"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

BTW at the event that showed the Broly trailer. It was confirmed that DB Super is a "canonical sequel" to Toriyama's original Dragonball manga.

Yeah but we already knew that?

[TKA]

Caught up on the thread.

I'm seeing that most complaints are about the manga "wasting" characters it literally never promised to use. The anime promised that these characters would be important when it showed them gathering before the arc. It devoted time to setting them up, and then spent a year on pointless filler fights and shallow, one-note characterizations. The manga literally only promised to focus on Universe 7, 11 and 6. Those are the universes at play here. Everyone and everything else is second to that. This is basic story structure.

Like, really basic story structure. You might as well complain about Boba Fett never getting his own adventure in the original trilogy, or us never seeing what the eagles are up to in LotR. Characters who are not pivotal to the plot are secondary. Anything else just drags the story on and on.

[Marlowe89]

Alright, time for a more thorough overview.

What I liked:

All the major characters are played to their strengths. Caulifla is proud of her protege's potential, Kale underwent an actual obstacle with the drawbacks of her transformation, the Pride Troopers' exceptional teamwork is placed front and center, and Cabba particularly feels like he's come a long way from his role in his introductory arc. The characterization is concise and doesn't dwell on previously established dynamics; there's a cohesive flow to everyone's significance that doesn't feel incongruent or washed out.

On that note, I still think all these criticisms aimed at the minor characters (i.e. "characters" not in Universes 6, 7, and 11) not receiving any amount of attention or development chiefly stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of their roles in the story. They're background fighters. You're not supposed to feel invested in them. They're clearly designed to contribute to the atmosphere of a chaotic tournament, which is obviously going to involve some heavy sidelining. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to see those characters get their fluff moments, and that's what the anime's for, but fluff should never feel mandatory. The manga has an advantage over the anime when it comes to feeling like a focused narrative, I think.

Very thrilled to know that the structure is back to feeling like a proper battle royale. After the previous chapter, I wasn't entirely sure if Toyotaro was going to continue in that direction; here he takes his usual approach, flips it on its head, and completely knocks it out of the park. Kale is an absolute monster, and her freakish power helps to establish just how dire the situation can get when every team has to fend for themselves but none of them are actually prepared for the opposition. It's unnerving, it's tense, it's dramatic but not overly so. It's everything I expected from the tournament going in.

As much as I dislike fusion for feeling like blatant fanservice, it can be done well if there's an interesting spin on the idea. I've said this before. Here it wasn't planned by anyone involved; it was a last-minute ploy from Champa to save Kale from elimination/death, stop her from rampaging, and combine her massive strength with Caulifla's fighting prowess to create a trump card for Universe 6. I don't even like Kefla as a character, but the fact that Toyotaro continues to introduce these concepts in unexpected ways helps to story feel like a refreshing divergence from the same tropes exhausted previously in the series.

What I didn't like:

Still not sold on the idea of Goku fighting Jiren in the background. I can't say much more about it that I haven't already, but it is what it is. I can't wait to see them actually go at it during the climax, but I don't like how Toyotaro has built up to that conflict.

The Namekians. You bet I'm going there. They're a part of Universe 6, and there's a certain intrigue about seeing more members of Piccolo's race appear in a new story arc, so I think it's perfectly fair to expect more than what they had to offer here. I know the idea was to show how Kale's berserker mentality didn't discriminate her victims based on affiliation, but that was already established with Magetta. It's hardly a big deal, but I prefer the way that the anime handled it.

Overall:

Another fantastic chapter, and the pros outweigh the cons heavily. The character investment is distributed exactly where it should be.

[Miracles]

Why does that even matter?

Cause it uses the Super manga as that canon sequel to Toriyama's original and many here didn't believe Super itself was actually canon.

Yeah but we already knew that?

Some didn't. Few denied it.

Do you happen to have an image of that "confirmation"?

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[Doctor.]

Caught up on the thread.

I'm seeing that most complaints are about the manga "wasting" characters it literally never promised to use. The anime promised that these characters would be important when it showed them gathering before the arc. It devoted time to setting them up, and then spent a year on pointless filler fights and shallow, one-note characterizations. The manga literally only promised to focus on Universe 7, 11 and 6. Those are the universes at play here. Everyone and everything else is second to that. This is basic story structure.

Like, really basic story structure. You might as well complain about Boba Fett never getting his own adventure in the original trilogy, or us never seeing what the eagles are up to in LotR. Characters who are not pivotal to the plot are secondary. Anything else just drags the story on and on.

