Frieza because he's so evil? Invalidated. Trunks brushing Frieza off like he's not even a threat? Invalidated. Goku and Vegeta doing the same thing to him in Resurrection F? Invalidated.

Frieza was the pure evil villain of the Namek arc. After he got humiliated at the end of the Arc by Goku, he showed up twice more to be humiliated again. Him becoming domesticated makes the Namek arc a very strange read. Him somehow becoming a threat again makes his latter two appearances strange as well, and they will undercut whatever gravitas the writers try to give him in this role.

However, we're not there yet, and my entire point is that up until that time comes I want to enjoy the ride.

That's fine. But the way I enjoy the ride is for Frieza's character to remain consistent. I don't enjoy things like Zamas and Black hugging. I don't enjoy things like them drinking tea, or Zamas saying "I like to hear myself talk." I don't find those things to be compelling things to add to villains. They're amusing in the moment, but they hold very little if any narrative merit or weight. Frieza doing "lol Frieza " things doesn't jive with the character he was in his last 3 appearances. Frieza should be doing "Fucking Frieza " things.