"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

Happy New Year, everyone. I guess it's time I got around to talking about the newest chapter.

Molo/Moro
When the images of Moro vs the Dai Kaioshin started leaking, I was honestly a bit nervous. I know some people really enjoy and miss the edgier parts of Dragon Ball, but in the hands of Toyotaro, I didn't know how it would turn out. In the full chapter, I'm happy to say "so far, so good". I also really like the grey backdrop of space in this part of the chapter. It makes it feel distinct. I will say, it took me a moment to accept that the Galactic Patrol has been functioning as an organization for so long, but I think it's worth it to allow the rest of the story to unfold.

Galactic Patrol HQ
In the last chapter, I was concerned with how empty the Galactic Patrol headquarters looked. That concern was premature, because in this chapter, that's not an issue at all. You've got weirdos moving in-and-out, and a bunch of great gags. It would've been cool to at least see Vegeta in a Galactic Patrollman uniform, but I knew that was too much to ask. I'll bet that Toyo will draw the crew in-uniform for an in-between-chapter image.

The Heist
As long as this arc isn't full of moments like this, I'm happy with it. It's great to be getting more Jaco. The most significant thing this scene accomplished was showing that when Merus got the slip on Vegeta/Goku, wasn't a matter of catching anyone off-guard. This is why prematurely freaking out over leaks or barely-revealed plot points is a mistake. I'm genuinely curious about the nature of his abilities.

I actually quite like Merus' character design. As for the color version, I think the red of his watch/belt really clashes with the rest of the colors.

A great start to the arc overall. I'm happy to read/hear that so many people seem to be happy with the direction of the arc. Hopefully the absent shadow of the anime will help eliminate some of the negativity that has plagued the DBS manga discussion since the beginning. I'm aware of my perception as a Toyotaro fanboy in this thread, but I'm just as nervous about him taking the reigns as anyone else. I care about Toriyama's work overall, so if Toyotaro can continue channeling his creative spirit properly, hopefully we'll end up with something that most people can enjoy.

As has been the case thus far, it seems that Super is just refurbishing any half-way decent idea that Toriyama didn't come up with since the manga ended. In this arc, we can clearly see Toriyama-fied versions of concepts from the Tree of Might, Bojack, and GT.

Also, this chapter was the final nail in the coffin for my fanfic that I have been lazily thinking about for the past couple of years. I'll spoiler-tag that for anyone who's curious:

Spoiler:

When the Universe 6 tournament arc started, I was left wondering "with all of the gods and most powerful fighters off-duty, would earth be left vulnerable?" Obviously, this was not the case, but I decided to imagine the possibilities. Here is my outline.

-Gohan, about to give a presentation at a conference, is forced to deal with the conflict.
-No. 17 is called upon by Kaio to help. (should have been Dende in retrospect)
-The villain is an escaped prisoner of the Galactic Patrol.
-The villain is strong, but his most dangerous weapon is is psychic ability.
-While you might expect that he chose to strike because Goku or Beerus was away, he actually took the opportunity because the Galactic King was away. The villain is the Galactic King's brother who wants revenge for some petty reason and managed to get dangerously powerful in prison. He mistakenly believes that the Galactic King is the most powerful fighter in the universe.
-Exposition through Kaio, Dende, and miscellaneous Galactic Patrolmen (including a Jaya ripoff).
-Yajirobe shows up and helps somehow.
-A member of the Three-eye Clan is a member of the GP and is killed by the villain when he escapes prison. This is my most shameless fanboy inclusion.
-The conflict climaxes when the villain is defeated but possesses Dende as a last-ditch effort. Gods have the ability to eradicate humanity, so the villain summons a meteor storm. Gohan and No. 17 frantically block all meteors for the finale.
-Gohan returns to the conference and continues his presentation.

Well...that's pretty much all in Super at this point. Here an image I created a couple of months ago. RIP.

