"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

Toyotaros Jiren was never made out to be a wholesome teammate. He took care of the giant plant monster cause it was troubling citizens. When he left with Dyspo in Ch 36, he didn’t go help his teammates, it was because of the invisible warriors. At no point did Jiren help his teammates with Goku, Kale or Kefla.

Being a hero =/= caring about your teammates or having a friendship with him.

Manga Jiren has been pretty consistent throughout. Even in the anime he only helped his teammates once and called them pathetic near the end. He’s a good person who only trusts himself. Hopefully Toyo doesn’t turn him into an edgelord who attacks the spectators especially since he values life so much that he won’t even kill evil people

[OhHiRenan]

Toyotaros Jiren was never made out to be a wholesome teammate. He took care of the giant plant monster cause it was troubling citizens. When he left with Dyspo in Ch 36, he didn’t go help his teammates, it was because of the invisible warriors. At no point did Jiren help his teammates with Goku, Kale or Kefla.

Being a hero =/= caring about your teammates or having a friendship with him.

Manga Jiren has been pretty consistent throughout. Even in the anime he only helped his teammates once and called them pathetic near the end. He’s a good person who only trusts himself. Hopefully Toyo doesn’t turn him into an edgelord who attacks the spectators especially since he values life so much that he won’t even kill evil people

I have a feeling this may be in Toriyama's outline. It's a way of raising the stakes in the finale and adding in drama. I don't personally like it, but I can definitely see this being consistent between both the anime and manga.

[Marlowe89]

What I liked:

I'd previously said it'd be bad if a character like Toppo didn't get an appropriate sendoff, but as it turns out, he did; not in spite of his rather anticlimactic elimination, but because of it. Here we have a character whose leadership, strength, and devotion to justice earns him respect from his peers and even his God of Destruction now finding himself in a situation where he's utterly ignored by a teammate he and the other Pride Troopers look up to and rely on. This results in a cool character moment for Jiren that paves the way for his "strength is solitude" mantra that I'm sure we'll see more of in the coming months.

Arbitrary power-ups aside, Vegeta's character development is a pleasant surprise. Chapter 27's beat has him vowing to follow Whis' teachings to surpass his rival, but here in the midst of battle, Vegeta realizes that he's better off following his own path under no one's tutelage. In the same way that Goku's moment in the previous chapter was a nice callback to his past history, the same can be said for Vegeta's independent training methods throughout the original manga. It flows nicely and doesn't feel contrived. It's not like he's disregarding Whis, either; he just doesn't feel like having a master suits him, which is understandable.

Freeza and 17's interactions were a lot of fun. It's obvious that they're both cooking up some kind of strategy while Goku and Vegeta deal with Jiren head-on, so I don't believe for a second that 17 is actually down for the count -- neither does 18, apparently.

What I didn't like:

No matter how people try to rationalize it, Toppo and Dyspo of all people being stranded on a rock with no way of jumping back to the arena is jarring, especially when it's in the same chapter that shows Vegeta leaping reasonably far distances to fight Jiren. Seems like Toyotaro was trying to work out a way to have these guys eliminated without them simply getting overpowered, but couldn't think of a more creative alternative.

The notion of Vegeta pushing his Blue form to new heights out of frustration is a bit more internally consistent than just popping a new (and ugly, let's be honest) transformation out of nowhere over some forced misplaced sentimentality, mainly because it's related to intense emotions like anger and rage. Unfortunately, shit that stinks less is still shit, and rage boosts are trite as all hell at this stage of the franchise. Toyotaro's portrayal of Blue in the previous arc felt refreshingly distinct from its predecessor forms, which is why this is such a letdown in comparison even if it does "make sense" by Super's rules. There's gotta be a better balance.

Overall:

It was okay, but nothing to write home about. Now that we're in the climax, I get the feeling that the manga is going to start following the anime's beats a little more closely since they're probably derived from Toriyama's plot outline. I actually miss the chaotic atmosphere of the previous chapters.

