"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[OLKv3]

So why this concept was abandoned by in this arc? I mean should we have like 3 or 4 extra timelines due the retreat trips with the Time Machine?

Actually in order for a new world to be created, one has to alter the past. Merely traveling to the past does not do this.

Was this ever implied anywhere in the series? And even if that's right, shouldn't also Trunks first trip (injured asking for help) create a new timeline?

It did though. Trunks going to the past created a timeline where Zamasu is killed by Beerus.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So why this concept was abandoned by in this arc? I mean should we have like 3 or 4 extra timelines due the retreat trips with the Time Machine?

Actually in order for a new world to be created, one has to alter the past. Merely traveling to the past does not do this.

Was this ever implied anywhere in the series?

It was all but confirmed when Beerus killing Zamasu in itself created a new timeline.

[ahill1]

Trunks' healing powers stuff wasn't as bad as I thought. Apparently he wasn't aware of it when he was holding Gowasu's hand, and his healing powers helped Gowasu "go back to life", even if he didn't use it at its full potential. The MSSJB stuff (at least the way it was worded out in Manga Stream) makes me think Goku didn't get any stronger, he just mastered the form in a way he wouldn't lose any power. But that'd make Vegeta at like a pretty low portion of his powers considering Black SSJ was already defeating him lol... or Goku got stronger than Vegeta, dunno. Anyway, this is kind of dumb.

But the maestry of the form seems to be different here than in the Cell saga. In Super, Goku is just keeping the power inside his body so he won't lose it (hence why he has no aura). It causes a strain to the body if used for a long period of time, apparently.

So it's like as the fighter would be constantly losing power when in Blue, explaining why Vegeta wasn't efficient against Black earlier. But the problem is that Vegeta also got a Senzu while fighting Black, so his Blue form should be at FP... unless he loses like 80% of power in two seconds lol.

[TKA]

That's because it's a fact SSIkari didn't have any explanation besides being the power of rage, which tells us nothing since that's the trigger for SSJ in the first place.

It's false equivalency because there IS no equivalency. Let's look at this step by step:

Kaioken - trained for. Build up.

Super Saiyan - the entire second half of the Namek arc constantly brought up the Super Saiyan. We were conditioned for it. We knew it was a thing, and we knew it was likely going to be Goku who found it since both Vegeta and Ginyu thought he already had. Was the culmination of Goku's arc which started with the revelations from Raditz's introduction, where the saiyans rejected Goku for being too weak—yet he is the one to become the Super Saiyan. Build up. Conclusion of a theme.

Super Saiyan 2 - the ENTIRETY of the Android saga was building up to a transformation more powerful than Super Saiyan 1. Then we spent the second half showing various characters' attempts to transcend Super Saiyan. Both Vegeta and Trunks failed to find that form in their own ways, and Goku failed simply because he wasn't as strong as Gohan. This form was the result of Gohan's development for the entirety of the manga from Raditz to that point—a symbolic passing of the torch. Build up. Conclusion of a character arc.

Super Saiyan 3 - came right the fuck out of nowhere, but then accomplished nothing, was explained and is a flawed form with more drawbacks than benefits. It played into the narrative that Super Saiyan was a waste of time, which culminated in Gohan being the strongest non-fused character by remaining in his base form. This form eating up Goku's time made it so the next generation would fight Buu. That's in-keeping with his desire to pass the torch still being part of the character. Super Saiyan 3 had a thematic as well as a plot and lore-level significance.

That's how story structure works. Just getting angry and yelling loudly, contrary to popular belief, is never the killing blow. Trunks' form, which is still unexplained, came out of fucking nowhere, solved all the problems of the cast whenever it was used, had no foreshadowing and was executed beyond haphazardly. All these reasons are why it's a false equivalency.

It's like saying a paper cut is the same as getting your arm amputate on the grounds that they're both injuries.

where I pretend the original manga did everything right

It did do everything right.

and didn't have any " bullshit, unexplained Super Saiyan transformation", when there was SSJ2 for Goku and Vegeta and SSJ3.

