"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Saturnine]

Come on, Kale shouldn't be anywhere near this strong! Even in the anime she got murked by a tired SSj God at her strongest, which I believe reflects pretty well how strong she should justifiably be. Probably 2-3x stronger than a SSj3 of similar base power, but still way below SSj God. Making her as strong as she is in Toyotaro's manga is hard to receive as anything better than insufferable Broly wank by proxy. She may be special, but suddenly owning low GoD tier characters is just... crazy bad. Seems Toyotaro's comparatively consistent power scaling has been more the result of a long-lasting fluke than actual conscious effort. Which is a damn shame.

[Dbzfan94]

Well Toyotaro did the impossible.

He made me not hate Kale as a character.

Power scaling is another story, but I couldn't stand the meek and whiny Kale from the anime.

[Marlowe89]

What I liked:

As expected, Kale's character in general is more intriguing in the manga than the anime, partly because it doesn't rely on an overused trope. She's possibly the most talented Saiyan combatant in Universe 6, but her relationship with Caulifla makes her hesitant to reveal that fact. That's an interesting dynamic. To the anime's credit, "shy" Kale did lay the groundwork for developing the bond between herself and Caulifla in a way that contributed to their roles in that medium, but the manga's angle here is just so much more fascinating from a characterization perspective.

Freeza's dynamic with Caulifla/Kale is also fun because he takes a slightly different approach to Universe 6's Saiyans. While he still revels in making their lives as miserable as possible, he seems far less petty here and more enthusiastic about seeing what kind of powers and abilities they might have up their sleeves. He wasn't frazzled about Kale's outburst at all until Goku interfered. I was hoping Toyotaro wouldn't project Freeza's history with the Saiyans on this fight too much, and I'm glad he didn't.

There's some damn good artwork going on this month from a conceptual standpoint. Kale's berserker form is less bulky than the anime, which fits Toriyama's aesthetic choices more than Toei's designs, even if it'll most likely become super bulky again in the next chapter. Golden Freeza looks fantastic.

What I didn't like:

Nothing much. I will say that I wasn't exactly sold on the intensity/tension of Freeza vs. Caulifla. I think that's mostly because of the paneling; it wasn't bad, but it could have been a lot better.

Overall:

Loved it. Sometimes we need a break from the chaotic structure of the tournament to focus on characters who are supposed to play an important role in the story, and now was as good a time as ever to do that. Fans of the anime's approach will probably appreciate this chapter. As long as Toyotaro doesn't completely depart from the frantic nature demonstrated previously within the arc, this strikes a nice balance for the narrative going forward.

[Cipher]

Super fun chapter. I'm thoroughly enjoying the arc so far, and this was one of the highlights. I can jive with Kale being strong enough to give non-serious Freeza and Goku trouble, if that's the route they take. Her entire section of the chapter is quite well-handled, and it's an exciting spot to leave off.

Toyotaro's up to his habit of adding too many in-between actions to panels again, but it's only lightly intrusive this month. On this page, there's no reason the bottom-left panel of Freeza shouldn't simply be the kick itself, with implied impact, rather than the windup. We lose the sense of speed.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Other than that—and that's the only real example of it this time around—I quite enjoyed all the action this month.

Also, Toyotaro breaks out the squiggly Toriyama backgrounds, which look good:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Doctor.]

There's no sense of scale at all.

Caulifla shoots a blast that takes up half of the stage yet we see, in the next page, that it barely blew up a portion at the border:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The fight choreography this chapter was good enough. I liked the way Freeza was being portrayed too. The way Caulifla and, especially, Kale are portrayed isn't much better (or better at all) than the anime. Kale isn't as annoying but she's still got this generic and unbearable inner conflict going on. I can't help but feel we've seen this exact same dynamic and character arc done better elsewhere: Gohan and Goku in the Cell Games. An insecure character with latent potential and huge power that has to step up to protect their idol, eventually losing themselves in their newfound power; eventually (as will probably happen with Kale if the anime is anything to go by), they'll gain confidence and control over their power thanks to the words of that idol. The problem is that the Gohan/Goku dynamic worked much better then and Gohan's conflict actually had some weight to it (whether you believe it was out-of-character or not) since he had time to be characterized and developed beforehand in previous arcs.

I've already explained how Kale's strength is, narratively, a problem, so I won't go over that again. This "prodigy" concept that modern Dragon Ball keeps shoving down our throats at every turn in order to get away from training sequences and explanations is completely antithetical to what the original series stood for.

[Bergamo]

There's no sense of scale at all.