[Bullza]

Chapter 40 should be the final chapter of Volume 8 so I would say there's probably going to four chapters left to round up Volume 9 and then the manga will end so that would go up January.

At which point I wonder if they'd actually keep it going to cover the Broly movie that would have come out the previous month.


As for the chapter itself, it was alright because once again it's worse than the previous one so it does keep getting worse and worse while the anime just got better and better. There's no comparison to be had anymore I don't think. Toppo and Dyspo were a complete waste in the manga, that was very disappointing.

[IM21]

Chapter 40 should be the final chapter of Volume 8 so I would say there's probably going to four chapters left to round up Volume 9 and then the manga will end so that would go up January.

At which point I wonder if they'd actually keep it going to cover the Broly movie that would have come out the previous month.


As for the chapter itself, it was alright because once again it's worse than the previous one so it does keep getting worse and worse while the anime just got better and better. There's no comparison to be had anymore I don't think. Toppo and Dyspo were a complete waste in the manga, that was very disappointing.

So far no volume has ended the arc so I think this time it will be the same. I expect the next chapter to end with 17 re-appearing and the November one will be the end of the tournament. I am pretty sure this tournament would have been longer if the Broly movie was coming later.

[Doctor.]

Man, this was bad. If the anime is the pinnacle of dumb spectacle, then this is the pinnacle of an anticlimax. Nothing here has any weight. Everything is so lame.

Vegeta's transformation is sudden, arbitrary and ultimately even a bigger offender than the anime because it goes ahead and regresses all the development he has gotten throughout Super. He's basically telling Whis to go fuck himself all throughout this chapter. I thought we'd gotten over this prideful Vegeta the moment he lowered himself to train with Whis, but I guess not. His speech to Jiren is hamfisted and comes without build-up. And the whole aura thing is antithetical to the SSB idea of keeping the Ki inside your body.

Toppo (and Dyspo) has been discarded as if he were a worthless jobber. He is a jobber in fact, he jobbed to a fucking rock. I could buy that he couldn't jump back if Toyotaro actually made any effort of portraying his (and Dyspo's) fatigue, but all he did throughout the tournament was fight Vegeta. And whereas Vegeta is able to go fight Jiren A-OK, Toppo gets pushed back by his aura and is suddenly without strength to jump such small gap. Maybe it's actually a big gap, a larger distance than what #17 jumped at the start of the tournament to prove flying didn't matter, but I certainly didn't get that impression when the tournament stage is so fucking tiny and has no sense of scale whatsoever.

#17's sacrifice is really, really bland. It wasn't given the weight and importance a moment like that should, but I'm willing to let that one slide considering we know he comes back. So lingering on for pages and pages would be bad.

I like the idea of Goku going UI again by calming himself down, but the dramatic effect is lost immediately when he just pops into it with no trouble. Still, I will give props to Toyotaro if he keeps this consistent and Goku doesn't get a rage boost in the climax. If he does, then... well, fuck this arc again.

Things I liked: 17 and Freeza's interactions are good, even if I feel Freeza was too quick to be a team player in this version. As much as the scenes of Freeza coming from nowhere to job got annoying during the final stretch of the tournament, it just made it all the more impactful when he actually teamed up in the last episode. That's lost here when he's so willing to sacrifice himself to buy Goku time.

Other minor nitpicks: the art is awful. Toyotaro forgot how IT works, Goku needs a Ki to sense, he can't just teleport into open space. Jiren saying he doesn't waste a movement is a blatant lie when he keeps toying with Freeza, 17 and Vegeta here (as well as fighting off-screen with Goku for God knows how many chapters) even though he has proven he can one shot everybody.

All in all, probably the worst chapter yet. Every week I'm surprised.

[PFM18]

Toppo and Dyspo are portrayed as complete losers. Like they are a joke in this chapter. This entire arc has been rushing to Jiren vs Goku with absolutely nothing else receiving any sort of focus or emotional weight of any kind. That fight better be good.

Also, I totally called it SSBE(or something essentially the same) being in the manga too!