Already explained. Reread and stop with this false equivalency nonsense. These are not the same as what happened in the Super anime's arc, so stop trying to say they are. Instead, defend Trunks' form. Tell me why it was a good plot point. Tell me why it didn't come out of nowhere. Tell me what themes Trunks transforming out of nowhere and the form never being discussed by ANYONE actually delivers on. Actually refute my points if you want to continue this discussion.

By the way, following Toyotaro's logic Gohan is a healer too. He got the clothes, trained with the Z-Sword, the Elder Kaioshin danced around him...

Yes, that's the obvious implication, hence Toyotaro incorporating the dance into his explanation. Why do you people think he's so incompetent that he would reference something Gohan went through in his explanation, but then not apply it to Gohan as well?

Next, I don't see your point. Gohan having healing powers fits with the character to a much larger extent than being super strong. In addition, it creates a thematic parallel with Trunks, which is good since Gohan was his master.

Goku found a better solution to get stronger by dominating SSJ.

I don't think it's that simple.

Goku's new power is already destroying his body and takes a toll on him. Vegeta's solution isn't anywhere near as dangerous. What's happening, in essence, is Goku's solution gives him more power, but Vegeta's solution is more sustainable.

[OLKv3]

Trunks' healing powers stuff wasn't as bad as I thought. Apparently he wasn't aware of it when he was holding Gowasu's hand, and his healing powers helped Gowasu "go back to life", even if he didn't use it at its full potential. The MSSJB stuff (at least the way it was worded out in Manga Stream) makes me think Goku didn't get any stronger, he just mastered the form in a way he wouldn't lose any power. But that'd make Vegeta at like a pretty low portion of his powers considering Black SSJ was already defeating him lol... or Goku got stronger than Vegeta, dunno. Anyway, this is kind of dumb.

But the maestry of the form seems to be different here than in the Cell saga. In Super, Goku is just keeping the power inside his body so he won't lose it (hence why he has no aura). It causes a strain to the body if used for a long period of time, apparently.

So it's like as the fighter would be constantly losing power when in Blue, explaining why Vegeta wasn't efficient against Black earlier. But the problem is that Vegeta also got a Senzu while fighting Black, so his Blue form should be at FP... unless he loses like 80% of power in two seconds lol.

It's just SSJ3 again. Full power SSJ3 was capable of killing Buu, but he never got to use it
Goku however, can use Full Power SSB, and he gets a massive boost because of it

[ahill1]

Does he get a boost though? While reading it I got the impression he is just keeping the power inside himself and therefore not constantly losing it like a non-mastered SSJ Blue.

[TKA]

Does he get a boost though? While reading it I got the impression he is just keeping the power inside himself and therefore not constantly losing it like a non-mastered SSJ Blue.

Yes, he's getting a boost. The power that would be leaking out is now being refocused into strength, at the cost of damaging his body.

It's different from Vegeta's answer, which was to minimize the leaking so he could fight much longer and without damaging his body.

[ahill1]

Does he get a boost though? While reading it I got the impression he is just keeping the power inside himself and therefore not constantly losing it like a non-mastered SSJ Blue.

Yes, he's getting a boost. The power that would be leaking out is now being refocused into strength, at the cost of damaging his body.

It's different from Vegeta's answer, which was to minimize the leaking so he could fight much longer and without damaging his body.

He is just keeping the power into his body, preventing a great leakage of power, hence why he is always fighting at 100%. I don't see him getting a boost based on how they described Goku's usage of the Blue form, although assuming a boost would likely solve some issues, such as Vegeta even post Senzu being still < Black.

[OLKv3]

Does he get a boost though? While reading it I got the impression he is just keeping the power inside himself and therefore not constantly losing it like a non-mastered SSJ Blue.

Yes, he's getting a boost. The power that would be leaking out is now being refocused into strength, at the cost of damaging his body.

It's different from Vegeta's answer, which was to minimize the leaking so he could fight much longer and without damaging his body.