Caulifla shoots a blast that takes up half of the stage yet we see, in the next page, that it barely blew up a portion at the border:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The fight choreography this chapter was good enough. I liked the way Freeza was being portrayed too. The way Caulifla and, especially, Kale are portrayed isn't much better (or better at all) than the anime. Kale isn't as annoying but she's still got this generic and unbearable inner conflict going on. I can't help but feel we've seen this exact same dynamic and character arc done better elsewhere: Gohan and Goku in the Cell Games. An insecure character with latent potential and huge power that has to step up to protect their idol, eventually losing themselves in their newfound power; eventually (as will probably happen with Kale if the anime is anything to go by), they'll gain confidence and control over their power thanks to the words of that idol. The problem is that the Gohan/Goku dynamic worked much better then and Gohan's conflict actually had some weight to it (whether you believe it was out-of-character or not) since he had time to be characterized and developed beforehand in previous arcs.

I've already explained how Kale's strength is, narratively, a problem, so I won't go over that again. This "prodigy" concept that modern Dragon Ball keeps shoving down our throats at every turn in order to get away from training sequences and explanations is completely antithetical to what the original series stood for.

The scale is correct. The stage is not as large as you'd think.

[MegaBossMan]

By far the best chapter we've seen for the ToP Arc; I would go as far to say that it outpaces the anime's take on the initial Kale transformation, but the anime (specifically #100) handled the subject manner horribly so that's not really to say much. Regardless, the battle choreography was wonderful and the way Kale's characterization is handled even more so, albeit I doubt the eventual "I hate who I am!" shift won't be as effective seeing as in this case, she'd be growing off a competent character rather than a whiny Legendary-you-know-who marketing ploy. As far as storyboarding goes, there are a couple of Toyotaro-isms with a lack of scale and the prevalence of wind-up, but ultimately this chapter is much rougher than anything he'd produced so far; in a good way. We're finally seeing him develop his rough edge of battle, and I'm certainly excited to see him continue to develop in the coming months.

I think my only issue is that in one of the panels, Freeza specifically calls out Kale by name; it's nitpicky, but that's remarkably out of character for everyone's favorite gilded tyrant. As I recall, he only ever referred to Goku as monkey throughout the entirety of the Namek arc, and it wasn't until Res F that we see him actually call Goku by name. Hell, he still calls Gohan "Goku's boy" and Krillin "The small / bald one". He's not a character who respects anyone else enough to call them by name, especially not a Saiyan that he's only recently met with; that's his proclivity. My only guess is that since Kale is a new character, Toyotaro is attempting to accustom the reader with names by using them in every instance he can; it does make the manga independent from the anime, but at the same time it hurts Freeza.

In the grand scheme of things though, that just says well about the quality of this chapter. If the only criticism I could come up with is the misuse of a name, that means everything else in the chapter was remarkably well-done. Bravo, Toyotaro!

[Doctor.]

The scale is correct. The stage is not as large as you'd think.

It clearly is. There are 80 fighters in the tournament. Either the stage is large, which allows all these fighters to be spaced out, in which case Toyotaro keeps portraying its size in an inconsistent way, or the stage is small and Toyotaro isn't doing a good job of showing that considering how many 1v1 fights take place with nobody else on panel.

[Cetra]

The scale is correct. The stage is not as large as you'd think.

Caulila stands on a completely different ring (look at the floor) in both panels. One is white the other one is not (or "less white" you can also count the rings). Yet the later panel indicates she has shot from a ring which was not the one shown before.

[Bergamo]

The scale is correct. The stage is not as large as you'd think.

It clearly is. There are 80 fighters in the tournament. Either the stage is large, which allows all these fighters to be spaced out, in which case Toyotaro keeps portraying its size in an inconsistent way, or the stage is small and Toyotaro isn't doing a good job of showing that considering how many 1v1 fights take place with nobody else on panel.

The stage is drawn small in every panel, therefore it is small. 1v1 fights like Goku and Jiren have been shown to be interrupted because the arena is small.

[The gr]

It was a fun chapter with Frieza being the highlight here, I'm grateful the manga didn't pull a Frieza rage out moment and his dynamic with the Saiyans is also good.

The fight choreography was good but I feel like the scale of the ring is off when portraying a ring with more than 40 character in it, this is definitely an issue since the first chapter of the Top.

I did liked the potrayal of Kale and Caulifla, they were more likable here however is ridiculous that Kale is God tier, is just make the god form less special.

[emperior]

Kale is a much better character in the manga, and I like how Toyotaro treated her new transformation even though I feel he has made her way too strong way too rapidly. I wonder how Goku will even beat Kefla in the manga, if he doesn’t get Omen.

[majinwarman]

Kale is a much better character in the manga, and I like how Toyotaro treated her new transformation even though I feel he has made her way too strong way too rapidly. I wonder how Goku will even beat Kefla in the manga, if he doesn’t get Omen.

