"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[BrolySSJL]

I have recently learned that Toyotaro draws Piccolo with 5 fingers instead of 4. It is now confirmed that the DBS manga is canon to the DBZ anime. 100%.

I know that you're joking but, fun fact, Toyo drew Piccolo with 4 fingers in DB AF. This change was certainly mandated by Shueisha as part of their ongoing effort to sanitize Dragon Ball for a modern audience.

How is it possible? Now an alien with 4 fingers is offensive for today kids? What a shame.

They are trying really hard to make Super only for kids (much more than the original). DB it's a shonen, not Doraemon for god sake.

[batistabus]

I have recently learned that Toyotaro draws Piccolo with 5 fingers instead of 4. It is now confirmed that the DBS manga is canon to the DBZ anime. 100%.

I know that you're joking but, fun fact, Toyo drew Piccolo with 4 fingers in DB AF. This change was certainly mandated by Shueisha as part of their ongoing effort to sanitize Dragon Ball for a modern audience.

How is it possible? Now an alien with 4 fingers is offensive for today kids? What a shame.

They are trying really hard to make Super only for kids (much more than the original). DB it's a shonen, not Doraemon for god sake.

It's because 4 fingers has an association with the Yakuza. That being said, I don't know how Piccolo having 4 fingers is supposed to be particularly problematic. He is a reincarnation of a demon who had aspirations and performed actions much worse than the Yakuza. I'm sure Toriyama was inspired in part by the Yakuza when deciding to draw Piccolo with 4 fingers, but he is a villain! Blue and Goku Black both have outfits heavily inspired by Nazi uniforms, which I think is also much worse than allusions to the Yakuza. I suppose Japanese youngsters would probably be more savvy to the Yakuza than WW2, but still. Does Shueisha really think Piccolo is going to inspire children to dismember themselves and take on a life of organized crime?

I suppose it's possible that a Japanese equivalent to the FCC could have mandated this change, but I don't know anything about that. Does anyone else?

[TKA]

The "Yakuza association" is that the Yakuza are known to cut off a person's finger. Even Mickey Mouse cartoons back in the day were edited so he would have 5 fingers.

It's just a Japanese cultural thing, and I don't think we westerners are at liberty to question it, even though it may seem stupid to us.

[batistabus]

The "Yakuza association" is that the Yakuza are known to cut off a person's finger. Even Mickey Mouse cartoons back in the day were edited so he would have 5 fingers.

It's just a Japanese cultural thing, and I don't think we westerners are at liberty to question it, even though it may seem stupid to us.

I think we have every right to complain about censorship even if there's a reason for it. It was acceptable enough to be included in the manga in the past, but now it's apparently not. It's similar to how middle fingers are being sensored out of newer Z anime releases, or how blood was censored from Kai and minimized in Super. The point I was making was that there are other things that could be censored along a similar basis but are not.

If Shueisha continues looking outward, we may start seeing censorship aimed at non-Japanese sensitivities as well. Mr. Popo would be an obvious candidate, like how Jynx from Pokémon is now purple. While I understand the issues that people might have in every example, my sensibilities lean towards preserving the original version.

[TKA]

I think we have every right to complain about censorship even if there's a reason for it.

You can complain. There's just nothing to gain from this discussion and no meaningful way to effect change since, again, most of us are Westerners who have no real context for the Japanese perspective. The most that can be gained from complaining about it is "That sucks/I don't like it," followed by giving those who don't understand why the censorship happens a lesson on Japanese culture.

Also, I'm slightly bothered by complaining about it since it seems culturally insensitive to do so.

[batistabus]

I think we have every right to complain about censorship even if there's a reason for it.

You can complain. There's just nothing to gain from this discussion and no meaningful way to effect change since, again, most of us are Westerners who have no real context for the Japanese perspective. The most that can be gained from complaining about it is "That sucks/I don't like it," followed by giving those who don't understand why the censorship happens a lesson on Japanese culture.

Also, I'm slightly bothered by complaining about it since it seems culturally insensitive to do so.

There's nothing we can do to change anything with any discussion we have here, so I don't see why you'd point that out. The scenario you described is exactly what unfolded, which I think is perfectly relevant and acceptable discussion. Some people might have thought Toyotaro forgot Piccolo had 4 fingers in the manga because he's an "anime fanboy". After we get the facts straight, we're free to throw in our 2 cents.

I think cultural sensitivity and understanding things within a cultural context are important. We can respect those things while still discussing ideas. I don't like these changes, but I fully understand that these decisions weren't directed at my demographic. There are plenty of American censorship priorities that I don't understand either. I'd be very happy to read an opinion from someone with more intimate knowledge of Japanese culture who is in favor of this censorship.