He is just keeping the power into his body, preventing a great leakage of power, hence why he is always fighting at 100%. I don't see him getting a boost based on how they described Goku's usage of the Blue form, although assuming a boost would likely solve some issues, such as Vegeta even post Senzu being still < Black.

The boost is that SSB is finally at full power. Just like SSJ3, it leaks so much that you can never fight using it's full power. But since nothing is leaking, we're seeing what SSB's true power really is, and it's massive.

[Basako]

Does he get a boost though? While reading it I got the impression he is just keeping the power inside himself and therefore not constantly losing it like a non-mastered SSJ Blue.

Yes, he's getting a boost. The power that would be leaking out is now being refocused into strength, at the cost of damaging his body.

It's different from Vegeta's answer, which was to minimize the leaking so he could fight much longer and without damaging his body.

He is just keeping the power into his body, preventing a great leakage of power, hence why he is always fighting at 100%. I don't see him getting a boost based on how they described Goku's usage of the Blue form, although assuming a boost would likely solve some issues, such as Vegeta even post Senzu being still < Black.

More than a boost, it's a way of using the power of the SSB at full efficiency, at 100%. Vegeta being fully recovered with the senzu doesn't mean he could do that. He was using the blue power maybe at 70% and losing the rest in the air.

[ahill1]

Oh yeah, I agree that it's just him using the power at 100%, instead of probably never fighting with it at 100% like the others non-complete SSJB. I just think it's unlikely it'd make Goku's 100% also stronger than he'd be if, let's say, he just turned into SSJB based on how it was described by Vegeta.

[Kanassa]

Say what you want about Goku here but at least they gave a reason to why he can fight Zamasu. In the anime he just can and no one questions it.

No in the anime he had the element of surprise the TWO times he actually got any actual hits on Merged Zamasu. First time was his kahmehameha piercing Zamasu's attack (Breaking both of his limbs in the process), which caught Zamasu off guard and thus receiving a surprise kahmehameha to the face (Which both the manga and anime prove can be terribly damaging), and the second time he whips out a technique that Zamasu hasn't seen before for another surprise attack. After that, Goku basically gives up and goes ''We are fucked'' and gets no other hits in.

[HeroR]

Say what you want about Goku here but at least they gave a reason to why he can fight Zamasu. In the anime he just can and no one questions it.

No in the anime he had the element of surprise the TWO times he actually got any actual hits on Merged Zamasu. First time was his kahmehameha piercing Zamasu's attack (Breaking both of his limbs in the process), which caught Zamasu off guard and thus receiving a surprise kahmehameha to the face (Which both the manga and anime prove can be terribly damaging), and the second time he whips out a technique that Zamasu hasn't seen before for another surprise attack. After that, Goku basically gives up and goes ''We are fucked'' and gets no other hits in.

Merged Zamasu should know about the Kaioken since Zuno told him everything about Goku and he knew Goku's other techniques. He probably just didn't expect it since he heard it was extremely dangerous to use. I also think in the manga Merged Zamasu let Goku's Kamehameha pierce him to see if his immortality was intact.

I do agree on everything else. Goku got some good hits in after he did a limit break, Merged Zamasu finally got serious, and Goku said point-blank, "We need to fuse, or we're going to die". And unlike Manga Merged Zamasu, Anime Merged Zamasu was going to crack Goku and Vegeta like eggs after they defused. No toying around. There is nothing in the anime that suggest that Goku stood even a snowballs chance in hell against Merged Zamasu once he stopped screwing around.

[Kanassa]

Merged Zamasu should know about the Kaioken since Zuno told him everything about Goku and he knew Goku's other techniques. He probably just didn't expect it since he heard it was extremely dangerous to use. I also think in the manga Merged Zamasu let Goku's Kamehameha pierce him to see if his immortality was intact.

