"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

In the original which, the Japanese? You understand it? It said brief moment? Come on, I'm not gonna just believe your word on this, prove it. For now the best I have is an official version that didn't say it was temporary as you said. That I can prove with evidence.

I'm not using headcanon, I told you, the fight itself is the definitive evidence. Then I added some more past context as supplement to it, which makes it totally possible to be.

I'm not going to pop in my Battle of Gods movie just to prove a point. Why don't you Google the original text for the movie.

It's headcanon nothing you said is in the manga. No one said Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form special and never related it to Trunks'. The fight isn't evidence when not even the characters acknowledge a different in Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

[Basako]

In the original which, the Japanese? You understand it? It said brief moment? Come on, I'm not gonna just believe your word on this, prove it. For now the best I have is an official version that didn't say it was temporary as you said. That I can prove with evidence.

I'm not using headcanon, I told you, the fight itself is the definitive evidence. Then I added some more past context as supplement to it, which makes it totally possible to be.

I'm not going to pop in my Battle of Gods movie just to prove a point. Why don't you Google the original text for the movie.

It's headcanon nothing you said is in the manga. No one said Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form special and never related it to Trunks'. The fight isn't evidence when not even the characters acknowledge a different in Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

I don't think I can find the original even in google, at most in Japanese, that I don't understand, or in other case the english version, which doesn't say brief.

But apparently you have it and you checked it, so prove me wrong. I'll eat my words if you do, I promise. For now the best I have said 'in that great moment', which doesn't specify the temporal condition of the boost.

It's not headcanon, I watched Vegeta fighting better than Black in SS2. I just connect the dots about his previos trainings and what I saw against Beerus. So Vegeta in SS2 was without any doubt stronger than Black base and very possibly than Black SS too.

I don't think Vegeta's SS2 is special, it's just really strong.

[TheSaiyanGod]

They actually never really get rid of their aura in the anime. In the anime, they state that SSB is already a transformation that showcases a pieceful and mastered mind and body connection, but since the idea behind it was to absorb the energy and not letting it out in the first place, we can see they never really did that. They maybe kept part of their Ki inside their bodies, but they still have auras (heck, just look at ssb kaioken).

To me, in the anime, the transformation never really made much sense. SSB is the result of a Saiyan turning Super Saiyan using God Ki. God Ki is supposedly achieved by keeping the Ki inside their bodies, but wouldn't that be extremely tiring? Wouldn't just use God Ki in the base form (which is the SSG in the manga) already be difficult, and SSB being Super Saiyan on top of that, be even more difficult to control and contain?

This is why in the manga the SSB transformation has a stamina drawback. It makes sense. Containing the power of Super Saiyan inside of your body all the time must be EXTREMELY tiring. Let alone keeping all the power + the aura (Perfected SSB). To me, the manga approach of God Ki in general is much more solidified in terms of logic and common sense, whether in the anime is just like... common now. They even make Goku suffering no effect from using Kaioken on top of a form that requires him to keep the power of a Super Saiyan inside his body all the time... I mean...

I still like the anime, don't get me wrong, but they should just make an effort in either addapting better to Toriyama's notes or atleast explain through dialogues what in the world is going on.

I could keep going, in the Goku Black Arc, Goku Black went from having difficulties fighting SS Goku to kicking away SSB Vegeta like he was Trunks, and then in his Rosé form, gets completely roasted by a slightly more powerful Vegeta some episodes later? Just... nonsense. In the manga, Toyotarou actually kept the Power Scale believable, making SS Goku Black lose to Vegeta, then overpowering him because of the Zenkais and achieving his God Ki form (Rosé), and then making Vegeta actually showcase battle knowledge using the SSG + SSB Combo to beat him. Soooo much better man

The anime is little inconsistent in the department of the SSJB auras, I do agree on that. At times we see Goku and Vegeta with aura when they power up into SSJB and stay in the form. But on other occasions, the auras just disappear after they become SSJB. But even when Goku and Gohan mastered SSJ they still produced auras when they still produced auras when they fought in those forms. Plus, whenever you multiply the Kiaoken, much Goku did tenfold in the anime, it always fuck up your body in some way. Also, the power scaling in the manga is extremely suspect as well. Considering you have to explain Base Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Future Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Goku Black > SSJ2 Vegeta with headcanon and hypothesis.

Plus, Mastered/Complete SSJB Goku being able to complete with Merged Zamasu just doesn't sit well with me. I mean, Vegeta fights at the full power of SSJB and he's stronger than SSJR Goku Black but is no match for Merged Zamasu, but Goku at the full power of SSJB is on par with Merged Zamasu. Eh. That could have been handled better.

