"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[IM21]

I dont expect him to be on the level of "prime toriyama", but he could try to be more close to his quality, he likes to do so many "homages" he could also try to copy the composition part and not just character poses, even more after toriyama himself told him what he needed to do.

I do agree that there are too many homages. I mean, some do look cool, but he should do less. I don't really have problems with the manga panels which even Toriyama said he likes and it was one of the reasons he chose Toyo. There is too much text tho and I miss those full page iconic pictures like the Goku SSJ on namek or Gohan going SSJ2.

[OhHiRenan]

I mean, art-wise Toyotaro is better than Buu-saga Toriyama, IMO.

I'm prepared for the incoming replies telling me I'm wrong, but Buu-saga Toriyama wasn't polished at all.

It’s not like Boo arc Toriyama is unpolished or unrefined. His paneling and compositions were as great as they’ve ever been. I don’t know where this notion of Boo arc Toriyama somehow being worse at his job came from. Fights aren’t nearly as long as they were prior, but the art is still quite strong.

[Rakurai]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

"Factually badly composed"

And since when was there rigid policies on how manga should be drawn and composed?

I agree Toyo adds in unnecessary reaction shots, and has been doing so more lately than usual, but aside from that his panel composition has been fine for the most part for a mangaka.

Plus I actually like the exposition that he gives with the additional panels than on average.

[TKA]

Goku didn't dodge her at all, she threw a punch at him which he easily blocked, but when she started to attack him again, her power increase was clearly pushing him to the point she overwhelmed him, not saying this means she'd ultimately win, just that their brief scuffle got in her favor pretty quick

He blocked all her attacks. That's what I meant. Then eventually she got a shot through. And that entire time while he was blocking he was trying to figure out what the deal was with her. When she finally got the hit through was when he noticed her power was still rising, and getting distracted by that detail.

But I digress. I really don't care about power level discussions since they ignore so much about storytelling just to focus on numbers.

I can never understand how people can consider a franchise as "bad" to be fact. Even majority opinion doesn't make it fact.

I, for one, think we as a culture can determine that at least Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are bad stories.

[prince212]

I agree Toyo adds in unnecessary reaction shots, and has been doing so more lately than usual, but aside from that his panel composition has been fine for the most part for a mangaka.

That’s my main concern, half of the abundant kuririn comments-reactions are unnecessary and totally pace-breakers of the fights .
I.m.o .Panel composition is simply brilliant in the last chapter if we remove those 4-5 pages of unnecessary comments .
7 panels per page is the maximum I can’t take to don’t feel “ over paneled “ , more if all contain text . Toyo sometimes is going over 7 . I don’t like it .
Dbs is not a masterpiece at all , but even the masterpiece DB by toriyama sometimes went to 7+ panels per page .
Ah and like some said , I miss some full page panel once in a while .
Like I said , this manga by toyotaro is not a masterpiece, but it’s not bad at all if you consider how handcuffed it is the artist who is drawing it , He should imitate And create without overdoing it and he’s in a situation where making a balance between those two it’s not easy at all .

[Rakurai]

I, for one, think we as a culture can determine that at least Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are bad stories.

I can't comment on the latter since I've never read it. As for Twilight, I wouldn't say it is bad overall. The lore is interesting and the conflicts compelling. The romance however is too unrealistic and distasteful for me.

That’s my main concern, half of the abundant kuririn comments-reactions are unnecessary and totally pace-breakers of the fights .
I.m.o .Panel composition is simply brilliant in the last chapter if we remove those 4-5 pages of unnecessary comments .
7 panels per page is the maximum I can’t take to don’t feel “ over paneled “ , more if all contain text . Toyo sometimes is going over 7 . I don’t like it .
Dbs is not a masterpiece at all , but even the masterpiece DB by toriyama sometimes went to 7+ panels per page .
Ah and like some said , I miss some full page panel once in a while .
Like I said , this manga by toyotaro is not a masterpiece, but it’s not bad at all if you consider how handcuffed it is the artist who is drawing it , He should imitate And create without overdoing it and he’s in a situation where making a balance between those two it’s not easy at all .

I get the feeling that Toyo was trying to recreate the sense we got from the anime with the constant comments and cuebacks from the peanut gallery. Which is a shame because I do agree that it was annoying.