[Miracles]

Is this actually in Super? If it was a flashback why wouldn't Toyotaro use the past art? Even if it's a blatant copy, I'll drink to Toyotaro. The guy is smart enough to copy Toriyama, arguably the best who ever done it and all this does is strengthen Toyotaro's art skills.

Happy New Year everyone!

Happy new year !!!
Nah that’s not in super , don’t get fool , they just took an old page of nameck arc and change gokus faces adding some toyo expression and some anime texts. Kind of a stupid meme to tell new dragon ball super suck I guess .. the guy who posted it gets offended if you ask the reason for him to post this fake .. so let’s asume it’s just stupidity mixed with some reality to make some laughs

Oh, thanks for informing me. So, it was just a fake image to take a cheap shot at Toyotaro.

Edit: Saw TKA post...Appreciate the heads up guys. I fell for it. lol...

[TheNingen]

I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this new arc. I really hope Moro isn't squandered and that he's an actual interesting villain and not just "I like eating worlds and gaining power lul" and I can't help but shake the feeling that Merus isn't a good guy but is just a cover agent for Moro or something considering we're just now being introduced to him. I hope this isn't a case of my love of movies and a surprise villain being someone you've already been introduced to coloring my lenses while reading the chapters.

That being said, while I remain cautiously optimistic about the arc, I can't say I've been too impressed with the manga as a whole. While I do love the anime, and do like many parts of the manga, many aspects of the manga have fallen flat for me (which I've already seen debated about ad nasuem so I won't open up that can of worms again). Also, since it's been established that Daikaishin's powers were used to seal away Moro's powers, maybe Super Saiyan God will actually play a pivotal role again outside of beating up a poor goat man Galactus thing.

[prince212]

Also, this chapter was the final nail in the coffin for my fanfic that I have been lazily thinking about for the past couple of years. I'll spoiler-tag that for anyone who's curious:

Spoiler:

When the Universe 6 tournament arc started, I was left wondering "with all of the gods and most powerful fighters off-duty, would earth be left vulnerable?" Obviously, this was not the case, but I decided to imagine the possibilities. Here is my outline.

-Gohan, about to give a presentation at a conference, is forced to deal with the conflict.
-No. 17 is called upon by Kaio to help. (should have been Dende in retrospect)
-The villain is an escaped prisoner of the Galactic Patrol.
-The villain is strong, but his most dangerous weapon is is psychic ability.
-While you might expect that he chose to strike because Goku or Beerus was away, he actually took the opportunity because the Galactic King was away. The villain is the Galactic King's brother who wants revenge for some petty reason and managed to get dangerously powerful in prison. He mistakenly believes that the Galactic King is the most powerful fighter in the universe.
-Exposition through Kaio, Dende, and miscellaneous Galactic Patrolmen (including a Jaya ripoff).
-Yajirobe shows up and helps somehow.
-A member of the Three-eye Clan is a member of the GP and is killed by the villain when he escapes prison. This is my most shameless fanboy inclusion.
-The conflict climaxes when the villain is defeated but possesses Dende as a last-ditch effort. Gods have the ability to eradicate humanity, so the villain summons a meteor storm. Gohan and No. 17 frantically block all meteors for the finale.
-Gohan returns to the conference and continues his presentation.

Well...that's pretty much all in Super at this point. Here an image I created a couple of months ago. RIP.

Man , if you came up with the escaped prisoner and the meteors before this new arc. was released , you are a serious candidate to be the next oracle fish.
Anyways, it’s original . I can tell we need more of other characters, the goku - vegeta focus is being overused , and keeps on going ... that’s why I’d like them to be defeat next chapter and somebody else deal with Moro ... I’ll be good if they are in the final moment and buu doesn’t have anyother option to eat them as chocolate or absorb them before Moro kill them ...
That way he’ll get an awesome powerup and our heroes stay alive ...

[Gyt Kaliba]

Also, this chapter was the final nail in the coffin for my fanfic that I have been lazily thinking about for the past couple of years. I'll spoiler-tag that for anyone who's curious:

Spoiler:

When the Universe 6 tournament arc started, I was left wondering "with all of the gods and most powerful fighters off-duty, would earth be left vulnerable?" Obviously, this was not the case, but I decided to imagine the possibilities. Here is my outline.