The auras disappear in the anime after the transformation is common.
Not always do they struggle with the activated aura, it does not mean that transformation is dominated.

Really, in the anime Goku and Vegeta had no problem with the SSB. But I would not say the transformation would be dominated only because of this, it just did not show weaknesses. And so it did not need to be improved (but it might happen). But maybe in the anime it's already dominated, while in manga this just happened now. They're different concepts

You got it all wrong, mate.

SS2 Future Trunks < Base Goku Black < SS2 Goku Black = SS2 Vegeta < SSB Vegeta < SSR Goku Black.


Also, Vegeta beat Goku Black with SSG + SSB Combo, he wasn''t "SSB at full power". Full Power SSB is what Goku did against Zamasu, and that is extremely strong. Vegeta didn't do it.

Get your facts straight.

Vegeta SSB was actually stronger than Black.

In SSG he was already able to hold him, and by using the SSB, Vegeta managed to attack Black efficiently, without wasting energy.

[Misirius]

Vegeta SSB was actually stronger than Black.

In SSG he was already able to hold him, and by using the SSB, Vegeta managed to attack Black efficiently, without wasting energy.

Vegeta was only able to beat SSR Goku Black because of the SSG+SSB Combo, if he kept in SSB, the stamina problems would start to kick in and he would feel exhausted pretty quick. I assume Goku Black wouldn't because he is a God, so he already knows how to keep his Ki inside without getting tired easily.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta SSB was actually stronger than Black.

In SSG he was already able to hold him, and by using the SSB, Vegeta managed to attack Black efficiently, without wasting energy.

Vegeta was only able to beat SSR Goku Black because of the SSG+SSB Combo, if he kept in SSB, the stamina problems would start to kick in and he would feel exhausted pretty quick. I assume Goku Black wouldn't because he is a God, so he already knows how to keep his Ki inside without getting tired easily.

Vegeta SSG surprised Black SSJ Rosé with his speed.
Black still asks how Vegeta manages to take so much power out of that body.

Vegeta SSG can hold Black (not beat), and by using SSB he can take advantage of the fight.
He was just saving energy.

In the first fight, Vegeta SSB was being defeated by Black SSJ.

He would not hit Black SSJ Rosé if he had the same level as before, so he got stronger too

[Miracles]

IIRC, Trunks full power SSJ2 is nearly as strong as Goku's SSJ3. Hence why Goku went god mode for a sec and beat Trunks.
Black's base mode is stronger than Trunks and was pretty easily handling Goku's SSJ2 in the anime. Black wasn't even using full power.
Vegeta did pwn Black in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form while Black was in Super Saiyan. It's logical since Vegeta's two mode is stronger than Goku's three mode [BOG].

[HeroR]

IIRC, Trunks full power SSJ2 is nearly as strong as Goku's SSJ3. Hence why Goku went god mode for a sec and beat Trunks.
Black's base mode is stronger than Trunks and was pretty easily handling Goku's SSJ2 in the anime. Black wasn't even using full power.
Vegeta did pwn Black in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form while Black was in Super Saiyan. It's logical since Vegeta's two mode is stronger than Goku's three mode [BOG].

We really can't bring in the anime when discussing the manga since they used different scales. And Super Saiyan 2 Trunks wasn't handling Goku easily in the anime. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks literally did nothing to Goku and all Goku do was block.

[Miracles]

IIRC, Trunks full power SSJ2 is nearly as strong as Goku's SSJ3. Hence why Goku went god mode for a sec and beat Trunks.
Black's base mode is stronger than Trunks and was pretty easily handling Goku's SSJ2 in the anime. Black wasn't even using full power.
Vegeta did pwn Black in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form while Black was in Super Saiyan. It's logical since Vegeta's two mode is stronger than Goku's three mode [BOG].

We really can't bring in the anime when discussing the manga since they used different scales. And Super Saiyan 2 Trunks wasn't handling Goku easily in the anime. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks literally did nothing to Goku and all Goku do was block.

True. However, Trunks Super Saiyan 2 was in Goku's SSJ3 league in both the anime and manga. Trunks even tells Goku that Black is much stronger than both of them in both the manga and anime. However Trunks didn't know about Goku's god powers. Also, the manga did take into consideration that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than Goku's SSJ3. He overwhelmingly beat up a Super Saiyan Black. Who was stated to be greater than Trunks SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3.

