"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Here are some things that completely make what ur saying crumble.

1. This SSBE knock off that Vegeta unlocks in the T.o.P and the SSBKK knock off that Goku uses in the T.o.P are both established to be more powerful forms than Completed SSB. So CSSB aint the pinnicle anymore and that doesn’t make sense

2. The main gimmick of CSSB is that you don’t let your ki leak, both the SSBE and SSBKK knock offs let ki leak. Yet they’re both superior in power and speed.


These knock off forms are completely contradict CSSB. Which sucks because I'm actually fine with CSSB. Its a cool concept. But these knock offs are just examples of Toyo being difficult and making things more confusing to follow whilst contradicting himself. Not to mention the knock off of SSBKK has no explanation of its origins. It just comes out of nowhere as something that SSB can apparently do.

1 - You did not understand. I made a distinction between regular Blue and Blue evolved. Completed SSB is still just the Blue, but it is at its pinnacle with power and strength control. Blue evolved shown in ToP does not fit into the regular Blue, it's an evolution, an enhancement, so that's why CSSB is the pinnacle of SSB

2- So as Blue evolved is different from regular Blue, it makes no sense you try to apply the rules from one transformation to another. Regular Blue requires Ki to be contained within the body to use its maximum potential, but Evolved Blue, as an evolution, consists of something different to increase Vegeta's power, and has a totally different aura. So you can not say that Evolved Blue does not make sense using normal Blue concepts, they are different ways of using power

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaioken

Here’s the thing though. The forms were never stated in the manga to be Blue Evolved. In the end, its just a headcanon on your part that what Goku and Vegeta use are evolved SSB forms. And not 1 but 2 different evolved SSBs. Whats the explanation for that?

But lets say it was evolved Blue. That logic from your second point makes no sense. CSSB works with you containing and harnessing your aura inside your body to increase your power. Nothing suggests that an Evolved Blue COULDN’T do that. In fact, SSB being able to do that makes it MORE LIKELY that an Evolved SSB can do the same. Because and Evolved SSB is just an upgraded SSB form.

The fact that the transformation does not receive a name does not mean that it is not an evolution

First, one of the signs of a new transformation or evolution in relation to something earlier is the visual aspect, and Beerus quickly notes that Vegeta's aura has completely changed

Spoiler:

Later, Jiren thought that Vegeta was hiding power against Toppo after he awakened this new form, but the Saiyajin clearly responds that his race evolves during a fight (suggesting an evolution again in relation to the regular Blue)

Spoiler:

Whis also says that Vegeta was evolving in his own way

Spoiler:

So the new Blue that Vegeta woke up has no relation to regular Blue or CSSB concepts, it's something different, new, much more powerful. Evolved Blue does not need to follow the rule of containing the Ki in the body to get stronger, it's just a different power up.
And what Goku uses is not an evolved Blue like Vegeta's, it's just a desperate attempt to gain more power by elevating his Ki to the point of almost blowing his body. Goku was ignoring the principles of CSSB and trying to use something similar to Kaioken because he thought that was the solution (even some people think it really was the Kaioken)

[Lord Beerus]

The action in the chapter was very well panelled, but Moro is basically King Piccolo 2.0... a generic doomsday villain with no really quirks or flair in his characterisation to set him apart and make him stand out.

I certainly like the idea of the cast having their power drained and possibly leading them to think to having to solve the problem beyond find some contrived way to hit hard then before.

This arc so far just screams "filler". I wouldn't be surprised if this arc wraps up before November, because the plot is moving by incredibly quick.

[Marlowe89]

I’m asking why you’re against Toyo using SSBKK and SSBE instead of his knock offs in the manga, since SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST.

And I believe I thoroughly answered your question. I'm against Toyotaro using Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution because of how little impact they actually have in Super. His "knock offs" are self-explanatory in the context of the manga, didn't feel like knock offs as a result, didn't need to stack a bunch of over-inflated bullshit like Kaioken or Vegeta's Crest Toothpaste equivalent to make their individual storytelling points, and unlike their anime counterparts, didn't shit all over the story's thematic elements purely for the sake of 2K00L4SCH00L fanservice that contributed nothing that Blue couldn't have contributed on its own.

Then you bash SSBE by calling it a bandaid by Toei but it seems you forget that Toyo’s knock off of it is just Toyo copying the concept that you bashed for the same reason.

I don't think you're understanding my point.