I do agree on everything else. Goku got some good hits in after he did a limit break, Merged Zamasu finally got serious, and Goku said point-blank, "We need to fuse, or we're going to die". And unlike Manga Merged Zamasu, Anime Merged Zamasu was going to crack Goku and Vegeta like eggs after they defused. No toying around. There is nothing in the anime that suggest that Goku stood even a snowballs chance in hell against Merged Zamasu once he stopped screwing around.

Yes, he should know that Goku could use the kaioken, but considering that Goku has not used it up to that point, it'd be pretty easy for Merged Zamasu (Who also has the extra baggage of another timelines much older Zamasu) to forget about it until Goku used it.

Also, on Goku's hits. Looking back through the fight now, those two were really the ONLY hits Goku got on Merged Zamasu. Every other time was moment of Zamasu going "Pffft, bitch please. I'm a God". Which makes the claims of Goku fighting Zamasu that closely in the anime more ludicrous.

[Gog]

What I think of Mastered Super Saiyan Blue:

[spoiler]Ch. 15, pg. 37.2.-4
Context: As Trunks recovers from sparring
Goku: “You surprised me!!! I can’t believe you managed to get this far on your own!!”
Trunks: “Ah, well… Even still, it was nothing against Black…”
Goku: “I thought it would be a piece of cake, but I guess we’re in trouble…”

Ch. 20, pg. 19.4
Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose
Goku: “Vegeta. Maybe we should actually start working together now?”
Vegeta: “Don’t mess with me. You go take care of the other one! This isn’t gonna get anywhere if he keeps reviving and powering up.”

Ch. 20, pg. 30.1
Context: after Vegeta’s been defeated
Trunks: “Goku! We must retreat! If this keeps going, we’re all gonna die!”

Ch. 23, pg. 29.4
Context: after Goku is knocked into a building
Goku: “I’ve got no power left…”

Ch. 22, pg. 35.1-2
Context: Goku has just turned Super Saiyan God
Trunks: “What?! You’re also gonna use Super Saiyan God?”
Goku: “I lost quite a lot of energy using the Mafuba. Going Blue right now won’t work for long. Well, for you, I guess this is more than enough.”
Note: He’s talking to Zamasu at the end there.

Ch. 23, pg. 25.5
Context: after Goku is hit by a Klangite cube
Zamasu: “Those are Klangite -- the hardest known material in the universe. Can you not even hold your own against mere objects?”

Ch. 23, pg. 26.2
Subject: Goku
Trunks: “At this rate, he’s most likely going to lose…”

Ch. 23, pg. 26.3
Subject: Goku
Gowasu: “If he could only make his stand for one more hour… However, as far as I can see, that might be beyond all hope…”[/spoiler]

It's a complete out of nowhere twist.

Anyway, my review of chapter 16:

My opinion on the flashback that took up nearly half of the chapter isn't all that great. Dabura going through the effort to destroy the already destroyed Z Sword is what I would consider ludicrous. Why would he think to do that? Anyways, Shin's death was really good him dying and finally knowing he had stopped the resurrection of Majin Buu was great. Toyo's art helped with Shin's death as well.

It's hard realizing that Mai's still technically an old women in a child's body. Anyways, It's really obvious that Black Goku is Zamasu. When you say that there may be a God who will turn evil, and immediately cut away to a new God who immediately talks about purging unnecessary life. Even then, I like Zamasu them acknowledging that as a fighter he's pretty good, but there's still something wrong with his personality. Also, his cockiness is really entertaining. Of course, it is scarily like Goku Black himself.

The cutaway of Dr Brief's cat from the future licking Mai, and that being brought back to the present was clever paneling. Overall, I didn't like the Trunks flashback, but the Zamasu bits were all really good. Heck, his battle with Shin's bodyguard was also really well done. The way he beat him was incredibly inventive, and clever.

Overall, I did enjoy the second half of chapter significantly more than the first half.

Chapter 17:

I really do appreciate the differences in physique and design between the Babari in the chapter. Gowasu making a joke about fusing into a single being with Zamasu, and Zamasu waving it awkwardly off was really entertaining. I do find it interesting that the whole entire saga was all caused by a single Babari's selfishness. If that never had happened than Zamasu would have seen the hooded Babari stop the brutal brawl.

