"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Freeza in the anime was WAY smarter with this approach.

I don’t like to compare , but since everybody does .... freeza manga acts like the freeza that we knew from before ( at least in this 2 last chapters ) freeza anime is ambiguous, very inconsistent since the beginning , to the point that he donate energy to Goku just to say one of the most unexpected things he made .
Freeza mvp manga in this beginning

So what you say is that you like manga Freeza more because he is more one-dimensional and this way he is more recognizable for you? For an already so one-dimensional character as Freeza is I do not like that at all. I am glad they did a bit more with him in this arc. At least it was something.

It's never a bad thing for a villain characterization to evolve. I'm really happy with how they handled in the anime. He's still petty, vain and has a deep resentment towards Goku and the gang, but he isn't so blinded by his hatred for them that this willing to fuck the main cast over in a scenario where he could come back to life and possibly get any wish he wants.

[prince212]

Freeza in the anime was WAY smarter with this approach.

I don’t like to compare , but since everybody does .... freeza manga acts like the freeza that we knew from before ( at least in this 2 last chapters ) freeza anime is ambiguous, very inconsistent since the beginning , to the point that he donate energy to Goku just to say one of the most unexpected things he made .
Freeza mvp manga in this beginning

So what you say is that you like manga Freeza more because he is more one-dimensional and this way he is more recognizable for you? For an already so one-dimensional character as Freeza is I do not like that at all. I am glad they did a bit more with him in this arc. At least it was something.

Kind of that yes , I like freeza being freeza , don’t want him to become friendly, doesn’t fit him imo.
I like Freeza as a cold temper , don’t like him to be warm .

[Cetra]

I don’t like to compare , but since everybody does .... freeza manga acts like the freeza that we knew from before ( at least in this 2 last chapters ) freeza anime is ambiguous, very inconsistent since the beginning , to the point that he donate energy to Goku just to say one of the most unexpected things he made .
Freeza mvp manga in this beginning

So what you say is that you like manga Freeza more because he is more one-dimensional and this way he is more recognizable for you? For an already so one-dimensional character as Freeza is I do not like that at all. I am glad they did a bit more with him in this arc. At least it was something.

Kind of that yes , I like freeza being freeza , don’t want him to become friendly, doesn’t fit him imo.
I like Freeza as a cold temper , don’t like him to be warm .

???

But Freeza is not friendly. He is a pragmatic and just because of that he did what he did in the tournament. He did not do it because he felt so generous and liked Goku so much that he wanted to do something for him. He just knew he would need him later. Same for the other situations. Freeza also knows he is not allowed to do idiotic stuff because then Beerus erases him.

[Marlowe89]

Eh, I’d say that what makes the anime version more impactful than the manga version was Roh begging Zeno not to do it, followed by Zeno erasing them so nonchalantly. That honestly invoked more sympathy from me, showed that Zeno doesn’t care if you’re begging, if you lose, you’re gone.

The problem is that Roh was the only character doing that, and, well, it's Roh. Constantly scheming and gloating behind the scenes only to beg for mercy when on the losing end is exactly the kind of thing he would do given his characterization in the anime, which just made him come across as more cowardly than anything. That's all good and consistent, but emotionally impactful? Nah.

A character like Bergamo is honestly more likely to invoke sympathy from me than a character like Roh any day of the week.

Toyble did not invest that much and this also led to less gain.

I don't see how Toyotaro investing less time into Universe 9 having this incredibly foolhardy grudge takes away from the emotional appeal. They're just a team fighting for their lives and their universe, which is conveyed eloquently enough through their dialogue. They weren't the first to fall because of some stupidly reckless plan like in the anime -- they were the first to fall simply because they were caught in the crossfire of a much more sinister scheme involving Frieza and Frost. They didn't purposely contribute to their own demise, so I find it much easier to feel for them in that light.

[prince212]

So what you say is that you like manga Freeza more because he is more one-dimensional and this way he is more recognizable for you? For an already so one-dimensional character as Freeza is I do not like that at all. I am glad they did a bit more with him in this arc. At least it was something.

Kind of that yes , I like freeza being freeza , don’t want him to become friendly, doesn’t fit him imo.
I like Freeza as a cold temper , don’t like him to be warm .

???

But Freeza is not friendly. He is a pragmatic and just because of that he did what he did in the tournament. He did not do it because he felt so generous and liked Goku so much that he wanted to do something for him. He just knew he would need him later. Same for the other situations.