[TKA]

There's nothing we can do to change anything with any discussion we have here, so I don't see why you'd point that out.

Well, I strongly disagree with that. Many people complain about fan content making its way into official product, after all. You don't get that fan content permeating in if fans aren't actively discussing and engaging. There's just nothing to be gained from complaining about Japanese culture. The only positive I can see is more people getting exposed to this information that they might otherwise not have.

We can respect those things while still discussing ideas. I don't like these changes, but I fully understand that these decisions weren't directed at my demographic.

See that's the thing: I don't think it's a demographic-concerning decision based on what I've read. If a character has four fingers in a Japanese production, usually it's part of the plot because that imagery is so powerful to the Japanese people that you can't just let it go unaddressed. To Americanize this a little... it'd be like if a show just casually has 9/11 imagery but never tries to justify it or explain why (re: basically every Michael Bay Transformers movie).

And I understand it's completely a personal thing, but I just don't like criticizing harmless decisions related to culture because I know ethnocentrism is a powerful thing. Women not being able to drive in some countries? I will criticize the fuck out of that. My cartoons/comics not having characters with 4 fingers? Eh, whatever. Again, I understand that that is 100% just my personal hangups.

[Doctor.]

If it's a symbol of the Yakuza now, then it was a symbol back when Toriyama willingly drew Piccolo with 4 fingers. The context is the same: people got it then that Piccolo wasn't affiliated with the Yakuza, they should get it now. It's not cultural insensitivity to point out blatant censorship in a case where cultural context is the same before and after.

[batistabus]

Tangentially related to the censorship discussion, here's a quote from the man himself.

There was one point where I did step in a bit to defend [the magazine] for a little while. It felt like they were pandering to the public. To put it simply, there were things like running biographical comics on Nobel laureates to go along with the announcement of the Nobel Prize, and when it seemed like bullying [in schools] had become a problem, running a comic about the bullying issue. I think it’s fine to have those things, but I also think it’s not something that you should make into a strategy for the magazine. I believe that comics magazines are purely entertainment, after all. And also, there had gotten to be a trend of, “If you show a little bit of nudity, your serial will be immediately canceled”. I thought, “I should have pushed harder against it.”

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

[Rakurai]

Tangentially related to the censorship discussion, here's a quote from the man himself.

There was one point where I did step in a bit to defend [the magazine] for a little while. It felt like they were pandering to the public. To put it simply, there were things like running biographical comics on Nobel laureates to go along with the announcement of the Nobel Prize, and when it seemed like bullying [in schools] had become a problem, running a comic about the bullying issue. I think it’s fine to have those things, but I also think it’s not something that you should make into a strategy for the magazine. I believe that comics magazines are purely entertainment, after all. And also, there had gotten to be a trend of, “If you show a little bit of nudity, your serial will be immediately canceled”. I thought, “I should have pushed harder against it.”

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

I am sure big-shot mangaka like Toriyama get certain liberties with their stories that other mangaka in Shueisha simply don't have. Toyotarou isn't in any position to challenge modern censorship policies, nor would it be that big of a deal for him; the cultural symbolism is there, it's offensive, it does nothing to impact the setting of the story or Piccolo's character.

[Noah]

I think the hardcore fans of DB will recognize Muten Roshi's connections to UI. So it's no surprise that people like Toyotarou and Nakamura did.

Speak it for yourself as we didn't had any glimpse of what is UI until RoF (movie), so having Roshi to know its fundaments was forced.

This is one of my favorite scenes of Goku showcasing his maturity and history with F. Trunks. To be able to say such words of encouragement to F. Trunks! Vegeta being Vegeta was also nice but not uncommon. This is the best of a resolution as one could get with what was given.

Too bad still doesn't top Trunks breaking down in tears seeing Gohan, remiding of his master and realizing how he failed only to be conforted by Gohan saying him to stay well.

Spoiler:

I think that apart from Risu, these is one of the best Super memes ever made, too bad there's no more of it

[Koitsukai]

I greatly disliked the manga version of the ToP, especially the finale, I believe Toei did a much better job(Toyo did a better one with the Zamasu arc). This gives me mixed feelings to whether is better if the anime follows the manga like it always did and worked great or should it be again like a race between them? I guess I prefer the anime to follow the manga and we all just stick to one story, so I hope DB Super anime returns not so soon, at least one full arc behind the manga.

[batistabus]

Spoiler:

I think that apart from Risu, these is one of the best Super memes ever made, too bad there's no more of it

This week, Risu admitted to regretting making it immediately after posting it. Personally, I'd like to see a single example from the DBS manga that illustrates what the image is portraying.