[HeroR]

True. However, Trunks Super Saiyan 2 was in Goku's SSJ3 league in both the anime and manga. Trunks even tells Goku that Black is much stronger than both of them in both the manga and anime. However Trunks didn't know about Goku's god powers. Also, the manga did take into consideration that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than Goku's SSJ3. He overwhelmingly beat up a Super Saiyan Black. Who was stated to be greater than Trunks SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3.

No it wasn't. Trunks got one-shotted by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And the manga never said Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It just had Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black with no explaintion.

[Miracles]

True. However, Trunks Super Saiyan 2 was in Goku's SSJ3 league in both the anime and manga. Trunks even tells Goku that Black is much stronger than both of them in both the manga and anime. However Trunks didn't know about Goku's god powers. Also, the manga did take into consideration that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than Goku's SSJ3. He overwhelmingly beat up a Super Saiyan Black. Who was stated to be greater than Trunks SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3.

No it wasn't. Trunks got one-shotted by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And the manga never said Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It just had Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black with no explaintion.

Trunks still said Black was stronger than both his SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3 in the anime. Same with the manga, stating he was nothing but "fodder" compared to Black. Even with his SSJ2 full power which is "near" Goku's SSJ3 strength. Despite all that, Vegeta bodies Black's Super Saiyan in the manga with his SSJ2. This proves the manga is using Vegeta's BOG movie canon SSJ2 being greater than Goku's SSJ3.

[HeroR]

Trunks still said Black was stronger than both his SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3 in the anime. Same with the manga, stating he was nothing but "fodder" compared to Black. Even with his SSJ2 full power which is "near" Goku's SSJ3 strength. Despite all that, Vegeta bodies Black's Super Saiyan in the manga with his SSJ2. This proves the manga is using Vegeta's BOG movie canon SSJ2 being greater than Goku's SSJ3.

This only proves that the manga has bad scaling since the manga never implied Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was stronger than Trunks'. We didn't even get a line from Trunks about it other than Black should be bodying Vegeta.

[Basako]

Trunks still said Black was stronger than both his SSJ2 full power and Goku's SSJ3 in the anime. Same with the manga, stating he was nothing but "fodder" compared to Black. Even with his SSJ2 full power which is "near" Goku's SSJ3 strength. Despite all that, Vegeta bodies Black's Super Saiyan in the manga with his SSJ2. This proves the manga is using Vegeta's BOG movie canon SSJ2 being greater than Goku's SSJ3.

This only proves that the manga has bad scaling since the manga never implied Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was stronger than Trunks'. We didn't even get a line from Trunks about it other than Black should be bodying Vegeta.

Not only implied, it was showed that Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 against Beerus. Once again showed in the fight aginst Black in this arc. Not everything has to be stated before, after or while happening, but less in this case, because it had already been showed.

The Manga has a pretty good scaling, much better than the anime without a doubt.

[HeroR]

Not only implied, it was showed that Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 against Beerus. Once again showed in the fight aginst Black in this arc. Not everything has to be stated before, after or while happening, but less in this case, because it had already been showed.

The Manga has a pretty good scaling, much better than the anime without a doubt.

If it isn't directly stated, it is just you plugging up a hole with your headcanon. And the manga's scaling is better than the anime, best ongoing joke on this forum.

[Basako]

Not only implied, it was showed that Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 against Beerus. Once again showed in the fight aginst Black in this arc. Not everything has to be stated before, after or while happening, but less in this case, because it had already been showed.

The Manga has a pretty good scaling, much better than the anime without a doubt.

If it isn't directly stated, it is just you plugging up a hole with your headcanon. And the manga's scaling is better than the anime, best ongoing joke on this forum.

You're the one with the headcanon, assuming Vegeta's boost was temporary without any single line to support your claim. I just analyse the facts, Vegeta has been showed as stronger than SS2 Trunks in this fight and before. And I add as an extra the two intense training periods he has had in between, that justify perfectly a power up. Even without that, he already got it against Beerus.

And, again, not everything has to be directly stated when is showed.

[HeroR]

You're the one with the headcanon, assuming Vegeta's boost was temporary without any single line to support your claim. I just analyse the facts, Vegeta has been showed as stronger than SS2 Trunks in this fight and before. And I add as an extra the two intense training periods he has had in between, that justify perfectly a power up. Even without that, he already got it against Beerus.

And, again, not everything has to be directly stated when is showed.