May be friendly is not the correct word .. it’s not that I dislike it that much , is just that he had some manga moments that really fit him and I said WOW ... and I could enjoy that much in the anime version or have the same feeling

[Cetra]

I don't see how Toyotaro investing less time into Universe 9 having this incredibly foolhardy grudge takes away from the emotional appeal. They're just a team fighting for their lives and their universe, which is conveyed eloquently enough through their dialogue.

Wait ... you don't see how investing more time to build up the overall relation between two Universes and the emotion that comes from the one universe because of this whole situation has more emotional appeal? Their was a lot more exposition to fill the "emotional impression bar" (yeah, I made that one up but you get it) so of course it is easy for other people to get a lot more emotionally invested.

Let me take the Cinematic Movie Game Life is Strange as an example. The deuteragonist's friend vanished and she does not know where she is. We also do not see her but we hear of her. Of course this way we get to know that she means a lot to her. But then we got the prequel where they actually explored the relationship between them helping you to get a lot more emotionally attached and truly understand what it was about. DBS of course has two different media so it is because of that not exactly the same but this is about the investment and gain through narrative exposition, screentime, et cetera to make it feel a lot more natural and bring it closer to the consumer - so it does not really matter that I compare those two cases, you still get the gist of it.

[Marlowe89]

Wait ... you don't see how investing more time to build up the overall relation between two Universes and the emotion that comes from the one universe because of this whole situation has more emotional appeal?

In the context of being portrayed as sympathetic characters when they lost in the tournament, i.e. the whole point of this discussion? No, I really don't.

It's honestly no more complicated than how I described the situation in my previous post. In the anime, Universe 9 being the first to lose was a direct consequence of a reckless plan concocted by Universe 9 themselves. In the manga, they lost first because they were the victims of malevolent devices from equally malevolent characters that were entirely out of their control. When this finally culminates in the brief moment that their team and their entire universe is mercilessly wiped from existence -- combined with Bergamo's reaction in the manga just moments prior to that event -- I find myself far more inclined to feel sorry for them in the latter's context as opposed to the former's.

[prince212]

Eh, I’d say that what makes the anime version more impactful than the manga version was Roh begging Zeno not to do it, followed by Zeno erasing them so nonchalantly. That honestly invoked more sympathy from me, showed that Zeno doesn’t care if you’re begging, if you lose, you’re gone.

If you change roh with Bergamo and Zeno with piccolo-freeza , that same happened in the manga .
I agree anime was more impactful, don’t know if is because we already saw lot of universes disappear in the anime ,the music, the need of more begging-crying panels or just that manga didn’t offer that much of u9 information like the exhibition tournament

[CriticalThinker]

Honestly I'll prefer this version of the tournament more if Ribrianne and Toppo do better here than they did in the anime. If they don't then this version is dead to me. Yes I am that petty. Though I don't dislike the anime version as much as some do, I can never forgive them for the horrible mishandling of Toppo. Other than Dyspo he was the only other one from the pride troopers I liked and to see him be handled so poorly was disappointing. I guess this is a problem I have with this arc overall is that a lot of the new characters ended up being disappointing. I include Jiren as well not because he was weak like a lot of the new characters but because of his poor character and rather bland design. I think the only characters that didn't totally disappoint me in the end was Caulifla and Kale. This probably why I'm now fine with so many characters getting tossed out so quickly in the manga version because if this does indeed lead to the other big fighters getting more focus than they did in the anime, then I'll be a happy camper.

[LightBing]

Freeza's plan in the manga was based on the assumption that Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan wouldn't contribute anything in the Tournament Of Power because of their strength. And that assumption was completely baseless, as while those three may be weak compared to rest of the team Universe 7 team, how they would have stacked up against the rest of the competitors from the other universes was completely undetermined as they never fought anyone from the other universes. So the assertion that Krillin and Tenshinhan wouldn't have be able to contributed anything to the Tournament Of Power is totally unfounded as we never saw Krillin do anything against anyone and Tenshinhan was put up against an opponent that we already know he couldn't beat. Freeza basically fucked himself over by reducing his chances of getting revived and increasing his chances of being erased by having two of his teammates needlessly eliminated. He could have earned Frost's trust to only to eventually betray him later without fucking himself and Universe 7 over. Freeza in the anime was WAY smarter with this approach.