-Gohan, about to give a presentation at a conference, is forced to deal with the conflict.
-No. 17 is called upon by Kaio to help. (should have been Dende in retrospect)
-The villain is an escaped prisoner of the Galactic Patrol.
-The villain is strong, but his most dangerous weapon is is psychic ability.
-While you might expect that he chose to strike because Goku or Beerus was away, he actually took the opportunity because the Galactic King was away. The villain is the Galactic King's brother who wants revenge for some petty reason and managed to get dangerously powerful in prison. He mistakenly believes that the Galactic King is the most powerful fighter in the universe.
-Exposition through Kaio, Dende, and miscellaneous Galactic Patrolmen (including a Jaya ripoff).
-Yajirobe shows up and helps somehow.
-A member of the Three-eye Clan is a member of the GP and is killed by the villain when he escapes prison. This is my most shameless fanboy inclusion.
-The conflict climaxes when the villain is defeated but possesses Dende as a last-ditch effort. Gods have the ability to eradicate humanity, so the villain summons a meteor storm. Gohan and No. 17 frantically block all meteors for the finale.
-Gohan returns to the conference and continues his presentation.

Well...that's pretty much all in Super at this point. Here an image I created a couple of months ago. RIP.

Trust me, I know your pain. I've had my post-Z fanfic on hiatus basically ever since Resurrection 'F' because I want it to still fit with everything if I can make it work, so basically...it's stuck on either eternal hiatus until we're no longer getting stuff, or until the series does something that makes my idea not possibly work within "canon" anymore so I'm forced to choose at what point the "canon" ends before it shifts to my story.

[Darkseid]

Trust me, I know your pain. I've had my post-Z fanfic on hiatus basically ever since Resurrection 'F' because I want it to still fit with everything if I can make it work, so basically...it's stuck on either eternal hiatus until we're no longer getting stuff, or until the series does something that makes my idea not possibly work within "canon" anymore so I'm forced to choose at what point the "canon" ends before it shifts to my story.

I'm following Toriyama on this. There are simply different/ alternate universes where Goku and Crew go through their adventures. One for the Original Manga, one for DBZ, one for GT, one for Super as well as several where the various movies/games happen. With all the inconsitensies, retcons and new stuff/lore being added its simpler (and easier on the mind) to see them as seperate continuities.

[BWri]

Molo/Moro
I will say, it took me a moment to accept that the Galactic Patrol has been functioning as an organization for so long, but I think it's worth it to allow the rest of the story to unfold.

It is strange that they've been around so long and still have virtually no presence in the universe. It doesn't really work with the history of Dragon Ball when you think about it. They're not Kais but you'd think they'd have more info about the universe, about concepts such as ki. I guess it depends on how long Cold/Frieza's empire has been operating for me to not see this as another blatant retcon.

[batistabus]

Molo/Moro
I will say, it took me a moment to accept that the Galactic Patrol has been functioning as an organization for so long, but I think it's worth it to allow the rest of the story to unfold.

It is strange that they've been around so long and still have virtually no presence in the universe. It doesn't really work with the history of Dragon Ball when you think about it. They're not Kais but you'd think they'd have more info about the universe, about concepts such as ki. I guess it depends on how long Cold/Frieza's empire has been operating for me to not see this as another blatant retcon.

No matter how you look at it, this is a blatant retcon. That's not my problem, and blatant retcons are certainly nothing new to Dragon Ball. My issue is that a seemingly incompetent human organization has existed for one MILLION years. No organization on earth has survived a fraction of that, but since were not talking about earth, that's where the suspension of disbelief comes in. The Kaioshin are pretty incompetent as well, but being gods who live for eons, it's not as much of a stretch in my view.