[SaiyanGod117]

Spoiler:

I think that apart from Risu, these is one of the best Super memes ever made, too bad there's no more of it

This week, Risu admitted to regretting making it immediately after posting it. Personally, I'd like to see a single example from the DBS manga that illustrates what the image is portraying.

He wasn't talking about the manga, he was talking about the anime, it was just visually easier to show in manga form.

[prince212]

Talking about next chapter, ... any possibilities bulma will call jaco and go there ? It was show at the beginning of the series that she can call jaco anytime and they are less than 1 hour distance ..so .. I won’t be surprise if bulma , Satan and somebody else show up on the head quarters of g.p ... I don’t think the fight will start until buu wakes up , unless that Moro just go for it ....

[Doctor.]

Personally, I'd like to see a single example from the DBS manga that illustrates what the image is portraying.

It's the overuse of certain expressions in back-to-back panels that make Goku seem excessively childish, even if his actions are in-character. Less of these, and more of these.

It's a minor aesthetic complaint, but it piles up. Goku in the original series conveys his facial expressions in a much more subdued way during dramatic moments; it's not as over-the-top. Obviously Toyotaro can draw Goku with a serious face during the major climactic moments, but it's the parts in-between that seem like the character is stuck with the same 3 or 4 overly cartoony stock expressions.

Pick a page of the original series at random where Goku is relaxed in a tense situation and notice how much more subtle and varied his facial expressions are. He can look happy and upbeat without being wide-eyed all the time, and he can look confused or scared without a gaping mouth.

[batistabus]

He wasn't talking about the manga, he was talking about the anime, it was just visually easier to show in manga form.

That may be what Risu intended at the time, but that's now how people have re-purposed it since.

It's the overuse of certain expressions in back-to-back panels that make Goku seem excessively childish, even if his actions are in-character. Less of these, and more of these.

It's a minor aesthetic complaint, but it piles up. Goku in the original series conveys his facial expressions in a much more subdued way during dramatic moments; it's not as over-the-top. Obviously Toyotaro can draw Goku with a serious face during the major climactic moments, but it's the parts in-between that seem like the character is stuck with the same 3 or 4 overly cartoony stock expressions.

Pick a page of the original series at random where Goku is relaxed in a tense situation and notice how much more subtle and varied his facial expressions are. He can look happy and upbeat without being wide-eyed all the time, and he can look confused or scared without a gaping mouth.

Even if I think this criticism is slightly over-stated, I actually agree with it overall. I think it fits well enough with the tone of Super, but if you look at Dragon Ball as a whole, it is a bit different from where Goku was at the end of the original manga.

That being said, people who are still sharing this image are taking away more implications than what you've described. They act as if Goku acts like this in serious moments, and that it's especially severe in the manga. That is not true.

Talking about next chapter, ... any possibilities bulma will call jaco and go there ? It was show at the beginning of the series that she can call jaco anytime and they are less than 1 hour distance ..so .. I won’t be surprise if bulma , Satan and somebody else show up on the head quarters of g.p ... I don’t think the fight will start until buu wakes up , unless that Moro just go for it ....

I'm sure Bulma could be worked in at some point, but I'm actually hoping for more involvement form Mr. Satan in this arc. I was hoping he would be dragged to the Galactic Patrol HQ along with Boo, but since that hasn't happened, who knows?

[AnimeNation101]

What are the chances that the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc ISN’T a U7 contained arc?

I mean, the villain is someone who wreaked havoc in only U7 before getting imprisoned.
And the Galactic Patrol is only a U7 thing.


But they really need to stop with these U7 contained arcs. Have Moro run to U6 and attack Sadala or something.

[Lord Beerus]

The 8th volume of the manga has sold 255,382 copies.

[Rakurai]

Speak it for yourself as we didn't had any glimpse of what is UI until RoF (movie), so having Roshi to know its fundaments was forced.

Too bad still doesn't top Trunks breaking down in tears seeing Gohan, remiding of his master and realizing how he failed only to be conforted by Gohan saying him to stay well.

It's making the connection after the concept is brought up or introduced. Roshi, knowing its fundamentals is not out of this world, being a martial artist first and foremost for more than one hundred years. If fans like Nakamura and Toyotarou made the connection, then I'm certainly not speaking for myself.

Now the entire Gohan-FTrunks shtick that the anime was pushing was unusual, unnatural and out of character. In DB/DBZ, FTrunks never had such interactions with Gohan. Present Gohan =/= future Gohan, despite having the same biology they are fundamentally different people. Present Gohan could never empathize with what FTrunks has gone through. FTrunks never hinted at seeing his FGohan in present Gohan either before. I don't buy these character interactions if they're just placed there for some cheap emotional moment.