I said Blue Evolution was an obvious attempt to have Vegeta catch up to a form that Goku used fairly regularly by the time it was introduced. Goku doesn't use Blue Kaioken in the manga, nor does he regularly use the power-stressed version of Blue -- and for that matter, nothing implies that Vegeta can't do the same thing. Toyotaro wasn't copying that aspect of Blue Evolution's concept, which is what I was criticizing, since that aspect doesn't actually exist in the manga.

The filler nonsense (What makes it nonsense, I don't know) has Goku facing the full ramifications of using the technique without fully developing it, showing him how it can permanently cripple him if he's reckless, recovers and then uses this as a reason why he only uses Kaioken once for a second in the Zamasu Arc and then is able to use it efficiently in the TOP.

It's nonsense because the whole goddamn message of the ki-onset-delay episode was that Goku should have used Blue Kaioken sparingly and conservatively instead of mindlessly spamming it to oblivion. Goku does exactly that in the Future Trunks arc, but then the story immediately ignores all of that by having him abuse the form left and right during the next arc without a single repercussion or acknowledgment he even mastered the form, let alone improved it.

It's nonsense because the anime was trying to have its cake and eat it too. It's a cop-out with no payoff whatsoever.

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaiokem

You can distinguish them. I have no problem with that.

The point of contention was whether the manga's "evolved" Blue would be considered an intrinsically different transformation from the regular one, much like the anime's Blue Evolution, and I don't think that was Toyotaro's intention at all. For all intents and purposes, every single time some new milestone is achieved with Blue in the manga, the new version completely supersedes and replaces the old one, and it's still just called "Super Saiyan Blue". That doesn't happen in the anime.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The chapter was even worse than I expected. I never imagined Toyo would play the Cell and King Piccolo similarities so straight. Vegeta uses the exact same info gathering strategy Piccolo used against Cell, and it seems his wish really was to regain his former power just like Piccolo. Also, I can't believe the whole chapter was wasted on the Vegeta fight.

[Kanassa]

It's nonsense because the anime was trying to have its cake and eat it too. It's a cop-out with no payoff whatsoever.

Goku uses the form
The drawbacks hit him
Stops him from using it until desperate in the next arc
He mostly overcomes the drawbacks in a later arc

A simple case of cause and effect and then him moving past it. Not really a cop-out.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaiokem

You can distinguish them. I have no problem with that.

The point of contention was whether the manga's "evolved" Blue would be considered an intrinsically different transformation from the regular one, much like the anime's Blue Evolution, and I don't think that was Toyotaro's intention at all. For all intents and purposes, every single time some new milestone is achieved with Blue in the manga, the new version completely supersedes and replaces the old one, and it's still just called "Super Saiyan Blue". That doesn't happen in the anime.

Well, I consider the manga Evolved Blue as a variation of the regular SSB and therefore a new transformation. After all, in the manga, SSB hit its pinnacle with CSSB, so what's above that would be an evolution, something beyond the limits of SSB. But physically, SSB Evolution has more differences over SSB than Evolved Blue, which looks less like a completely new transformation.

Although I doubt whether Vegeta was referring to Evolved Blue when he said in this chapter that SSB was much stronger than Moro's magic (CSSB came to be called SSB only, but Evolved Blue despite not having a name has always been treated as something beyond Blue, then it would not make sense to just call it SSB)

[Smilodon]

Nice cap, but too small....Only the fight.
I really liked Moro's magic. It's really dangerous. Now...Is he above the god level? 'Cause he absorbed the Namekian planet power + Goku + Vegeta and all namekians....I wanna see an villain way stronger than Beerus...To give us that feeling when we met King Piccolo, Freeza, Majin Boo...In super we didn't see that. It's always a guy weaker than Beerus, but he never fought anyone (just a week version of Zamasu).

For next cap I can imagine Goku and Vegeta chickening out with the shunkan idou + Moro getting his wish and kill all namekians and absorb the planet...Now they are no match for Moro.

[Bullza]

I read that this saga is being written as a combination between Toriyama and Toyotaro?

I hope Toyotaro isn't going to end up having too much influence in this series story. I don't know who did the character design for Moro but I wouldn't be surprised if it was him because it's not a very good one.

So far this just reminds me of any fan story that I've read. A new villain gets pulled out from under a rock and then...there's no real story...they just jump straight into Goku or Vegeta fighting them. If you look at the Frieza or Cell saga, a ton of stuff happened between the start of the saga and the fights with the main antagonist. There's been none of that here.

- They haven't built up any story.

- They haven't developed Moro, he's as generic as can be, his wish is as generic as can be.

- It's mainly been set on New Namek so not even a new environment

- The way that the battles are playing out is the same general formula of Vegeta going first and losing etc.

- It's gone back to being the Goku and Vegeta show again.