It's disappointing. It narrows the scope of the arc tremendously, even more than the Tournament of Power as a concept already did with the Dragon Ball multiverse.

And it's disingenuous to say we shouldn't expect other characters besides the ones focused on in the pre-tournament chapters. Frost and Hit had no screen-time and they had roles, not only because they were relevant, named characters in the previous arc, but also because they provided the potential for interesting dynamics with Freeza and Jiren respectively, and it would be a waste not to capitalize on that; just like it's a waste that, for example, the Namekians of universe 6 (one of those universes you claim Toyotaro is focusing on) did nothing at all. Roshi has also lasted so long in spite of not getting the same amount of attention as literally everybody else remaining in universe 7, so matters aren't as clear cut as you say.

Furthermore, even if you treat everyone as fodder, there's still creativity to give them their own flair through their abilities and personality.

This is a battle royal as you keep reminding us over and over again. Unexpected threats that weren't foreseen are a must, or else the tournament is boring. In-universe, Kale and Kefla fulfill that role. For the audience, they don't, given their extensive screentime before the tournament.

Cause it uses the Super manga as that canon sequel to Toriyama's original and many here didn't believe Super itself was actually canon.

I mean why does it matter if it's canon or not?

It's unnerving, it's tense, it's dramatic but not overly so.

How is it tense if we don't care about any of these characters? You'd have a point if anyone in universe 7 got knocked off, but that wasn't the case.

[Miracles]

I mean why does it matter if it's canon or not?

People just want to know what officially is and isn't DB story. Nothing big.

[OLKv3]

I had problems with the 1st half and the blatant Broly ad, but i liked the 2nd half of the chapter where it turned into a desperate struggle to save Kale and their universe

[Bergamo]

Caught up on the thread.

I'm seeing that most complaints are about the manga "wasting" characters it literally never promised to use. The anime promised that these characters would be important when it showed them gathering before the arc. It devoted time to setting them up, and then spent a year on pointless filler fights and shallow, one-note characterizations. The manga literally only promised to focus on Universe 7, 11 and 6. Those are the universes at play here. Everyone and everything else is second to that. This is basic story structure.

Like, really basic story structure. You might as well complain about Boba Fett never getting his own adventure in the original trilogy, or us never seeing what the eagles are up to in LotR. Characters who are not pivotal to the plot are secondary. Anything else just drags the story on and on.

It's disappointing. It narrows the scope of the arc tremendously, even more than the Tournament of Power as a concept already did with the Dragon Ball multiverse.

And it's disingenuous to say we shouldn't expect other characters besides the ones focused on in the pre-tournament chapters. Frost and Hit had no screen-time and they had roles, not only because they were relevant, named characters in the previous arc, but also because they provided the potential for interesting dynamics with Freeza and Jiren respectively, and it would be a waste not to capitalize on that; just like it's a waste that, for example, the Namekians of universe 6 (one of those universes you claim Toyotaro is focusing on) did nothing at all. Roshi has also lasted so long in spite of not getting the same amount of attention as literally everybody else remaining in universe 7, so matters aren't as clear cut as you say.

Furthermore, even if you treat everyone as fodder, there's still creativity to give them their own flair through their abilities and personality.

This is a battle royal as you keep reminding us over and over again. Unexpected threats that weren't foreseen are a must, or else the tournament is boring. In-universe, Kale and Kefla fulfill that role. For the audience, they don't, given their extensive screentime before the tournament.

Cause it uses the Super manga as that canon sequel to Toriyama's original and many here didn't believe Super itself was actually canon.

I mean why does it matter if it's canon or not?

It's unnerving, it's tense, it's dramatic but not overly so.

How is it tense if we don't care about any of these characters? You'd have a point if anyone in universe 7 got knocked off, but that wasn't the case.

The characters in the ToP were basically there to instill a certain feel. We only really care about the Trio-de-Dangers, but the other members of u9 all look rugged, so they contribute to the hopeless universe feel. They are like background characters who are there so that the set doesn't feel empty. Besides, just because I don't care who Anilaza is doesn't mean that it doesn't look cool when she topples a guy the size of the arena.

[Doctor.]

The characters in the ToP were basically there to instill a certain feel. We only really care about the Trio-de-Dangers, but the other members of u9 all look rugged, so they contribute to the hopeless universe feel. They are like background characters who are there so that the set doesn't feel empty. Besides, just because I don't care who Anilaza is doesn't mean that it doesn't look cool when she topples a guy the size of the arena.