I really do like how Toyotaro finished the Zamasu scene he really does look downtrodden and defeated when he realizes that he himself may have the power to stop evil, but as explained by Gowasu by being a Kaio Shin he simply is not allowed to do so. It's a great way to end his scene. On a big if, has he really become evil? Or has Gowasu finally gotten to his apprentice?

I simply adore the Mario Kart Gag Scene, Beerus's annoyance at not being in first place, Vegeta bumping into Goku with a fierce cry, and then proceeding to land in a pile of rocks, cursing his bad luck, Beerus's victorious cry as he's in first place, promptly followed by a reaction shot of his stunned face at the Turtle Shell Trunks threw at him. And to top it all off he destroys the video game remote in a fit of anger.

There's only two problems to it. One I disliked Trunks winning considering he never did anything funny in this gag scene, however I did like the fact that it was Trunks, and Future Trunks teaming up so he could win. Also, it served no purpose to the plot, and was essentially filler. Trunk's staring peacefully at the Pilaf Gang, and his Present self playing another round of Mario Kart was a nice touch.

It's annoying that Goku, and Vegeta arent taking the situation seriously. Beerus's still being annoyed over the fact that he lost the game is still entertaining, and him demanding a barrel of beer from a waitress is and always will be incredibly funny. Kibito being the one blamed by Shin as the one who's Goku Black is something that should have actually happened.

Beerus's reaction to Goku calling Zeno, 'Zenny' is once again really great. Honestly, I'd actually say Toyotaro is in his element when writing gags. And Beerus warning Shin to not die on him was fun.

Overall, Chapter 17 was an incredible chapter.

[supersaiyan1993]

I'm really enjoying the manga and imo its aot better than the anime. I'm glad its protraying ssb to be really powerfull and its just been mastered. reminds me of the cell games where goku was in ssj.

also about trunks having healing powers. a bit random but does make slight sense. it couldve been done better though.

[Saturnine]

This whole "completing SSj blue" thing is not that cool IMO. It's a cop-out. Earlier in the manga we were only told that it's not good to transfom into SSj blue, drop out of it and then transform again. We were never told anything about the form constantly losing ki. Wasn't the very opposite demonstrated against Golden Freeza? It's Freeza who was losing ki, and SSj Blue's perfect ki control led to comparatively little stamina drain. Which brings me to that - SSj Blue is supposed to have great ki control, and intrinsic calmness, also in the anime it was learned through the same mechanism that Toyotaro displays here in the first place (keeping your ki inside rather than having it leak out of your body)! Toyotaro went and completely disregarded what was established in both the RoF movie and the Super anime in regards to SSj Blue.

Also, this whole idea is just so similar to Kaioken that you can't help but think he's just trying hard to be different here. I mean it's practically identical in mechanics! Having more power temporarily, but causing your body to wear out becasue of it. Goku can't use this new power for long. This is literally freaking Kaioken.

Overall, this whole idea of having an aura = losing power is completely new and I'm not sure it's the right way to go, especially since it plain contradicts what was established earlier. But at least it's consistent with Toyotaro's own universe, so there's that at least. This appears to be the anime's equivalent to SSj Blue 10x Kaioken. But the contradictions between the manga and the anime are becoming ever more direct. It might grow on me though, Toyotaro's previous shenanigans sure have.

[Lord Beerus]

The reason in the manga is pretty much the same as the anime: Goku is just inexplicably far more stronger and talented than Vegeta.

Goku is only stronger now because he thought of a different possibility of dominating SSB.

Is the same thing in the Saga Cell. Goku found a better solution to get stronger by dominating SSJ.

Vegeta preferred to focus on second and third grade SSJ forms.
Goku had better results.