Also, while they're not aware of ki in the intimate spiritual sense that the earthlings are, they are aware of flying, ki blasts, etc. just as the Freeza army is. They just don't seem as good at drawing in that sort of talent as Freeza. Between threats and a supposedly great benefits package, it seems understandable.

Anyway, like most concepts introduced in Dragon Ball, we're only told enough to understand what's happening here and now. There could be a reasonable explanation for the organization existing for so long, especially if they have the support of the Kaioshin.

[Rakurai]

You’ve got your point , still my interpretation is different, it’s ok .
Concerning trunks last visit to the main timeline ... indirectly he’s creating a new parallel world where Zamasu don’t kill goku , if trunks don’t come to tell about it , Beerus don’t kill zamasu before he wish for gokus body...

Then we will just agree to disagree.

In the end, I believe FTrunks & Mai leaving the present timeline for another was not necessary and showed they had not learned from FTrunks' own mistakes.

Trunks doesn't deserve victim blaming here (Something Vegeta even says it's nonsense when Black tries it in the anime), it was Zamasu and Black who destroyed his universe, not Trunks, blaming him for this is like blaming Goku for King Piccolo, saiyans rampaging on Earth, Namek's destruction, Androids, and Freeza coming to Earth twice, in which in all of those it's because of him they showed up, but it was indirect and neither Trunks or Goku had the intention for those things to happen.

And yes, I know that Goku blamed himself for other villains showing up at the end of Cell saga, but that was jus stupid, and he had to ignore that he saved the world from Red Ribbon Army and even helped people along the way.

I also don't see how Trunks' past experiences would mean he shouldn't time travel anymore, it was thanks to time traveling that he managed to save his world from the androids to begin with, and Babidi as well, so if anything, what Black would've taught him is that time traveling can fuck him up too, not that time traveling is this thing that only brings bad experiences.

And Trunks' reasoning is the same in both anime and manga, Whis tells him he can go to another timeline to live there, and Trunks is okay with it, and for the anime, all Gohan did was cheer him on.

Ofc FTrunks doesn't deserve the victim-blaming but his time travelling essentially created a butterfly effect that led to the literal end of his own timeline, the exact worst-case scenario. His time travelling saved the main timeline Goku, but as a result also enabled Zamasu to take an interest in him. If Goku had naturally died, the Earth might've been doomed because of the Androids but then there would be less of a chance of Buu resurrecting and most likely no Zamasu takeover.

It's the ramifications of time-travelling that matter, whether FTrunks intended to cause them or not.

It's a bit late, but happy new Year everyone! Here's to better and more interesting DB stories in the future.

[Lukmendes]

Ofc FTrunks doesn't deserve the victim-blaming but his time travelling essentially created a butterfly effect that led to the literal end of his own timeline, the exact worst-case scenario. His time travelling saved the main timeline Goku, but as a result also enabled Zamasu to take an interest in him. If Goku had naturally died, the Earth might've been doomed because of the Androids but then there would be less of a chance of Buu resurrecting and most likely no Zamasu takeover.

It's the ramifications of time-travelling that matter, whether FTrunks intended to cause them or not.

It's a bit late, but happy new Year everyone! Here's to better and more interesting DB stories in the future.

Without time traveling, eventualy Shin would be killed by Dabura, which by proxy would kill Beerus, and even if they weren't killed, without Goku and a redeemed 17, 8 universes would've been erased permanently because Zeno is a douche.

Time traveling has brought both good and bad for the characters, it's not because the bad happened that the good should be ignored, it's as much of a wild card as the dragon balls.

[Lionel]

How many timelines exist now? Five? I think two of them were doomed to extinction thanks to the actions of Zamasu. One had its cyborg menaces deactivated and the ultimate bio-mechanical organism that Gero created shifted to the realm where the cast we follow lives. They may have had an opportunity to rebuild at least until the remnants of the Planet Trade Organisation appear and realise the vulnerability of its population. I don't think there's enough information to understand what the ultimate fate was for the unseen timeline where the Trunks who used the remote got the blueprints from was.