I think that Goku and Freeza are going to beat her working together.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Kale is a much better character in the manga, and I like how Toyotaro treated her new transformation even though I feel he has made her way too strong way too rapidly. I wonder how Goku will even beat Kefla in the manga, if he doesn’t get Omen.

I think that Goku and Freeza are going to beat her working together.

Maybe even, they fuse themselves. That would be very interesting. A Goku and Freeza fusion.

[majinwarman]

Kale is a much better character in the manga, and I like how Toyotaro treated her new transformation even though I feel he has made her way too strong way too rapidly. I wonder how Goku will even beat Kefla in the manga, if he doesn’t get Omen.

I think that Goku and Freeza are going to beat her working together.

Maybe even, they fuse themselves. That would be very interesting. A Goku and Freeza fusion.

Maybe in Heroes.

[Sora Saiyan]

This chapter has actually made me like Caulifla and Kale. Tbf I actually started to like Kale when she took the necklace from Cabba in the recruitment chapters, but still it’s good to see her character like this, it’s not perfect but some gripes I have with certain characters is what keeps them unique.

This chapter actually had enjoyable moments, but I will always be annoyed by Kales power. I know it’s not as hard to swallow when we find out she’s not only a hell of a lot faster than SSJ Caulifla, but Freeza also confirms she packs more of a punch too, so she’s just more powerful overall in just her base form. So I guess with that freaky SSJ form that gives an insane boost and keeps on rapidly gaining power it’s possible, but I still don’t like it. I guess that’s just down to me. I’ll probably be more annoyed next month, or something will make me feel better about this whole thing.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 37-

What's this??! After 4 months of disappointing chapters, one after another, finally a TOP chapter that I love?! About damn time!!
Easily my favourite TOP chapter, but then again the only ones I truly enjoyed was this one and chapter 33.

Great choreography and story flow overall!

Caulifla is okay here, but the anime version of her is perfect so I will take that one.
Hard to say which Cabba version I like, considering he's boring in both versions.

Manga Base Kale > Anime Base Kale
It's not even a contest. Unlike the anime version, she's not useless in her base form. She can kick ass and even be a badass. I freaking love her here!
Her transformation was also better. I liked the tension and denial that nobody could be stronger than her sis that she was going through. And she still didn't start screaming "Son Goku! Son Goku!! Son Goku!!!" like a blatant "homage" to Broly. In fact, the only thing that reminds me of Broly here is just her transformation and that's great.

Even though Cabba asking Kale to release all her power and she refusing to do it because of Caulifla, felt like a parallel to Krillin/Trunks/Vegeta in the Cell arc.

I'm not even surprised Dercori doesn't have her talismans here and used a generic attack against Kale...None of the new characters have a unique attack here...

Anyway besides that, If I had a complaint about this chapter is that Toyotaro went the easy route and made Freeza fight the three U6 Saiyans.
Freeza being stuck to always fighting against Saiyans is a formula that is worn out at this point. I'm glad the anime didn't follow this route (he only eliminated Cabba), even though I can't deny that despiste that detail I had a blast reading this chapter. Now I just hope the fight gets interrupted none of them eliminates the other. I want to see more of Freeza and the U6 girls.

Couldn't care less about power levels. The girls are new characters and new characters can be as strong as the writers want.
Freeza even said SSJ Caulifla is stronger than him and SSJ Goku were in Namek. A good eye opener for the people that used the stupid logic of "She only unlocked SSJ now, she can't be stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek." Seriously wtf...

Another ting that Toyotaro is doing better than Toei is not telling every chapter how many time is left. Toei kept the audience updated in almost every episode and that didn't work
out well, because most of the time only one/two minutes would have passed and that affected the audience vision about the pacing.

I really loved this chapter! Now I hope this keeps up next month and I don't have to wait 5 months again for another great chapter.

[Miracles]

The scaling is correct. Kale in the anime fought a stronger red Goku equally. Portarying her as Blue tier.
In the manga the fact that Freeza thinks he has to get serious to handle Kale proves she is Blue tier. However Kale powers up even more after Freeza said that.
It's obvious in both outlines Toriyama has Kale that strong.

Good chapter, the dialogue and the fighting was good.

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

Toyo's take on U6 saiyans is way more interesting than their anime counterpart. Makes me curious on how Kefla is going to be handle, or if Kefla even make an appearence. Overall I enjoy this chapter, and a big leap in quality in terms of art and fight choreography when compared to the previous two chapter. Jiren must be pretty hard to draw for Toyo.

[Bullza]

Dragon Ball Super Volume 6 - 195,000 copies sold in 14 days

That's a decent chunk behind Volume 5 which sold 219,000 copies in 10 days. It's also worse than Volume 4 which sold 217,000 copies in 11 days.

It's a tad ahead of Volume 3.