But in this case Vegeta's strategy was helpful and clever, but Goku again found a better way to dominate SSB,But Vegeta can also dominate the SSB as Goku

You are right. Vegeta even states that he can't use Blue's full power constantly "yet."
I was wondering wouldn't it be cool if Vegeta mastered the reacting without thinking skill instead of the Blue power?
Remember Whis was talking to Goku and Vegeta about that, something Beerus himself didn't even master.

But Goku doesn't get stronger from mastering SSJ. "Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different than regular Super Saiyan in terms of the power it grants the user. It's still the same standard 50x increase instead of something greater like ASSJ( Grade 2) or USSJ (Grade 3). However, in addition to the obvious benefits of minimizing the energy drain and incurring less stamina issues to make the form very easy to use in battle, being able to remain within the form for extended periods of time grants a huge benefit to training. Hell, one of the Super Exciting Guide books actually points this out and credits it as a huge factor in Goku's power growth while he was in the Room of Spirit and Time. Goku and Gohan just raised their base power level so high which in turn raised their Super Saiyan power level high enough to be a match for Cell.

And there's nothing to say Vegeta has never been able to fight at full power for SSJB, because he can but only for the "short while" that the form grant you have it if you don't master SSJB. The major inconsistency is that you can fight at 100%, prior to mastering the form. Vegeta states so himself. And it's not as if the moment you turn SSJB you can't maintain it's complete power, because you can, for the very least a short period of time. So it's not as if SSJB burns through your energy instantly. You just can't maintain it at 100% too long without mastering the form. This would mean that SSJ Goku Black, after his first Zenkai, is very much comparable to Merged Zamasu considering Vegeta fought SSJ Goku Black at 100% of the power of SSJB, or very least, incredibly close to the 100% power of SSJB, considering that SSJB Vegeta at a senzu and regained his full strength after he was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black following his zenkai. Or just the gap in strength between Goku and Vegeta is fucking huge, especially at 100% of SSJB.

[HeroR]

But Goku doesn't get stronger from mastering SSJ. "Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different than regular Super Saiyan in terms of the power it grants the user. It's still the same standard 50x increase instead of something greater like ASSJ( Grade 2) or USSJ (Grade 3). However, in addition to the obvious benefits of minimizing the energy drain and incurring less stamina issues to make the form very easy to use in battle, being able to remain within the form for extended periods of time grants a huge benefit to training. Hell, one of the Super Exciting Guide books actually points this out and credits it as a huge factor in Goku's power growth while he was in the Room of Spirit and Time. Goku and Gohan just raised their base power level so high which in turn raised their Super Saiyan power level high enough to be a match for Cell.

And there's nothing to say Vegeta has never been able to fight at full power for SSJB, because he can but only for the "short while" that the form grant you have it if you don't master SSJB. The major inconsistency is that you can fight at 100%, prior to mastering the form. Vegeta states so himself. And it's not as if the moment you turn SSJB you can't maintain it's complete power, because you can, for the very least a short period of time. So it's not as if SSJB burns through your energy instantly. You just can't maintain it at 100% too long without mastering the form. This would mean that SSJ Goku Black, after his first Zenkai, is very much comparable to Merged Zamasu considering Vegeta fought SSJ Goku Black at 100% of the power of SSJB, or very least, incredibly close to the 100% power of SSJB, considering that SSJB Vegeta at a senzu and regained his full strength after he was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black following his zenkai. Or just the gap in strength between Goku and Vegeta is fucking huge, especially at 100% of SSJB.

Thank you for that. It has been an ongoing myth that Mastered Super Saiyan is a stronger version of Super Saiyan, when it was explicitly stated to only be energy efficient. Vegeta even mocked the idea of a "higher form with an energy boost" when Trunks wondered if Mastering Super Saiyan made the form stronger.

Also, since Super Saiyan Rose is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why didn't Black have half of these problems? He never complained about his form being so flawed that he can't maintain full power.

[SaiyanGod117]

Goku and Gohan just raised their base power level so high which in turn raised their Super Saiyan power level high enough to be a match for Cell.

Is there actually any proof of this? I don't believe there is.