If you're going to summarise the positive versus negative aspects of the time traveling endeavour then it could be said that three timelines benefited while two others were condemned. My opinion is that Earth being sacrificed so as to contain the ripple effect that would inevitably ensue from dabbling in chrono-manipulation is a small price to pay. On the other hand, we can't forget about Cell's inevitable emergence. If no one is available to stop him and he absorbs the cyborgs then the universe is doomed anyway. I want to say that Shin and Kibito could handle him but we've seen what the track records of those who use psychic and magical abilities are like. I'm not even sure if Toriyama recalls the calibre of ki ability he made Shin demonstrate early on during the 25th tournament and Babidi sub-arcs.

[BWri]

No matter how you look at it, this is a blatant retcon.

True and my problem would be if its immersion breaking or not. If it began to call too much attention to itself without a good in-universe answer, it'd become problematic to me.

That's not my problem, and blatant retcons are certainly nothing new to Dragon Ball.

Fair enough, and true.

My issue is that a seemingly incompetent human organization has existed for one MILLION years. No organization on earth has survived a fraction of that, but since were not talking about earth, that's where the suspension of disbelief comes in.

That's the immersion breaking part I mentioned above, so it looks like you and I would potentially have the same problem with this. For me a few throwaway lines about Cold's reign forcing the GP into hiding in remote areas of the galaxy would rectify most of the problems with the retcon. Enough that it doesn't bother me anyway. I'd still have to wonder how an organization that's been around for so long doesn't properly know about ki or how to use it, but I'd get over it.

The Kaioshin are pretty incompetent as well, but being gods who live for eons, it's not as much of a stretch in my view.

Yeah, especially since it was only Shin by himself for so long.

Also, while they're not aware of ki in the intimate spiritual sense that the earthlings are, they are aware of flying, ki blasts, etc. just as the Freeza army is. They just don't seem as good at drawing in that sort of talent as Freeza. Between threats and a supposedly great benefits package, it seems understandable.

I'm halfway with you on this, but I guess I could buy the angle that an organization that's actively trying to avoid and undermine Frieza's empire would not have the resources to recruit the best fighters. Those with strength would likely be attracted to the Frieza forces. And most of those guys have blasters anyway, buuuuuuuuut seems like every generic Frieza soldier can fly which requires ki which kinda kills it for me that the GP require boosters to do the same thing when they (should) have more galactic knowledge and if they deal with Kai's, more spiritual knowledge. Likely, they should be more like the Green Lantern core. Not a big deal though, I'm already over it.

Anyway, like most concepts introduced in Dragon Ball, we're only told enough to understand what's happening here and now. There could be a reasonable explanation for the organization existing for so long, especially if they have the support of the Kaioshin.

I'm sure we'll get more info about it. It'll likely be bare minimum, stuff directly relating to the plot and some random asides knowing Toriyama-san.

[Shineman]

I think that entire part wasn't that interesting in the first place since it feels... slow? I don't know how to put it into words

It feels that way because it's an extraneous setpiece, unfortunately.

Pretty setpieces mean nothing to me if they contribute nothing to the plot. Setpieces justify their existence when they move the story forward. Good action setpieces enhance the story's central themes and characterization. Truth is, there's a whole lot of nothing going on in this chapter.

Also, Merus is the personification of "*teleports behind you* nothing personal, kid". He's such a thoroughly uninteresting character. Jaco is an interesting character, so Jaco being there at all makes Merus look awfully mundane so far. Why would I be interested in a progression-killing train heist that doesn't establish anything about this amazing elite patrolman if I'm only enjoying Goku and Jaco's antics in the background, even when the main focus of that scene is supposed to be the guy whose only appeal is his superficial competence?

Anyway, it should get better since the characters are actually pursuing Moro now. Toyotaro is great when he's pushing towards things with real significance.

Yep. You perfectly describes how I felt in this chapter.

I hope this doesn't continue, because anything with Jaco is A-OK in my book; I just want more than a bunch of nothing in a chapter to describe how awesome a character is.