I mean, you say that, but that's not really how it works. Outside of universe 9 and 3, which I think Toriyama did a good job of designing as representatives of their universes, none of the other universes share any kind of thematic or design consistency between them. And without any personality to tie the characters all together (like the anime did with the U2 fighters for example, though I also think it was poorly executed), then they're just random designs thrown in the middle of the tournament stage to be knocked out. There's no "feel" there outside of one or two fighters that happen to have speaking lines by chance.

And you'll say "but that's the point, they're meant to be fodder" and I'll just reply that if you're content with that, then that's fine, but that drastically narrows the scope of the arc. This is a multiversal tournament where survival is on line and you're treating the people who are representing their homeland and fighting to protect their loved ones as nothing more than background decoration. The anime, at least, had a poignant and relatively nuanced scene when Obuni was knocked off. I know I keep referring to the anime even though I hate its rendition of the Tournament of Power arc, but that's because I feel like they at least touched on the interesting themes and implications this kind of setting brings forth (even if they turned a blind eye to them and buried whatever sparkles of genius were there), while the manga doesn't even do that much.

It's a fun spectacle with some cool fights and that's fine when you already know how this arc ends, that they're all gonna survive regardless. But this is an interesting setting with fantastic implications not only for the world and the new characters being introduced, but for our characters as well, and it's all being ignored in favor of mindless, stupid action. I don't care about action if the context surrounding it isn't investing. I care about action when it gets me invested first. This is no different than buying two action figures and having them fight each-other.

[TKA]

It's disappointing. It narrows the scope of the arc tremendously, even more than the Tournament of Power as a concept already did with the Dragon Ball multiverse.

Of course it narrows the focus. That's the point. It is literally impossible to tell a story without focusing on a core group of characters. Otherwise, you're not telling a story; you're just showing things happening. That can be done well, but it's not gonna be done well in Dragonball at all.

And it's disingenuous to say we shouldn't expect other characters besides the ones focused on in the pre-tournament chapters. Frost and Hit had no screen-time and they had roles

It isn't disingenuous at all. Frost and Hit were key players in the original tournament arc. Do you see Toyotaro focusing on Botamo, Magetta or the two namekians? No, because they're largely unimportant characters that the manga never devoted any time to. Hit and Frost are cut from a different cloth.

What's disingenuous is to focus so much on the specificity of my words while ignoring the meaning. It's not about *just* the pre-tournament chapters. It's about narrative importance. Toyotaro devoted a chapter to Kale, Caulifla and Cabba. He devoted time to the pride troopers, with Toppo and Jiren getting top billing. He devoted time to U7, of course.

He did not devote time to the other universes, because, and say it with me: they don't matter. From what I saw of the anime, they didn't matter there either. All they did was waste time. It's fluff. Irrelevant, pointless, soulless fluff.

for example, the Namekians of universe 6 (one of those universes you claim Toyotaro is focusing on) did nothing at all.

Bruh, I don't even know those Namekians' names. And that's fine because the manga never devoted any time to them.

I find these two funny because a friend of mine who dislikes dragonball watched the anime tournament of power, and he was flabbergasted when these two Namekians showed up in the 11th hour because he didn't remember they were part of U6's team.

But I digress.

Roshi has also lasted so long in spite of not getting the same amount of attention as literally everybody else remaining in universe 7, so matters aren't as clear cut as you say.

"Lasting long" means absolutely nothing if you're not focused on. That's just a stupid stat with no narrative value to it. Frost was among the first people eliminated, yet he had a bigger impact on the arc than many characters who are still around. He also helped establish Frieza's character in this tournament—what it's going to be going forward.

I don't know why Roshi is still around, but he'll probably do something important later.

Furthermore, even if you treat everyone as fodder, there's still creativity to give them their own flair through their abilities and personality.

Not at the cost of pacing.

Ribrianne and her team got their chance to "shine", invisible guys did things as well, and in the initial chapters we got the dogmen fighting. This is a battle royal. Not one on one fights. Some characters are gonna get tossed out and blindsided. That's the very premise of the arc. You don't like it, blame the arc's structure, not Toyotaro for playing by the rules that structure dictates.

[Marlowe89]

How is it tense if we don't care about any of these characters? You'd have a point if anyone in universe 7 got knocked off, but that wasn't the case.

It's tense because it establishes her as a huge threat, to the point that even giant hulking trump card fusions like Anilaza get taken out in a single blow. I care about Universe 6 because they're also major players; Kale presented her own team with a significant obstacle, just as Vados predicted in the previous chapter.