This is where this manga is nothing at all like what the original manga was, not even close, I don't know if it's because it's monthly, he feels the need to rush through things but the original manga never had this pacing problem, the characters weren't boring, the story wasn't shallow and it had other people involved. This just feels like a well done Dragon Ball AF story.

[PFM18]

possibly leading them to think to having to solve the problem beyond find some contrived way to hit hard then before.

C'mon, this is Dragon Ball. That'll never happen!

[AnimeNation101]

1 - You did not understand. I made a distinction between regular Blue and Blue evolved. Completed SSB is still just the Blue, but it is at its pinnacle with power and strength control. Blue evolved shown in ToP does not fit into the regular Blue, it's an evolution, an enhancement, so that's why CSSB is the pinnacle of SSB

2- So as Blue evolved is different from regular Blue, it makes no sense you try to apply the rules from one transformation to another. Regular Blue requires Ki to be contained within the body to use its maximum potential, but Evolved Blue, as an evolution, consists of something different to increase Vegeta's power, and has a totally different aura. So you can not say that Evolved Blue does not make sense using normal Blue concepts, they are different ways of using power

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaioken

Here’s the thing though. The forms were never stated in the manga to be Blue Evolved. In the end, its just a headcanon on your part that what Goku and Vegeta use are evolved SSB forms. And not 1 but 2 different evolved SSBs. Whats the explanation for that?

But lets say it was evolved Blue. That logic from your second point makes no sense. CSSB works with you containing and harnessing your aura inside your body to increase your power. Nothing suggests that an Evolved Blue COULDN’T do that. In fact, SSB being able to do that makes it MORE LIKELY that an Evolved SSB can do the same. Because and Evolved SSB is just an upgraded SSB form.

The fact that the transformation does not receive a name does not mean that it is not an evolution

First, one of the signs of a new transformation or evolution in relation to something earlier is the visual aspect, and Beerus quickly notes that Vegeta's aura has completely changed

Spoiler:

Later, Jiren thought that Vegeta was hiding power against Toppo after he awakened this new form, but the Saiyajin clearly responds that his race evolves during a fight (suggesting an evolution again in relation to the regular Blue)

Spoiler:

Whis also says that Vegeta was evolving in his own way

Spoiler:

So the new Blue that Vegeta woke up has no relation to regular Blue or CSSB concepts, it's something different, new, much more powerful. Evolved Blue does not need to follow the rule of containing the Ki in the body to get stronger, it's just a different power up.
And what Goku uses is not an evolved Blue like Vegeta's, it's just a desperate attempt to gain more power by elevating his Ki to the point of almost blowing his body. Goku was ignoring the principles of CSSB and trying to use something similar to Kaioken because he thought that was the solution (even some people think it really was the Kaioken)

Ok. Lets say it IS Blue Evolved. Same concept as the anime. Just looks different.

Where does it say that Evolved SUPER SAIYAN BLUE has no relation to SUPER SAIYAN BLUE? The whole point of EVOLVING from something is that you’re advancing into a superior form from that original something.

Its like how the rules of power and Ki in SSJ work exactly like how they do in SSJ2 and SSJ3. You transform and get a power multiplier but the forms drain your ki, Why would a technique that works in SSB NOT WORK in an Evolved SSB? Especially when Evolved SSB turns out to just be a more powerful and faster SSB. If Evolved SSB WASN’T related to SSB, then it WOULDN’T have SSB in the name and WOULDN’T look the same as SSB with a slight change in arua.

And you literally say in your post in the page before that Toyo’s kaioken blue knock off is also an evolved blue. But now here you are saying the knockoff isn’t an evolved SSB but just an attempt to increase power buy elevating ki.

[AnimeNation101]

Speaking of this whole “Goku and Vegeta show” thing, just a heads up that imo, i dont thinkwe should ever hope for the Z-Fighters to do anything else and we should just assume the T.o.P was their final send off.

On that note, these multiversal allies are being severely underutilized.

This chapter seems to be 75 percent loved with 25% disliking it.

Its kinda obvious that Moro will probably succeed in getting his wish. No idea on where they will go from there.

Again, really shouldn’t have made Moro the only villain. I dont have a problem with him but i can see how others may find his personality boring. So having other villains, whether working with him or on their own side, would spice things up a bit.

I personally love what XV1 and the Cell Saga did by having villains that ended up being red herrings for the true villain.

Also hoping Moro completely drains Goku and Vegeta leaving them out of the fight for some time. And i hope Moro goes to another universe to involve other characters in the arc.