I honestly think Toyo needs to stop using the original manga as reference. If DB as a story cannot be allowed to have a conclusion (and believe me I wish the story could've just ended with GT, whose ending I thought was perfect), then at least give it a new take or fresh perspective. I think it's more clever for Toyo to use inspiration from video games because they actually have cool sequences and attacks to adapt and play around with.

[supersaiyanZero]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

You can say the same exact thing about the Super anime compared to its predecessors. It's an objectively poorly run show, the writing is embarrassingly bad, etc. These are all facts. The enjoyment part is up to you.

[supersaiyanZero]

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

You can say the same exact thing about the Super anime compared to its predecessors. It's an objectively poorly run show, the writing is embarrassingly bad, etc. These are all facts. The enjoyment part is up to you. If you enjoy bottom of the barrel fan service, then hey go for it.

Edit: double post

[Shaddy]

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

[supersaiyanZero]

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

I think it's pathetic that when discussing a medium of art that requires a healthy dose of pre-production its just an "opinion" that the quality of a show has suffered due to an incredibly rushed schedule

I'm also not in the camp of "hey man, it's just like, your opinion" when there is a vast body of work in the genre to be compared against. When it comes to the DB Super anime it's not nuances anyone is pointing out and arguing over, it's glaring issues that are objectively there for anyone to see.

There is a difference between the level of enjoyment that is subjectively held by an audience and the bar set by decades of work in a genre when it comes to the fundamentals of story structure, dialogue, character development, etc. You could argue that the team behind Super worked miracles with the material and time they were given, but they doesn't excuse the show as a whole. Some food for thought for the next time you start spouting some holier-than-thou nonsense.

[Lukmendes]

The worst part about “power scaling” discussions are that, more often than not, weaker characters damaging stronger character simply cannot be accepted. Kuririn and Gohan both manage to hurt Freeza, someone far stronger than them, by fighting intelligently or gaining a brief upper hand in the Namek arc.

It’s totally possible for Kale to overwhelm Goku momentarily without it being “inconsistent power scaling” or other such nonsense.

Freeza thing, Krillin managed to damage Freeza because his destructo disc ignores the power levels rule, he was clever enough to try to keep the distance though, and Gohan didn't fight intelligently at all, Vegeta very specificaly points out that his power got a sudden increase for being angry and that's why he managed to do anything against Freeza, and even so, both times he did attack Freeza, he just attacked like a simple brute and it didn't do anything significant.

I get the feeling that Toyo was trying to recreate the sense we got from the anime with the constant comments and cuebacks from the peanut gallery. Which is a shame because I do agree that it was annoying.

Yeah, that seems to be his intent, pretty dumb if so since characters tend to make useless comments and just get in the way of the fights...

[TKA]

I think it's pathetic that when discussing a medium of art that requires a healthy dose of pre-production its just an "opinion" that the quality of a show has suffered due to an incredibly rushed schedule

I'm also not in the camp of "hey man, it's just like, your opinion" when there is a vast body of work in the genre to be compared against. When it comes to the DB Super anime it's not nuances anyone is pointing out and arguing over, it's glaring issues that are objectively there for anyone to see.

I agree that the DB Super anime's production cycle is abysmal due to poor planning, but not because of any argument you made. To be honest, you didn't make an argument at all. You didn't explain why the production cycle is bad—you merely used the word "objectively" a lot. For something so well-documented, I think you should point to examples of staff complaining about the production timeline (which did happen), Toriyama's statements (which do exist), and make comparisons between DB Super's production versus other anime (which is well-documented).

If you want a less toxic thread, you gotta avoid the pitfalls of thought you yourself pointed out earlier.

[alakazam^]

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

I think it's pathetic that when discussing a medium of art that requires a healthy dose of pre-production its just an "opinion" that the quality of a show has suffered due to an incredibly rushed schedule

I'm also not in the camp of "hey man, it's just like, your opinion" when there is a vast body of work in the genre to be compared against. When it comes to the DB Super anime it's not nuances anyone is pointing out and arguing over, it's glaring issues that are objectively there for anyone to see.