[LightBing]

Toppo has been holding off Vegeta for like 4 chapters, how does that make him a joke? Vegeta's the third strongest person in this tournament!
Is this a symptom of the monthly releases or are people purposely ignoring information to fit their views?

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

The good and bad of Chapter 40 IMO

The good:
-Frieza #17 interactions (and setting up "The plan")
-Frieza luring Toppo and Dyspo into a trap
-17 mentioning his famly before he "blew up"
-The combat was pretty good.
-Mentioned Jiren's master without using flashbacks (though this can change in the later chapters, hopefuly it wont be as bad as in the anime)

The bad:
-Vegeta's character regressed into pre-Buu and early Buu saga personality, something I was very critical of when DBS anime did it.
-Jiren letting his teamates fall (though it was kinda justified giving there was only less of a second left before that piece of rock they were standing crumbled).
-Thats not how instant transmission work (can be fixed with Goku leaving a ki sphere on the ground and then IT next to it)
-SSB evolution (though I'm glad he doesnt have those UI/kawaii eyes)
-When Toppo gets teleported to the bench his unitard magiacally gets repaired.

Now they mentioned Jiren's wish in this chapter, and I hope its not the same wishing for his parents back like in the anime. But instead to wish all evil in his universe to disappear or something like that. Just to drive it home he's always a hero, even if act so cold towards his teamates. Also no attacking the spectator benches and no "my nakama is my power" and I will be content with this portrayl of ToP.

[Doctor.]

Toppo has been holding off Vegeta for like 4 chapters, how does that make him a joke? Vegeta's the third strongest person in this tournament!
Is this a symptom of the monthly releases or are people purposely ignoring information to fit their views?

Because Vegeta has also been holding Toppo off for 4 chapters as well and he goes ahead and beats down on Jiren for half the chapter. Meanwhile Toppo gets pushed back by Vegeta's aura and can't jump anymore.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Toppo is a joke cause he lost to Vegeta? That’s exactly how it was in the anime as well.

Is Vegeta also a joke for losing to jiren?

Toppo was always at a disadvantage cause Vegeta was strong enough to be a GoD candidate in other universe and his race is arguably the most broken one in the multiverse as they increase power during fights

[Doctor.]

Toppo is a joke cause he lost to Vegeta? That’s exactly how it was in the anime as well.

Is Vegeta also a joke for losing to jiren?

Toppo was always at a disadvantage cause Vegeta was strong enough to be a GoD candidate in other universe and his race is arguably the most broken one in the multiverse as they increase power during fights

He's a joke because he got blown the fuck out by Vegeta flexing his aura. This isn't hard to understand.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Toppo is a joke cause he lost to Vegeta? That’s exactly how it was in the anime as well.

Is Vegeta also a joke for losing to jiren?

Toppo was always at a disadvantage cause Vegeta was strong enough to be a GoD candidate in other universe and his race is arguably the most broken one in the multiverse as they increase power during fights

He's a joke because he got blown the fuck out by Vegeta flexing his aura. This isn't hard to understand.

So the exact same thing that happened in the anime right? An explosion of ki knocked him off the stage.

I guess jiren is a joke for losing to base freeza and base goku right? or is that ok cause its the anime ? I'd really like to know how you think , you seem very interesting as a "fan"

[Doctor.]

Toppo is a joke cause he lost to Vegeta? That’s exactly how it was in the anime as well.

Is Vegeta also a joke for losing to jiren?

Toppo was always at a disadvantage cause Vegeta was strong enough to be a GoD candidate in other universe and his race is arguably the most broken one in the multiverse as they increase power during fights

He's a joke because he got blown the fuck out by Vegeta flexing his aura. This isn't hard to understand.

So the exact same thing that happened in the anime right? An explosion of ki knocked him off the stage.

I guess jiren is a joke for losing to base freeza and base goku right? or is that ok cause its the anime ? I'd really like to know how you think , you seem very interesting as a "fan"

I'm not defending the anime. I think it's a piece of shit.

You're still making false equivalencies and acting as if big dramatic moments deprived of their context are the same as an anticlimatic and pathetic moment like Toppo's defeat here.