I don't think you're entirely off-base -- I would have liked to see Universe 7 suffer the consequences like everyone else, which comes across as a bit of a missed opportunity. It's nothing major though.

[Bergamo]

The characters in the ToP were basically there to instill a certain feel. We only really care about the Trio-de-Dangers, but the other members of u9 all look rugged, so they contribute to the hopeless universe feel. They are like background characters who are there so that the set doesn't feel empty. Besides, just because I don't care who Anilaza is doesn't mean that it doesn't look cool when she topples a guy the size of the arena.

I mean, you say that, but that's not really how it works. Outside of universe 9 and 3, which I think Toriyama did a good job of designing as representatives of their universes, none of the other universes share any kind of thematic or design consistency between them. And without any personality to tie the characters all together (like the anime did with the U2 fighters for example, though I also think it was poorly executed), then they're just random designs thrown in the middle of the tournament stage to be knocked out. There's no "feel" there outside of one or two fighters that happen to have speaking lines by chance.

And you'll say "but that's the point, they're meant to be fodder" and I'll just reply that if you're content with that, then that's fine, but that drastically narrows the scope of the arc. This is a multiversal tournament where survival is on line and you're treating the people who are representing their homeland and fighting to protect their loved ones as nothing more than background decoration. The anime, at least, had a poignant and relatively nuanced scene when Obuni was knocked off. I know I keep referring to the anime even though I hate its rendition of the Tournament of Power arc, but that's because I feel like they at least touched on the interesting themes and implications this kind of setting brings forth (even if they turned a blind eye to them and buried whatever sparkles of genius were there), while the manga doesn't even do that much.

It's a fun spectacle with some cool fights and that's fine when you already know how this arc ends, that they're all gonna survive regardless. But this is an interesting setting with fantastic implications not only for the world and the new characters being introduced, but for our characters as well, and it's all being ignored in favor of mindless, stupid action. I don't care about action if the context surrounding it isn't investing. I care about action when it gets me invested first. This is no different than buying two action figures and having them fight each-other.

Personally I can recognize which universe a fighter is from based on their appearance, and I can do this with decent accuracy. I do really like the designs of each universe as a collective. I don't think the pacing is perfect, but I also want the arc to reach the climax as soon as possible. I will admit that the monthly format and the fact that I've already seen parts of the anime do contribute to my mindset.

[Doctor.]

you're just showing things happening.

That's ironic because that's literally what's happening right now. There's no story being told. The implications of the setting are being ignored in favor of mindless action.

Frost and Hit were key players in the original tournament arc. Do you see Toyotaro focusing on Botamo, Magetta or the two namekians? No, because they're largely unimportant characters that the manga never devoted any time to. Hit and Frost are cut from a different cloth.

Yes, it is disingenuous, just like it is disingenuous to claim Botamo and Magetta were not key players in the original tournament arc. They both had their own fight. They both had their own chapter. You're saying they don't matter because Toyotaro threw them to the trash in this arc.

Toyotaro devoted a chapter to Kale, Caulifla and Cabba. He devoted time to the pride troopers, with Toppo and Jiren getting top billing. He devoted time to U7, of course.

And he devoted no time to the previous tournament fighters and yet Hit and Frost still had their own chapter in this tournament, while Magetta and Botamo got nothing.

Irrelevant, pointless, soulless fluff.

It's "irrelevant" and "pointless" because they were knocked out in one blow. If these characters had a personality or abilities that complemented the character they were fighting, if these characters complemented any theme the arc is pushing or if these characters had interesting dialogue that played on the implications of the setting, you'd be singing a different tune. These characters do nothing because Toyotaro does nothing with them. This is circular reasoning.

Bruh, I don't even know those Namekians' names.

They're characters from the same race as one of the other characters from the main cast. A race that, when seen in the original series, served as the focal point. You'd think they'd have some kind of importance in the story, at least have some kind of dynamic with Piccolo, but they don't. They're background fodder. You're just proving my point.

You don't like it, blame the arc's structure, not Toyotaro for playing by the rules that structure dictates.

I absolutely blame Toyotaro for not being creative enough to adhere to the arc's fast pacing while making the best out of every character. His lack of creativity is to blame, not the arc's structure.

[Grimlock]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Thank you. It certainly is a weird question and probably there is not but I will ask nontheless: is there a Japanese version of that mural too?

So we have yet another occasion where unfortunately this "canon" concept appears but why is it always in America? I know Chris Sabat also tendes to say out there "oh that was not canonical; this is canonical" (and he once again said it again in an interview for IGN about Dragon Ball Super's Movie 1). But why we don't have such statements in Japanese?