There is a difference between the level of enjoyment that is subjectively held by an audience and the bar set by decades of work in a genre when it comes to the fundamentals of story structure, dialogue, character development, etc. You could argue that the team behind Super worked miracles with the material and time they were given, but they doesn't excuse the show as a whole. Some food for thought for the next time you start spouting some holier-than-thou nonsense.

None of that changes the fact (lol) that you can't say something is factually good or bad. Nothing is inherently that way. If you need a comparison to call a product good or bad then that tells you it isn't neither on its own.

Yes, it's always an opinion, which is why the obsession of some people over mentioning the anime in this thread is very annoying. What they accomplish, though, is telling everyone that the manga they seemingly praise can't stand on its two legs because the focus is always the anime.

[Bergamo]

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

I think it's pathetic that when discussing a medium of art that requires a healthy dose of pre-production its just an "opinion" that the quality of a show has suffered due to an incredibly rushed schedule

I'm also not in the camp of "hey man, it's just like, your opinion" when there is a vast body of work in the genre to be compared against. When it comes to the DB Super anime it's not nuances anyone is pointing out and arguing over, it's glaring issues that are objectively there for anyone to see.

There is a difference between the level of enjoyment that is subjectively held by an audience and the bar set by decades of work in a genre when it comes to the fundamentals of story structure, dialogue, character development, etc. You could argue that the team behind Super worked miracles with the material and time they were given, but they doesn't excuse the show as a whole. Some food for thought for the next time you start spouting some holier-than-thou nonsense.

None of that changes the fact (lol) that you can't say something is factually good or bad. Nothing is inherently that way. If you need a comparison to call a product good or bad then that tells you it isn't neither on its own.

Yes, it's always an opinion, which is why the obsession of some people over mentioning the anime in this thread is very annoying. What they accomplish, though, is telling everyone that the manga they seemingly praise can't stand on its two legs because the focus is always the anime.

When there are 2 versions of the same story it's only natural that they will be compared. Saying, "Haha, you compared the manga to the anime, that means the manga is bad," is really meaningless. Also, other posters post things in unrelated threads like,"I'd give super an 8/10... Unless you're talking about the manga, that trash is a 0/10," does that make the Super Anime automatically bad.

Your argument is more of a gotcha rather that a coherent point.

[alakazam^]

When there are 2 versions of the same story it's only natural that they will be compared. Saying, "Haha, you compared the manga to the anime, that means the manga is bad," is really meaningless. Also, other posters post things in unrelated threads like,"I'd give super an 8/10... Unless you're talking about the manga, that trash is a 0/10," does that make the Super Anime automatically bad.

Your argument is more of a gotcha rather that a coherent point.

Yes, it's natural to compare them but that's not what this thread is about, especially not for nonsense jabs like "Oh, I liked this chapter, Toyotarou did x and y and I think it worked. Unlike the horrible anime". This doesn't tell me this person is actually interested in discussing the manga.

I don't remember ever reading those types of comments but no, they wouldn't give the impression the anime couldn't stand on its two legs because its status is being the main product. Unless that thread was specifically about the anime, but I fail to see why would anyone talk about the manga in a thread like that.

It's pretty coherent but maybe you didn't understand it. I also have no idea what kind of English "a gotcha" is so we're even.

[kemuri07]

When there are 2 versions of the same story it's only natural that they will be compared. Saying, "Haha, you compared the manga to the anime, that means the manga is bad," is really meaningless. Also, other posters post things in unrelated threads like,"I'd give super an 8/10... Unless you're talking about the manga, that trash is a 0/10," does that make the Super Anime automatically bad.

Your argument is more of a gotcha rather that a coherent point.

Yes, it's natural to compare them but that's not what this thread is about, especially not for nonsense jabs like "Oh, I liked this chapter, Toyotarou did x and y and I think it worked. Unlike the horrible anime". This doesn't tell me this person is actually interested in discussing the manga.

I don't remember ever reading those types of comments but no, they wouldn't give the impression the anime couldn't stand on its two legs because its status is being the main product. Unless that thread was specifically about the anime, but I fail to see why would anyone talk about the manga in a thread like that.

It's pretty coherent but maybe you didn't understand it. I also have no idea what kind of English "a gotcha" is so we're even.