[LightBing]

Toppo has been holding off Vegeta for like 4 chapters, how does that make him a joke? Vegeta's the third strongest person in this tournament!
Is this a symptom of the monthly releases or are people purposely ignoring information to fit their views?

Because Vegeta has also been holding Toppo off for 4 chapters as well and he goes ahead and beats down on Jiren for half the chapter. Meanwhile Toppo gets pushed back by Vegeta's aura and can't jump anymore.

Which means Vegeta was winning and the fight was close to it's end, Toppo first appearance in this chapter is him holding his arm looking like a mess. He beat down Jiren for a bit after acquiring a new power up. It's pretty straightforward.

[Doctor.]

Toppo has been holding off Vegeta for like 4 chapters, how does that make him a joke? Vegeta's the third strongest person in this tournament!
Is this a symptom of the monthly releases or are people purposely ignoring information to fit their views?

Because Vegeta has also been holding Toppo off for 4 chapters as well and he goes ahead and beats down on Jiren for half the chapter. Meanwhile Toppo gets pushed back by Vegeta's aura and can't jump anymore.

Which means Vegeta was winning and the fight was close to it's end, Toppo first appearance in this chapter is him holding his arm looking like a mess. He beat down Jiren for a bit after acquiring a new power up. It's pretty straightforward.

1. Toppo was established as a God of Destruction candidate.
2. Toppo beat Goku.

This makes him a big fucking deal. Yet you're telling me he got beaten by Vegeta off-screen only to get blown out of the arena by an aura spike? And not only that, he's also physically incapable of jumping over some rocks?

He literally jobbed to the wind and to the ground. That's an incredibly pathetic defeat for a character supposed to be a big deal.

[dragon boss z]

-Thats not how instant transmission work (can be fixed with Goku leaving a ki sphere on the ground and then IT next to it)

I'm pretty sure instant transmission allows him to teleport somewhere if he can see where he is going. The point of locking on to ki is so he knows where to go. For example, without locking on to ki, he wouldn't be able to teleport from Beerus' place to Earth because he would have no idea where Earth is. He would just end up going to some random place in space. Targeting ki is like the lock on system.

Now they mentioned Jiren's wish in this chapter, and I hope its not the same wishing for his parents back like in the anime.

Jiren's wish was never to wish his parents back. He never said specifically, but he said he wanted what was beyond power.

Other minor nitpicks: the art is awful. Toyotaro forgot how IT works, Goku needs a Ki to sense, he can't just teleport into open space.

Same as above, I think the sensing ki is the lock on system. I don't remember it ever stating instant transmission literally doesn't work without a ki to sense. Goku spammed IT around Beerus in the BoG movie, and the yadrat spammed IT around Gohan in the anime, so they can clearly chose specific areas they want to teleport to. If he needs ki to even activate the technique, then he just locked on to Jiren's ki and teleported a dozen feet away from him behind a rock.

[Kanassa]

- #17's self destruction feel completely flat. I wasn't a huge fan of that moment in the anime, but at least the intention behind that moment in the anime was more earnest and palpable because it was in an moment of desperation and a last ditch attempt to protect Goku and Vegeta from Jiren eliminating the two of them along with and #17 at once. Not to mention #17 felt much more rounded as a character leading up to that character beat and felt more integral to the plot, as well the fact he had created a much better dynamic with the main cast before he blew himself up. The lack of any response from #18 in the manga made this moment all the more jarring and inconsequential.

Can anyone remember if Manga 17 had mentioned his family before this? Because this entire scene felt like a 'Oh shit, we forgot to give him any of that character build up or emotional connection to make you give a crap about his sacrificial moment. Quick, dump it on the audience just as he has his fake out death!' moment.

- Dyspo and Toppo getting jobbed out by Freeza was a major disappointment. I mean, Toppo beat SSJB Goku clean, so I would have thought this would lay the foundation for Toppo being a major hurdle to overcome. But nope. Toppo just gets his ass handed to him offscreen and that's the end of it. Not even expecting anything from Dyspo still left me major underwhelmed with how he bowed out of the story.