[Lionel]

The fight was good enough. It's not too remarkable. I hope Moro can brandishes more unique and impactful magical abilities. His energy draining perk is consistent with what's been established. I think I'm more interested in Vegeta's compulsion to protect the Namekians and Moro's relationship with Cranberry at this point in time.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I still don't care too much about Moro, BUT his energy draining ability is really cool. Goku and Vegeta not being able to transform while fighting this guy should make for some interesting battles. Such a shame that a lot of this is material we've already seen before in some shape or form. Moro's basically King Piccolo and I hate that we're on Namek again. I do really like how he fights by using a planets energy. Dude was throwing magma at Vegeta and that was awesome. Decent chapter.

[HeroR]

Moro is more Cell than King Piccolo. They even reused, 'I give up, so tell me your evil plan gimmick', although Moro wasn't as dumb as Cell and kept attacking while revealing his evil plan. Which was so easy to guess that you have to wonder why Vegeta even bothered and why did Vegeta even care what Moro's wish was.

And I really hate they used the RPG cliche of people not revealing important information for no good reason, especially when the character in question went, 'they left without getting all the information'. You know, you could have told them this, although Goku and Vegeta were morons in this chapter.

[Chuquita]

I set my expectations for Moro too high. I was anxiously hoping he'd have some Jojo-level of crazy powers, but he's instead mostly more of what we've seen before.

Moro's okay, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed about him.

I'm hoping things pick up next month. They might.

I agree that this arc is feeling like the 90's Z movies though, for better or worse.

[Michsi]

Chapter was neat, but I kinda liked it a little less than the last one. The first part was interesting and last portion as well, but the middle was a little tedious. As someone who has only recently started following the manga I can see why so many really want Toyotaro to improve- his paneling is stale, which makes fight scenes a little uninteresting. Guess that's why I liked the last chapter better, it was more story focused. This bit with Goku realizing something is wrong was really nice though.

[Bullza]

I agree that this arc is feeling like the 90's Z movies though, for better or worse.

Yeah that's about right. This all feels like a manga adaptation of a non canon movie or something.

Honestly the story concepts they've been coming up with for Dragon Ball Heroes with the Prison Planet and this group out to kill Zeno are actually far more interesting than what they've come up with here.

[Sora Saiyan]

This logic is rather flawed though.

You’re saying that Toyo’s versions of SSBKK and SSBE line up better with the Broly movie because in the Broly movie, Goku and Vegeta.

First off, the SSB arua in the movie looks different than in the anime due to the Shintani art style and Nagamine’s color direction. But mostly the different style. Heck, Gogeta in SSB has an arua that looks like UI sometimes. And Toyo’s version of SSBE looks exactly like his regular SSB which looks similar to the anime (mostly in shape). So i dont see how the arua in the movie can be different than the anime but not the manga in this case.

Second off, Toyo’s version of SSBKK has an arua that looks completely different than anything Goku’s arua looked like in the movie. So we KNOW for a fact that Goku didn’t use Toyo’s version of SSBKK just like how he didn’t use the actual SSBKK. As for Toyo’s version of SSBE, it looks exactly like SSB so at most, you could ASSUME Vegeta uses it in the Broly movie, but there is no real proof.

I did a bad job at explaining this. What I meant was that this could have actually been a way to give SSJB more miles, and after seeing the new Broly movie he could've decided to use that aura so it blends with the new movie without causing any contradictions as the auraless SSJB did. Also it appears new, and distinguishable from what was shown prior in the anime, and also in the manga. So it still feels new, doesn't have anything other visually to distinguish it from regular SSJB which is what Toriyama clearly sees as the max power of the Saiyans.
Obviously the reason the SSJB aura looks different in the movie is just due to the new art style, but it's pretty cool that Toyo had a new power up that allows his version to fit in.

I pointed out in my previous post that this theory is only any good if Toyo decides to also give Goku the form. So bringing up Gokus forced power up isn't really a good point to use, as Jiren already highlighted it's flaws and it was weaker than Vegetas power up. It had no upside in comparison, but let's see where the manga decides to go with this.

[RandomGuy96]

The story so far is extremely stock. Just the blandest and most cliche set-up possible, it resembles one of the DBZ movies more than any of the arcs even.

[Miracles]

Didn't really care for the chapter. Just dodging and shooting with the big plot headline about Moro using the planets energy for attacks and his absorbing ability includes opponents.

As for the discussion about the different forms/power ups between anime and manga. They don't matter since Toriyama doesn't acknowledge them in his view of Super. Toriyama stayed with plain old Super Saiyan god and Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan from BoG, RoF, outlines and Broly. Toriyama is the authority and TOEI and Toyotaro only adapt from his movies and outlines.