But it makes perfect sense since:

A. The Super Manga was written around the same time as the anime
B. most people (if not all) have seen both interpretations and whether they want to or not, will be comparing them.

This is how subjective opinions work. Nothing exists in its own box, because you form your own opinion based on prior experience. That's how you build taste. And in the case of the Super manga, because it came out after the anime did and because it's relatively the same story, it's nearly impossible to not draw comparisons between both the manga and the anime. So yes, I can and will routinely draw comparisons to the anime detailing why this scene in the manga is better written than the anime.

Because the anime sucks.

So either make an argument on why people are wrong about the anime, or stop whining. It just seems like there's a bunch of people who cannot handle the idea of someone having a negative opinion about the thing they like, so they get incredibly defensive about this.

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

Well yeah. Because people get so upset at the prospect of someone not liking the anime or video game or movie they like, because they take it as an implied smear at themselves. So they hide behind "objectivity" in order to dismiss any criticism so they don't get their feelings hurt. That's all it is.

[Shineman]

Is this some people's first day on the internet? Nothing here is "objective facts". No statement on quality is ever going to be "factual". There is no such thing as unbiased objective criticism. It's all opinions, it's always been opinions, opinions are all it's ever going to be. Any statement otherwise is a hollow, obstinate excuse to deride and discredit faceless internet people who don't value the same things as you in a children's comic book. It's pathetic.

I propose that statements like these needs to drill into people’s heads throughout this thread, future animated discussion threads (assuming Dragon Ball makes another return); the concept of subjectivity and objectivity practically lost meaning in the same vein as fan-service and, ahem, “basic-writing”, whatever that last one means.

Of course, this is a joke, but I highly, highly agreed with this sentiment. Objectivity cannot function in a field where you can have so many different opinions and interpretations of the said works. One person thinking one medium is bad; another one thinks it is one of the greatest thing in the world. As you said, it is a dishonest, doleful attempt to discredit, ridicule, shut down, and reduced one’s personal thoughts on a work. As if someone posted a criticism on the anime (remember the constant anime threads that had to be shut down because people jumped into the throat before even watching it in subs) or the manga, people gets extremely defensive—it’s a children cartoon for goodness sake. Not saying that anyone should not care about the things they like nor discuss them in length, but it should not personally affect one’s livelihood.

None of that changes the fact (lol) that you can't say something is factually good or bad. Nothing is inherently that way. If you need a comparison to call a product good or bad then that tells you it isn't neither on its own.

Yes, it's always an opinion, which is why the obsession of some people over mentioning the anime in this thread is very annoying. What they accomplish, though, is telling everyone that the manga they seemingly praise can't stand on its two legs because the focus is always the anime.

I have to agree with this sentiment; a work should not consider “good” or “bad” based solely on comparisons. It is interesting to see the differences between the two works, but the manga is fundamental doing its own thing (at least, that is the jest of what I am getting out of this thread).

Because since all you make are declarative statements and never actually defend the points you push forward, I would be quite happy if you are truly done with the manga as you say.

A moderator already came in here to give everyone a warning to cool heads, but these types of comment does nothing to contribute to the discussion at hand. If the comment in question does nothing because he “makes declarative statements”, then report it and move on. Otherwise, do not bother dropping these low-hanging statements and keep your thoughts to yourself; it does not look good.

As you said yourself throughout this thread, be a better person and, if you want a less toxic thread, you gotta avoid the pitfalls of thought you yourself pointed out earlier.

If they are starting the broly arc next month, then the ending for top is probably going to be extremely rushed, a common theme with manga.

I am not in the camp that the manga is rushed; I'm more inclined to think that Toyotaro is limited to set a number of chapters. Due to this (again, this is all speculation), there are a lot of things that Toyotaro had gutted in favor of things to get the important stuff out there (even if the things he showed doesn’t need to be, but that’s a different topic altogether). If Toyotaro had enough time to work on the arc, most likely we would see more content than shown in this manga. Of course, this does not excuse the poor execution and presentation that Toyotaro chosen to showcase this arc (pro-tip, this is just an opinion), but it is something to think about.

Then again, I'm nothing more than disgusting apologist trash, so I'm not worth talking to and nothing I say has any value...