Oh just to be clear: the only ones that can say what is canonical and what is not are Shueisha, Toei and Toriyama, so even if there isn't a Japanese version of that mural, it would be nice to know if either of those ones I mentioned is the responsible for that mural.

[Bullza]

Just dropping in to say that I read the latest chapter good stuff but these past few chapters to me have made it very clear I much prefer the anime version.

The manga version just doesn't have the same kind of intensity and doesn't feel the same, might be because it doesn't jump around as much. It also feels rushed in comparison.

Funnily enough I though the anime was originally going to have this kind of pace but then it didn't but was probably better off for it.

Characters that had some pretty good fights and moments like the Namekians in the anime where just pointless in the manga.

[Miracles]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Thank you. It certainly is a weird question and probably there is not but I will ask nontheless: is there a Japanese version of that mural too?

So we have yet another occasion where unfortunately this "canon" concept appears but why is it always in America? I know Chris Sabat also tendes to say out there "oh that was not canonical; this is canonical" (and he once again said it again in an interview for IGN about Dragon Ball Super's Movie 1). But why we don't have such statements in Japanese?

Oh just to be clear: the only ones that can say what is canonical and what is not are Shueisha, Toei and Toriyama, so even if there isn't a Japanese version of that mural, it would be nice to know if either of those ones I mentioned is the responsible for that mural.

It has Shueisha's stamp at the bottom of the mural.

[Bergamo]

I didn't care about the first half of the tournament in the anime, and I don't care about it in the manga. I like the manga more due to the fact that it's shorter and my opinion that it's more cohesive and digestible. I do think that the anime had better moments than the manga. The manga would be better if it wasn't monthly, and the anime would be better if the animators weren't constantly cutting corners. I think this succinctly summarizes my thoughts on this arc.

[JazzMazz]

Well, at least we're going to the main part of the tournament now. I liked Kale vs Universe 11, and the entire universe 6 Saiyan subplot about fusion, thought that was well done. Those are positives.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Doctor of all people, but this chapter perfectly demonstrated Toyo's completely inability to even try to be remotely creative with any of the side characters at all. If you don't serve some narrative in the story, your fodder to be eliminated without second thought. I may criticize the anime for too heavily exploring characters while not doing anything interesting with them, but at least some of the characters ended up being somewhat interesting, and having some solid fights that validated them being in the TOP. None of the figthers from any of the other universes besides universes 6,7 and 11, served any real narrative purpose, or even contributed to creating any form of atmosphere in the manga, and the reason for that is pure uncreativity. As a result, this version of the TOP completely and abysmally fails to resemble anything close to a battle royale, due to the mangaka's unwillingness to even give a surface level of characterization to anyone beyond the cast that are relevant to the story.

Again, after that horrible bit of Kale eliminated all the fighters because plot, the chapter becomes somewhat enjoyable. I liked the universe 6 Saiyan subplot and plan, it felt genuinely creative beyond just plain fighting. There was an objective, there goal was achieve that objective in the fight. Thats interesting. Wish we saw more of that.

[precita]

The manga also treats U7 like crap. Outside of Goku/Vegeta, Freeza and 17, nobody has a reason to be there.

Krillin and Tien literally do nothing. 18 and Piccolo have extremely brief fights before going down. Gohan and Roshi have also literally done nothing so far, and Gohan will probably easily lose to Kefla next issue. I have no idea what the hell Roshi is still doing here, at least in the anime they gave him some weaker characters to take out. Who the hell is Roshi supposed to beat in the manga to justify his presence here?

[prince212]

Talking about Jiren

When he says that this is unnecessary, it seemed to me that he tried to be cold, to seem like he does not care about them, even if he cares

Next panel after he said unnecessary, those two were beaten by kefla who threw them on Jirens feet , so my interpretation is that it was too late to save them ... but yes , he seems to not care .
Who knows if they translate that properly.....

Still not sold on the idea of Goku fighting Jiren in the background. I can't say much more about it that I haven't already, but it is what it is. I can't wait to see them actually go at it during the climax, but I don't like how Toyotaro has built up to that conflict.

Correct me if I am wrong but last time we saw Jiren he spread the battle with goku because of the invisible fighter.. then we saw goku facing kale for a bit and the next time we see this guys together is in this chapter in the “unnecessary “moment , so I don’t interpreted that they are fighting in he background like vegeta and Toppo are doing , they just met again after the invisible guy moment...
But I agree with you about not liking the build up of their conflict .