[Noitsnothim]

So...how would you guys feel if Goku gave up his God Ki? and only Vegeta was left with it

it looks like they could be going in that Direction and making Ultra Instinct Goku's main Goal (He could still obtain it even without God Ki) Actually come to think of it Maybe God Ki holds him back in some ways

[emperior]

So...how would you guys feel if Goku gave up his God Ki? and only Vegeta was left with it

it looks like they could be going in that Direction and making Ultra Instinct Goku's main Goal (He could still obtain it even without God Ki) Actually come to think of it Maybe God Ki holds him back in some ways

I don’t think it would make sense for Goku to be stripped off his God ki. That’s something he trained to master, it would be like having him suddenly forget how to go Super Saiyan.

[TKA]

I don’t think it would make sense for Goku to be stripped off his God ki. That’s something he trained to master, it would be like having him suddenly forget how to go Super Saiyan.

I agree he shouldn't be stripped of it. It turns the entirety of Super into one large filler arc (more than it already is).

But your reasoning doesn't make much sense. I think what you might mean is that you're not keen on the idea because it makes Goku's development seem pointless?

[emperior]

I don’t think it would make sense for Goku to be stripped off his God ki. That’s something he trained to master, it would be like having him suddenly forget how to go Super Saiyan.

I agree he shouldn't be stripped of it. It turns the entirety of Super into one large filler arc (more than it already is).

But your reasoning doesn't make much sense. I think what you might mean is that you're not keen on the idea because it makes Goku's development seem pointless?

Well, other than making Goku’s development pointless, I don’t get how he could possibly be stripped out of his God ki. Isn’t that the same concept as if he was stripped out of his normal ki? If a foe ever had the ability to drain ki, it should just be a temporary thing. Similarly as to draining the stamina.
I really don’t like the concept at all. Ki is a martial arts thing, it’s not some crazy power they possess just because. There shouldn’t be a way for characters to permanently lose their martial arts prowess without incapacitating them.

If you are going to mention the Great Kaioshin losing his godly power, then that is probably a different thing. I don’t know what the Japanese term is, but I think God power is different from Ki, and it’s probably more similar to magic (which is why the move the Kaioshin used nullified Moro’s magic power).

[FrostByte]

So...how would you guys feel if Goku gave up his God Ki? and only Vegeta was left with it

it looks like they could be going in that Direction and making Ultra Instinct Goku's main Goal (He could still obtain it even without God Ki) Actually come to think of it Maybe God Ki holds him back in some ways

Even if he's gives up his God Ki to capture Moro, wouldn't he able to attain it once again if he trains with Whis?

[Dbzfan94]

So...how would you guys feel if Goku gave up his God Ki? and only Vegeta was left with it

it looks like they could be going in that Direction and making Ultra Instinct Goku's main Goal (He could still obtain it even without God Ki) Actually come to think of it Maybe God Ki holds him back in some ways

I don’t think it would make sense for Goku to be stripped off his God ki. That’s something he trained to master, it would be like having him suddenly forget how to go Super Saiyan.

You mean almost like Gohan in RF?

[prince212]

So...how would you guys feel if Goku gave up his God Ki? and only Vegeta was left with it

it looks like they could be going in that Direction and making Ultra Instinct Goku's main Goal (He could still obtain it even without God Ki) Actually come to think of it Maybe God Ki holds him back in some ways

Fuff that god ki thing ... wasn’t even well explained in the manga . Ritual , becoming a god who has a ki that mortals can’t sense . Then training and becoming more powerful on top of that ... blue . ... all in 3 panels if you join all that together...
Honestly is extremely poor how it was explained in the manga ... I guess that is covered with the movies .
I don’t think they’ll lose that power up ... I’ll be totally dumb. Anyways like somebody pointed , in the last chapter they talk about god powers , my interpretation of those are some like healing , creating rocks...... etc , those that zamasu had
Neither goku or vegeta have those , they are just god Ki ... I don’t know if they should be consider gods like at first was goku considered after the ritual ......

Spoiler: