"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[alakazam^]

Also, creating a double standard and justifying it with, "MAIN PRODUCT," doesn't work. The manga is a 100% canon continuation and holds just as much validity as the anime counterpart.

I never said it didn't.

What I meant by main product is that the anime is the go-to for games, merchandise and discussion and, as far as we know, it's meant to be like that. This is why you can't turn it around because hardly anyone discussing the anime feels the need to mention the manga and the same doesn't appear possible if the focus is the manga.

Well yeah. Because people get so upset at the prospect of someone not liking the anime or video game or movie they like, because they take it as an implied smear at themselves. So they hide behind "objectivity" in order to dismiss any criticism so they don't get their feelings hurt. That's all it is.

Because the anime sucks.

Thanks for that.

[PFM18]

Wait, did this turn into an anime vs manga discussion AGAIN??

It's an objectively poorly run show, the writing is embarrassingly bad, etc. These are all facts.

Oh God. This again?

These are not "all facts" They are just your interpretation/opinion of the events, and hiding behind the excuse of it having some early pre-production problems to make "objective claims" about things that are inherently subjective. Did it have some pre-production problems at some point? Sure. Does this mean that it is a fact that the writing is embarrassingly bad and anybody who likes it likes "bottom of the barrel fan service"? No, absolutely not. Dumbest shit I've ever heard on this site. It is akin to the common internet trope of "Yeah well, if you like this then you're stupid" that plagues sites across the web.

Your opinion is not a fact. Period. End of story.

[Dragon Wukong]

I mean, art-wise Toyotaro is better than Buu-saga Toriyama, IMO.

I'm prepared for the incoming replies telling me I'm wrong, but Buu-saga Toriyama wasn't polished at all.

It’s not like Boo arc Toriyama is unpolished or unrefined. His paneling and compositions were as great as they’ve ever been. I don’t know where this notion of Boo arc Toriyama somehow being worse at his job came from. Fights aren’t nearly as long as they were prior, but the art is still quite strong.

In terms of art (disregarding composition/paneling issues) I believe Toyotaro is better than Buu saga Toriyama.

In preparation for more hate though, now that you mention fights in particular, I think the Fused Zamasu battle in the manga tops any of the Buu saga fights in the manga.

[Liquir]

Toyotaro uploaded on twitter an image from his shelf, where a Goku framed picture is shown, signed by Toriyama..

Spoiler:

[Son-Kakaroto]

Toyotaro uploaded on twitter an image from his shelf, where a Goku framed picture is shown, signed by Toriyama..

Spoiler:

Looks like a 23 budokai - sayain saga goku.

[shadowfox87]

Don't open this spoiler unless you want to be spoiled for the DBS Movie (it has to do with the manga):

Spoiler:

First, based on KenXyro who has seen the movie premiere, there is no Kaioken Blue in the movie! This is HUGE! What does this mean? It means that the DBS Minus manga and the DBS Super manga were used primarily for this movie even when Toriyama's involvement was more than any movie in history. Kaioken was one of the things exclusive to the anime that didn't happen in the manga. SSG Vegeta also already existed in the DBS Manga and has never been shown in the DBS Super anime.

Second, Bardock did confront Freeza in space just before he died. This makes DBS Minus completely consistent with Chapter 307 of the original DBZ manga where Freeza showed a flashback of Bardock in space. This was the only thing in the DBS Minus manga that we didn't see. All other things don't contradict at all with the original DB Manga!

i.e. if anyone still cares about the canon debate between anime vs manga, this movie I think basically settled it.

[kudo6000]

Spoiler:

I want to see if the ToP flashbacks in the beginning of the film showcase what happened in the manga or anime.

[IM21]

Spoiler:

I want to see if the ToP flashbacks in the beginning of the film showcase what happened in the manga or anime.

Spoiler:

i believe it won't really show what was going on, but it will just show the characters who were fighting.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Don't open this spoiler unless you want to be spoiled for the DBS Movie (it has to do with the manga):

Spoiler:

First, based on KenXyro who has seen the movie premiere, there is no Kaioken Blue in the movie! This is HUGE! What does this mean? It means that the DBS Minus manga and the DBS Super manga were used primarily for this movie even when Toriyama's involvement was more than any movie in history. Kaioken was one of the things exclusive to the anime that didn't happen in the manga. SSG Vegeta also already existed in the DBS Manga and has never been shown in the DBS Super anime.

Second, Bardock did confront Freeza in space just before he died. This makes DBS Minus completely consistent with Chapter 307 of the original DBZ manga where Freeza showed a flashback of Bardock in space. This was the only thing in the DBS Minus manga that we didn't see. All other things don't contradict at all with the original DB Manga!

i.e. if anyone still cares about the canon debate between anime vs manga, this movie I think basically settled it.

Hold your horses there, bub. This movie is a continuation of AKIRAS dbs story in all likehood. So his first two movies, his unseen skelton notes of all the arcs then this movie. He probably put ssj god vegeta in, because he liked toyotaro's idea and wanted to incorporate into his story. Hence, why he "supervised" vegeta's use of ssj god in dbs manga chp 22.

[superfan2024]

Don't open this spoiler unless you want to be spoiled for the DBS Movie (it has to do with the manga):

Spoiler:

First, based on KenXyro who has seen the movie premiere, there is no Kaioken Blue in the movie! This is HUGE! What does this mean? It means that the DBS Minus manga and the DBS Super manga were used primarily for this movie even when Toriyama's involvement was more than any movie in history. Kaioken was one of the things exclusive to the anime that didn't happen in the manga. SSG Vegeta also already existed in the DBS Manga and has never been shown in the DBS Super anime.

Second, Bardock did confront Freeza in space just before he died. This makes DBS Minus completely consistent with Chapter 307 of the original DBZ manga where Freeza showed a flashback of Bardock in space. This was the only thing in the DBS Minus manga that we didn't see. All other things don't contradict at all with the original DB Manga!

i.e. if anyone still cares about the canon debate between anime vs manga, this movie I think basically settled it.

Hold your horses there, bub. This movie is a continuation of AKIRAS dbs story in all likehood. So his first two movies, his unseen skelton notes of all the arcs then this movie. He probably put ssj god vegeta in, because he liked toyotaro's idea and wanted to incorporate into his story. Hence, why he "supervised" vegeta's use of ssj god in dbs manga chp 22.

Agreed. This movie is Toriyama's own story. It doesn't have to include specific elements from either the anime or the manga. Mind the rest of you, the anime and manga of Super are both expansions from Toriyama's outlines. Of course they're going to add stuff that Toriyama probably doesn't really care too much about.

[Miracles]

Yea, Toriyama is the definition of Canon, authority. Whatever he writes trumps over TOEI and Toyotaro.

[TKA]

Hold your horses there, bub. This movie is a continuation of AKIRAS dbs story in all likehood. So his first two movies, his unseen skelton notes of all the arcs then this movie. He probably put ssj god vegeta in, because he liked toyotaro's idea and wanted to incorporate into his story. Hence, why he "supervised" vegeta's use of ssj god in dbs manga chp 22.

I'm fairly sure the person you replied to was simply saying the manga took precedence over the anime since it more closely aligns with the film.

And that's to be expected. Toriyama works closely with Toyotaro and edits the manga himself (vetoes ideas he doesn't like, rewrites things on occasion, makes suggestions etc). That's the version of the story he's most familiar with, so that's the one that was probably in his head as he was writing this film.

It's not rocket surgery.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Exactly.

I'm fairly sure the person you replied to was simply saying the manga took precedence over the anime since it more closely aligns with the film.

And that's to be expected. Toriyama works closely with Toyotaro and edits the manga himself (vetoes ideas he doesn't like, rewrites things on occasion, makes suggestions etc). That's the version of the story he's most familiar with, so that's the one that was probably in his head as he was writing this film.

It's not rocket surgery.

if you are talking about jaco manga or orginal db manga, then sure. If you mean toyotaro's manga, then unlikely. Toriyama, with I assume help of shueisha advisers, crafted his own original story following the events of the ToP. It just so happens he probably used a concept from toyotaro's manga (ssj god vegeta) because it pleased him to do so, but this movie story is his own work and neither toei's adaption or toyotaro's adaption had he any loyalty to.