Can't Freeza feel ki now? That would give him a superficial notion of the average power level going around on the tournament(not counting hidden ki, transformations, etc).
With this he would be able to determine how useful they could be - from a power perspective -, probably not very much taking into account most U9 members could compete with Piccolo.

He didn't reduced his chances he increased them. Kuririn and Tenshinhan wouldn't be able to single-handedly eliminate a Universe of SSJ level warriors while tiring Frost, allowing for his elimination. Frost who's probably in the top 20% of this tournament power-wise.
Their sacrifice was necessary to make Frost trusting him believable.

[Dbzk1999]

Eh, I’d say that what makes the anime version more impactful than the manga version was Roh begging Zeno not to do it, followed by Zeno erasing them so nonchalantly. That honestly invoked more sympathy from me, showed that Zeno doesn’t care if you’re begging, if you lose, you’re gone.

If you change roh with Bergamo and Zeno with piccolo-freeza , that same happened in the manga .
I agree anime was more impactful, don’t know if is because we already saw lot of universes disappear in the anime ,the music, the need of more begging-crying panels or just that manga didn’t offer that much of u9 information like the exhibition tournament

Maybe for you, but I consider there a difference between Bergamo more likely trying to trick piccolo to letting him live vs Roh knowing that he’s going to die but still trying to beg for mercy from Zeno. Mainly cause one happens before the elimination, while the other happens after, making the latter more genuine, imo.

[Lord Beerus]

Freeza's plan in the manga was based on the assumption that Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan wouldn't contribute anything in the Tournament Of Power because of their strength. And that assumption was completely baseless, as while those three may be weak compared to rest of the team Universe 7 team, how they would have stacked up against the rest of the competitors from the other universes was completely undetermined as they never fought anyone from the other universes. So the assertion that Krillin and Tenshinhan wouldn't have be able to contributed anything to the Tournament Of Power is totally unfounded as we never saw Krillin do anything against anyone and Tenshinhan was put up against an opponent that we already know he couldn't beat. Freeza basically fucked himself over by reducing his chances of getting revived and increasing his chances of being erased by having two of his teammates needlessly eliminated. He could have earned Frost's trust to only to eventually betray him later without fucking himself and Universe 7 over. Freeza in the anime was WAY smarter with this approach.

Can't Freeza feel ki now? That would give him a superficial notion of the average power level going around on the tournament(not counting hidden ki, transformations, etc).
With this he would be able to determine how useful they could be - from a power perspective -, probably not very much taking into account most U9 members could compete with Piccolo.

He didn't reduced his chances he increased them. Kuririn and Tenshinhan wouldn't be able to single-handedly eliminate a Universe of SSJ level warriors while tiring Frost, allowing for his elimination. Frost who's probably in the top 20% of this tournament power-wise.
Their sacrifice was necessary to make Frost trusting him believable.

Even if Freeza could feel the Ki for some of the fighters, judging some based on their suppressed strength is such a stupid thing to do. Hell, the last time Freeza did that himself, his father and some of his army got killed.

And nobody was expecting Krillin or Tenshinhan to eliminates universes single-handedly, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to eliminate some of the 70 other fighters. Not to mention that having the highest amount of fighters remaining for the longest period is an incredibly important aspect for the context of the Tournament Of Power. If Freeza wanted to earn Frost's trust, that perfectly fine. But there were far more practical ways to going about it.

[picc]

I'm more flabbergasted that the extra time spent with U9 in the anime made people MORE upset about their erasure. There were almost no redeeming qualities whatsoever about them -- even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And their fighters were either cocky assholes or cowards who actually jumped from the arena themselves.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

Fuck those guys. I felt nothing at all when got zeno'd, but the only emotion their anime erasure should have elicited is joy.

[TheMikado]

Wait ... you don't see how investing more time to build up the overall relation between two Universes and the emotion that comes from the one universe because of this whole situation has more emotional appeal?

In the context of being portrayed as sympathetic characters when they lost in the tournament, i.e. the whole point of this discussion? No, I really don't.

It's honestly no more complicated than how I described the situation in my previous post. In the anime, Universe 9 being the first to lose was a direct consequence of a reckless plan concocted by Universe 9 themselves. In the manga, they lost first because they were the victims of malevolent devices from equally malevolent characters that were entirely out of their control. When this finally culminates in the brief moment that their team and their entire universe is mercilessly wiped from existence -- combined with Bergamo's reaction in the manga just moments prior to that event -- I find myself far more inclined to feel sorry for them in the latter's context as opposed to the former's.