I'm fine with Frieza beating Toppo or tricking him into a position where he can break the stage underneath his opponent and send Toppo falling. What I'm not fine with is the almost comical scene of Vegeta ACCIDENTALLY sending Toppo flying off the stage and out of reach when powering up to fight Jiren. Vegeta didn't even notice Toppo was there or acknowledges him. What was this scene!? I feel like there should be 'Wah wah waaaaaah' music following it.

Also, wanna point out that Jiren had 17 and Frieza at his mercy at the edge of the stage, appears so fast that they can't react before he hits them... And he knocks them AWAY from danger instead of knocking them off the stage.

[LightBing]

1. Toppo was established as a God of Destruction candidate.
2. Toppo beat Goku.

This makes him a big fucking deal. Yet you're telling me he got beaten by Vegeta off-screen only to get blown out of the arena by an aura spike? And not only that, he's also physically incapable of jumping over some rocks?

He literally jobbed to the wind and to the ground. That's an incredibly pathetic defeat for a character supposed to be a big deal.

Beerus said Vegeta could be a Hakaishin candidate in another Universe, after a display of power.

Goku was ringed out by Toppo because he let his guard down. The later doubts his chances of victory if not for that moment.

Toppo is a big deal, Vegeta is an even bigger deal. The Saiyans evolving during battle further increases the gap between Toppo and Vegeta. This is not head-canon it's all explicitly said in the manga.

[Rakurai]

1. Frieza wasn't outsmarting anybody. Toppo and Dyspo were weakened and he took advantage of that.

2. What makes you think Goku was activating UI on his own? Clearly there is a trigger based on the state of mind and it's certainly not the same as that of the anime's whereby it just turns on at the most critical of moments like a plot device.

3. Fighters can detonate on their own without having a bomb. Are you forgetting about Vegeta?

1. That's lame, Dyspo can travel on the speed of light and Toppo is supposed to be Belmod successor. They were eliminated like fodders, I get that Toyotaro is in such a hurry to start drawing Broly, but he doesn't need to rub that on our faces.

2. Well, is a better being a plot device of something the character have no clue about than something that he barely learns and already knows how to use it free.

3. So what? They will go to the same stupid error from the anime? Having #17 faking his own death out of nothing? I thought Toyotaro/Toriyama could think something better than this.

1. FTL? Sorry to break it to you but characters have been FTL since DB. Burter himself claimed he was FTL in canon and Goku humiliated him with his own speed. So being FTL isn't an argument. Dyspo was worn off by 17 but he went ahead and tried to save his own teammate anyways. But ofc what does it matter if he's just doing what he does IC, all that matters is how he was being toyed with by Frieza irrespective of their conditions, one recovered and the other beaten and worn down thinking about his teammate. That it automatically makes him fodder to fans is just bad discourse.

Toppo fighting the third strongest person in the tournament, one who is also the equivalent of a GoD candidate. Both worn out as shit. Eliminated like fodders. Uh-huh. What, did you need Vegeta to blast him off the stage with a Final Flash or something? Or do a beam clash? Would that make his elimination better for you, show how Vegeta was the better fighter through bigger power levels?

2. You haven't read what I posted and you're making assumptions again.

3. I addressed your complaint about a plothole, which was invalid. Its inclusion to the story and relevance is a different matter. If 17 was supposed to sacrifice himself according to the ToP outline, then he was supposed to sacrifice himself. This is a problem with the plot in general.

Other minor nitpicks: the art is awful. Toyotaro forgot how IT works, Goku needs a Ki to sense, he can't just teleport into open space. Jiren saying he doesn't waste a movement is a blatant lie when he keeps toying with Freeza, 17 and Vegeta here (as well as fighting off-screen with Goku for God knows how many chapters) even though he has proven he can one shot everybody.

Goku can teleport around the ki signature. He was close enough to Jiren's as well as Vegeta's ki to do so. This isn't a plot hole.