Yeah, how about we cut this clear over-exaggeration out, shall we? Anyone can post their thoughts and should post their thoughts without being demonized for their interests (this is for both sides of the idle), but let us not create this fantasy that “the other side” (whoever they are…) are calling the others “disgusting”. It is clearly is not the case (do note, what the user said in question about “manga apologist”, was dumb and should be an example of what not to do in a healthy discussion).

--------------

So anyways, I don't have much comment to say about this recent chapter, other than, "well, that's something". Too many reaction shots, panels hamfisted and smooch together in some pages, and the people talking the peanut gallery really detracts from the actual fight. Jiren's backstory was nothing special, but I felt Vegeta's reaction to Jiren's sudden explanation, feels unneeded; I think the readers themselves are able to convey that Jiren's wish is a bit silly without others commenting for us. I thought the presentation of Ultra Instinct was "ok", but nothing speculator, since the build up to it hasn't gave it enough pay off, personally.

There was a scene in the manga, can't remember the number of the chapter at the moment, but it was Gohan vs Klefa (is that her official spelling?) that bother me somewhat. Prior to that scene, Goku questioned Jiren of how come he's not helping out his members after being wrecked and Jiren just shrugs it off. When Gohan was dealing with Klefa, this scene would be a good opportunity to highlight the differences between the two; instead of Goku being surprised that Gohan is "strong" (I think that panel was unneeded), this should strike as a opportunity for Jiren to have a "gotcha moment", criticizing Goku for not helping out his son; in which Goku would respond "I don't need to help my son, he got it handle", which forms the trusts Goku had with his allies and teammates, something Jiren doesn't seem to understand (judging of what Toyotaro is attempting to draw the readers too). So, the thought I had that Toyotaro had a tendency of putting too many reactions rather than using them in a more meaningful manner (not saying he has to absolutely used every single one of them) and none of them leaves the "show, don't tell" aspect efficient, I think.

[Bergamo]

When there are 2 versions of the same story it's only natural that they will be compared. Saying, "Haha, you compared the manga to the anime, that means the manga is bad," is really meaningless. Also, other posters post things in unrelated threads like,"I'd give super an 8/10... Unless you're talking about the manga, that trash is a 0/10," does that make the Super Anime automatically bad.

Your argument is more of a gotcha rather that a coherent point.

Yes, it's natural to compare them but that's not what this thread is about, especially not for nonsense jabs like "Oh, I liked this chapter, Toyotarou did x and y and I think it worked. Unlike the horrible anime". This doesn't tell me this person is actually interested in discussing the manga.

I don't remember ever reading those types of comments but no, they wouldn't give the impression the anime couldn't stand on its two legs because its status is being the main product. Unless that thread was specifically about the anime, but I fail to see why would anyone talk about the manga in a thread like that.

It's pretty coherent but maybe you didn't understand it. I also have no idea what kind of English "a gotcha" is so we're even.

A "gotcha," is an argument that tries to invalidate the opponents entire statement based on 1 perceived flaw. I understand your post, I just disagree.

Also, creating a double standard and justifying it with, "MAIN PRODUCT," doesn't work. The manga is a 100% canon continuation and holds just as much validity as the anime counterpart.

[YamiGoku]

The manga and anime are both flawed, the manga composition is bad and the anime production was a nightmare that caused many problems.

The anime and manga are both a success, the anime ranked on top 10 ratings from start to finish, the manga started as a promotional manga but grew into popularity and size.

comparitions are inevitable, the problem is that most people can't compare the manga and the anime without trashing the other, making the oposite side respond to the argument in a similar unfriendly way.

we could just enjoy what we like and let others do the same, but no, we have to trash the other side to prove ours is better.

[Bergamo]

The manga and anime are both flawed, the manga composition is bad and the anime production was a nightmare that caused many problems.

The anime and manga are both a success, the anime ranked on top 10 ratings from start to finish, the manga started as a promotional manga but grew into popularity and size.

comparitions are inevitable, the problem is that most people can't compare the manga and the anime without trashing the other, making the oposite side respond to the argument in a similar unfriendly way.

we could just enjoy what we like and let others do the same, but no, we have to trash the other side to prove ours is better.

I could not agree more. This really is the biggest problem in the DBS community.