[Shaddy]

Y'all know it's not really hard to come up with the idea of Super Saiyan God Vegeta, right? What is with this assumption that oh, TOYOTARO INVENTED GOD VEGETA because it's such an original concept that nobody has been drawing thousands of fanart pictures of for the last five years? I've seen God Vegetas, God Gohans, God-forsaken God Bardocks (ew), it's everywhere.

Better theory: Toriyama wrote the movie and used his own notes, and either BOTH the manga AND the anime for reference, or NEITHER of them. All this "he used the manga!" stuff is just trying to prop up one version of the story as "more relevant" than another to act as if that makes it better.

[Rakurai]

Y'all know it's not really hard to come up with the idea of Super Saiyan God Vegeta, right? What is with this assumption that oh, TOYOTARO INVENTED GOD VEGETA because it's such an original concept that nobody has been drawing thousands of fanart pictures of for the last five years? I've seen God Vegetas, God Gohans, God-forsaken God Bardocks (ew), it's everywhere.

Better theory: Toriyama wrote the movie and used his own notes, and either BOTH the manga AND the anime for reference, or NEITHER of them. All this "he used the manga!" stuff is just trying to prop up one version of the story as "more relevant" than another to act as if that makes it better.

Toriyama credits SSG Vegeta to Toyotarou in the Vol. 4 interview.

Contrary to what you just said, there are possibilities: he could use both, or neither, or only one of them as reference.

Anyways, why are people so stubborn to refuse the idea that Toriyama might actually use the manga more than the anime for reference? He literally checks over all the chapters. The idea has precedence, and he did include SSG Vegeta even though the form should be completely unnecessary like KK or SSBE. This isn't about anime vs manga debates, it's about how Toriyama thinks.

And to be clear. If I were told that every episode script of Super went through Toriyama, then I'd believe he would use the anime for reference just the same.

[TKA]

if you are talking about jaco manga or orginal db manga, then sure. If you mean toyotaro's manga, then unlikely. Toriyama, with I assume help of shueisha advisers, crafted his own original story following the events of the ToP. It just so happens he probably used a concept from toyotaro's manga (ssj god vegeta) because it pleased him to do so, but this movie story is his own work and neither toei's adaption or toyotaro's adaption had he any loyalty to.

It's been stated numerous times that Toriyama oversees the manga directly. There's interviews of the two of them stating this. There's volume bonuses that show where Toriyama redrew things. There's statements explaining particular ideas Toriyama shot down and ideas he inserted. It's literally all out there and provable.

That Toyotaro meets with Shueisha and crafts a story with them, is uncorroborated. Completely so. While it most likely happens since Dragonball is a brand first and foremost, there's much less evidence saying it happens than there's evidence pointing to what I mentioned.

Also, you're still fundamentally missing the point.

The point was the Super manga is reflected more in the movie than the anime. That's logical and to be expected given that Toriyama works closer with Toyotaro than he does the anime, and this movie was entirely Toriyama.

[Son-Kakaroto]

if you are talking about jaco manga or orginal db manga, then sure. If you mean toyotaro's manga, then unlikely. Toriyama, with I assume help of shueisha advisers, crafted his own original story following the events of the ToP. It just so happens he probably used a concept from toyotaro's manga (ssj god vegeta) because it pleased him to do so, but this movie story is his own work and neither toei's adaption or toyotaro's adaption had he any loyalty to.

It's been stated numerous times that Toriyama oversees the manga directly. There's interviews of the two of them stating this. There's volume bonuses that show where Toriyama redrew things. There's statements explaining particular ideas Toriyama shot down and ideas he inserted. It's literally all out there and provable.

That Toyotaro meets with Shueisha and crafts a story with them, is uncorroborated. Completely so. While it most likely happens since Dragonball is a brand first and foremost, there's much less evidence saying it happens than there's evidence pointing to what I mentioned.

Also, you're still fundamentally missing the point.

The point was the Super manga is reflected more in the movie than the anime. That's logical and to be expected given that Toriyama works closer with Toyotaro than he does the anime, and this movie was entirely Toriyama.