How am I headcanoning. I am using exactly what the manga gave me and the manga never said that Vegeta had a special Super Saiyan 2 form, so why would I assumed he does just because he beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black. All we got is Trunks being shocked about how weak Black was and saying something was wrong. Also, he didn't show a "stronger" Super Saiyan 2 until that moment with Black wasn't explained. So, it your headcanon that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special. If the manga says he kept the rage form, please show tell me what page I can read this.

[OLKv3]

Not only implied, it was showed that Vegeta surpassed Goku's SS3 against Beerus. Once again showed in the fight aginst Black in this arc. Not everything has to be stated before, after or while happening, but less in this case, because it had already been showed.

The Manga has a pretty good scaling, much better than the anime without a doubt.

If it isn't directly stated, it is just you plugging up a hole with your headcanon. And the manga's scaling is better than the anime, best ongoing joke on this forum.

You're the one with the headcanon, assuming Vegeta's boost was temporary without any single line to support your claim. I just analyse the facts, Vegeta has been showed as stronger than SS2 Trunks in this fight and before. And I add as an extra the two intense training periods he has had in between, that justify perfectly a power up. Even without that, he already got it against Beerus.

And, again, not everything has to be directly stated when is showed.

It's funny that he does this, then uses head canon to defend something the anime does. It's like, be consistent with both mediums, don't pick and choose.

[Basako]

You're the one with the headcanon, assuming Vegeta's boost was temporary without any single line to support your claim. I just analyse the facts, Vegeta has been showed as stronger than SS2 Trunks in this fight and before. And I add as an extra the two intense training periods he has had in between, that justify perfectly a power up. Even without that, he already got it against Beerus.

And, again, not everything has to be directly stated when is showed.

How am I headcanoning. I am using exactly what the manga gave me and the manga never said that Vegeta had a special Super Saiyan 2 form, so why would I assumed he does just because he beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black. All we got is Trunks being shocked about how weak Black was and saying something was wrong. Also, he didn't show a "stronger" Super Saiyan 2 until that moment with Black wasn't explained. So, it your headcanon that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special. If the manga says he kept the rage form, please show tell me what page I can read this.

Yes you are headcanoning, twice.

One when you say all what there isn't in the manga has to be filled with the movie. That's your choice, then your headcanon, no statement in or out universe confirm this in any way and there are plenty in universe differences that make this belief problematic. I don't even fill the gap of RoF with its manga and it's the same author. As far as I know, what it's confirmed about it is what the narrator and characters confirmed.

The second, not a single line in the three separate continuities, movie, anime and manga, state that Vegeta's boost was temporary. So it's at most a theory and considering it confirmed is headcanon. Much more after we get another confirmation against Black that he has a stronger SS2 than others.

It's not headcanon Vegeta being stronger than Goku SS3 and, consequently, than Trunks SS2, because it had happened before. Now we get a second time, confirmed by facts.

It's funny that he does this, then uses head canon to defend something the anime does. It's like, be consistent with both mediums, don't pick and choose.

It really is, most of his accusations reflect on him so obviously. Or his complains about the manga in the anime.

[Abra kadabra]

Vegeta's Ssj2 being stronger than SSJ3 permanently is a headcannon. If the rage boost was permanent did anyone explain why it was or what it was without headcannon? No. Trunks notes that Vegeta shouldn't be working black like that and nothing comes of it, Toyotaro just writes past it. That's bad powerscaling that retroactively give BOG bad powerscaling

[Basako]

Vegeta's Ssj2 being stronger than SSJ3 permanently is a headcannon. If the rage boost was permanent did anyone explain why it was or what it was without headcannon? No. Trunks notes that Vegeta shouldn't be working black like that and nothing comes of it, Toyotaro just writes past it. That's bad powerscaling that retroactively give BOG bad powerscaling

Did anyone explain it was temporary? Nope. The thing is, Vegeta shows in the fight against Black that he had that power again, giving us more reasons to believe it was permanent rather than temporary.

The manga power scaling is consistent between the Beerus arc and this arc. Only headcanon can refute it and that's not a valid prove.

[emperior]

I noticed Goku and Vegeta lose their potara once the fusion wears off in Toyotaro's manga. This contradicts the original manga where Goku and Vegeta still wore potaras when they defused, as it happens in Super anime. It seems like to fuse again you either have to take the potara off and put it on again (maybe put it on the other ear), or maybe wait sometime before you can fuse again.

This is quite a error from Toyotaro. Toei have been much smarter in that case, as they had Zamasu punch Goku and Vegeta so hard no one wondered why they didn't fuse again.