Taken as individual plot points I would agree, but when you look at the way it was executed... In the manga, there is a grand appeal to all universes and gods. We also see Universe 7 act like jack@sses and then we see how the Trios is basically one of the only hopes of their universe which is pretty sad. Yeah their plan sucked and they were basically doomed from the beginning and really stood no chance no matter what. For me I feel definitely have more pity for them as well as their apparent bond as brothers. The anime executes this better just by virtue of time spent and it has a more profound emotional impact. At this point I care more about the other universes in the anime than the manga, but that's how it should be at least for the protagonists. Universe 7 is seeing them for the first time and so are we. Ultimately the ending is going to make or break this but I'm not a fan of @sshole Jiren so far.

[picc]

Re: freeza

Feel like we're forgetting 1), that freeza is a sociopathic asshole, and at times they tend to make sub optimal decisions in the spirit of inflicting pain and suffering.

Ie. Attacking goku when he literally had half a body and enough bestowed power only to escape namek. What was rational about that? The guys a psycho, we should remember that.

And 2) freeza isnt actually as obsessed with resurrection as we think. Didnt he state he was going to attack the saiyans later in the tournament himself? Seems like he desires revenge far more than being revived, and he seems to believe he doesnt necessarily need U7 to win the tournament to get it.

[Dragono]

I don’t like to compare , but since everybody does .... freeza manga acts like the freeza that we knew from before ( at least in this 2 last chapters ) freeza anime is ambiguous, very inconsistent since the beginning , to the point that he donate energy to Goku just to say one of the most unexpected things he made .
Freeza mvp manga in this beginning

So what you say is that you like manga Freeza more because he is more one-dimensional and this way he is more recognizable for you? For an already so one-dimensional character as Freeza is I do not like that at all. I am glad they did a bit more with him in this arc. At least it was something.

It's never a bad thing for a villain characterization to evolve. I'm really happy with how they handled in the anime. He's still petty, vain and has a deep resentment towards Goku and the gang, but he isn't so blinded by his hatred for them that this willing to fuck the main cast over in a scenario where he could come back to life and possibly get any wish he wants.

Yes, yes it is. Cell is a perfect example. He became more boring with ever transformation. Freeza was suppose to be an unpredictable factor in this arc, who could screw U7 over at any time, BUT HE NEVER DID THAT, ONCE!!!

This arc has no villain and he was suppose to be that, to shake things up and make things less predictable, thats why I think Toriyama chose to brig him in. Blinded by hatred is exactly what Freeza would do in this situation, thats what makes him an iconic character, he doesn't give a fuck. He does what he wants because he's Lord Freeza.

[Kanassa]

even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And that's exactly why they were sympathetic.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

...And? The stakes of the Tournament are Universal Erasure, trying to put the cards in your favor no matter what isn't a bad thing.

[TKA]

Freeza's plan in the manga was based on the assumption that Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan wouldn't contribute anything in the Tournament Of Power because of their strength.

Yeah, fair enough.

And that assumption was completely baseless

Wait, what? You just described the base of the assumption!

as while those three may be weak compared to rest of the team Universe 7 team, how they would have stacked up against the rest of the competitors from the other universes

They wouldn't stack up well. If Frost can take them out so effortlessly and tank Tenshinhan's best move, then they're useless and not a significant loss. How is this hard to grasp? Frieza's plan is sound for Frieza.

And that's exactly why they were sympathetic.

...And? The stakes of the Tournament are Universal Erasure, trying to put the cards in your favor no matter what isn't a bad thing.

The point being made is they were villainous or underhanded characters in the anime, which made it harder for them to be sympathized with when they got erased. Now in the manga, they're just guys trying to survive, who are no more evil, or vile or underhanded than the universe 7 characters.

[picc]

even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And that's exactly why they were sympathetic.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

...And? The stakes of the Tournament are Universal Erasure, trying to put the cards in your favor no matter what isn't a bad thing.

So their universe being a cesspool and trying to cheat before the tournament makes you more sad they got eliminated?

Oooooook then. Guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Zephyr]

Shot in the dark:

Maybe Freeza didn't want his more powerful teammates getting distracted trying to defend the weaker ones? Thin the herd of likely stragglers early on, so the pack leaders can give their full attention, and such.