Your first like 3 paragraph were litterally pointless to discussion at hand.
Idk what you mean by "reflected". The only "manga-only" thing in this movie is "ssj god" vegeta. The rest of the movie has stuff from manga and anime. It's toriyama story which has little to do with toyotaro or what he did in the manga.
You keep reiterating the fact that toriyama works more "closley" with toyotaro. Okay....? cool? Does not matter for discussion at hand, toyotaro is going to do his own iteration of broly's story which I think will be better then the movie since it'll go more in-depth (3 HOURS of material toriyama wrote. He'll be dumping that on toyotaro's head in which he could even expand!) and actually have blood in the fight. With that said, this movie has little to do or with toyotaro's manga and more to do with akiras version of super. End of story, arguing more is just unnecessarily wanking the manga which has produced a disappointment of an ToP arc.

[Marlowe89]

Co-signing what TKA and Rakurai said. Toyotaro's adaptation may not be purely Toriyama, but given how extensive and well-documented his involvement actually is with the manga as a whole (from art and storytelling to gags and even minute details with characterization) in addition to the idiosyncrasies present in the writing, I'm absolutely certain that it's a much closer approximation to Toriyama's vision than the anime tends to be.

Toriyama credits SSG Vegeta to Toyotarou in the Vol. 4 interview.

A magazine ad for the movie also specifically credits the manga for the form's debut under Vegeta, so I have no clue why people feel the need to downplay its role as an exclusive influence there.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Co-signing what TKA and Rakurai said. Toyotaro's version may not be purely Toriyama, but given how extensive and well-documented his involvement actually is with the manga as a whole (from art and storytelling to gags and even minute details with characterization) in addition to the idiosyncrasies present in the writing, I'm still pretty certain that it's a much closer approximation to Toriyama's vision than the anime tends to be.

Toriyama credits SSG Vegeta to Toyotarou in the Vol. 4 interview.

A magazine ad for the movie also specifically credits the manga for the form's debut under Vegeta, so I have no clue why people feel the need to downplay its role as an exclusive influence there.

You co-sign what they said but then make an irrelevant conclusion point by saying,

I'm still pretty certain that it's a much closer approximation to Toriyama's vision than the anime tends to be.

The discussion isn't about if dbs manga is closer to toriyama script - it's if toriyama used dbs manga as an guide to writing his movie - which he didn't. I get you guys are a big fan of toyotaro, but this constant repetition of "Dbs manga is closer to toriyama! dbs manga is closer to toriyama! dbs manga is closer to toriyama!" is little nauseating when you bring it up to prove it a point it has little to do with. I toriyama, evidently, barley uses his own manga as reference - WHY THE F&CK WOULD HE USE TOYOTARO MANGA as reference? Goodness.

[Zephyr]

Co-signing what TKA and Rakurai said. Toyotaro's adaptation may not be purely Toriyama, but given how extensive and well-documented his involvement actually is with the manga as a whole (from art and storytelling to gags and even minute details with characterization) in addition to the idiosyncrasies present in the writing, I'm absolutely certain that it's a much closer approximation to Toriyama's vision than the anime tends to be.

Toriyama credits SSG Vegeta to Toyotarou in the Vol. 4 interview.

A magazine ad for the movie also specifically credits the manga for the form's debut under Vegeta, so I have no clue why people feel the need to downplay its role as an exclusive influence there.

Count me in the same boat. Toriyama's obviously going to do his own thing, and this film should be no exception. There's no reason to suggest that he based the film off of the manga's version of the events.

However, it also warrants observing that, outside of the now three films, there is no "Toriyama's version" of these stories. His unpublished production notes and guidelines are not stories. Based on what we know of his involvement with the manga, and what we know about the film, we can make an inference to the best explanation that, were we to choose between the two actually available and realized stories that cover these events, the manga's are probably a better (read: not perfect or 1:1) representation and manifestation of what was swimming around in his head while coming up with the story of the Broly film. In this sense, the manga's story would probably better prepare someone for the film's story than the anime's story would.

None of that entails that the anime is bad, or that watching the anime leading up to the film is un-viable, or that there's somehow no way he took any ideas from the anime, or anything like that. Not sure why acknowledging any of this strikes such a large nerve for some people. If it's because the fandom is so collectively high-strung and tense over excessive, toxic, "Manga vs Anime" flamewars, then it's probably worth taking a break from Dragon Ball discourse online. It's done wonders for me.