"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lukmendes]

Also, Do you think Goku was in MSSB against Kale? I don't think so from the way Freeza was able to kick Goku out of blue so easily when supposedly saving him from Kale?

There was no reason for him to not do it, since MSSB is both stronger and wastes less stamina than normal Blue, you can see that he has no aura too.

After Freeza kicks Goku you can see in a panel that Goku is still with Blue before landing, plus he doesn't actualy look hurt, so maybe he consciously chose to stop using Blue, maybe because if he was just gonna scream at Freeza he didn't think Blue was needed.

[batistabus]

The dbs manga traits:
Bad writing
Boring villians
Weak villians
Unimagintive art
sewage-water power scailing
poor character use (Kuririn, 18, trunks, piccolo etc

What about the writing is bad?
In what way are the villains boring?
What do you mean when you say the villains are weak, and why is it bad?
What makes the manga's power scaling bad? Why is power scaling in specific instances important to you?
What about the side character use to you find poor?

terrible pacing

Just curious, do you find the pacing of the DBS anime to be good?

unimaginative art
Poor page layout

Just because you watched a couple of YouTube videos that said this, it doesn't mean you can just state this as fact.

unpopular in the fandom, TNM, Geekdom

Aside from the fact that Geekdom and TNM should not be considered authorities on Dragon Ball imo, using another persons beliefs to back up your point is incredibly weak evidence. Their opinions are no more valid than any random Kanzenshuu poster.

The majority of the English speaking fandom also considers the DBZ dub to be superior to the Japanese version, so let's not use what you believe to be fan concensus as evidence, either.

toyotaro apologist

The fact that you use terminology like this but are unable to provide a shred of evidence for any of your assertions is extremely hypocritical.

Posting sassy reaction gifs is not in the spirit of posting on Kanzenshuu.

[sunsetshimmer]

Bad writing

What is so bad in manga writing that doesn't apply to anime as well?

Boring villians
Weak villians

Yeah, except manga has the same villains as anime. And the ones exclusive to anime (Copy-Vegeta and Watagash) are so bad they didn't appear anywhere since their debut including Heroes and pretty much no one talk about them. And i don't see how execution in manga was so different except for Fused Zamasu actually being a badass in place of anime crybaby that turned into purple slime. Jiren has no personality in both. Golden Frieza arc didn't even appear in manga.

sewage-water power scailing

Yeah because Goku needing SSJ Blue to beat Gohan and his attacks being blocked by 18 makes much more sense.
The only big issue manga has compared to anime is how weak Kefla was.

Unpopular among the famdon (look at totally not mark, geekdom, etc)

Who cares about them? Look at me lol.

[TKA]

Also, Do you think Goku was in MSSB against Kale? I don't think so from the way Freeza was able to kick Goku out of blue so easily when supposedly saving him from Kale?

I don't think it really... uhm... matters, I guess.

The point of the scene was that Kale was overpowering fighters that should be able to beat her because they were underestimating her (and the next chapter backs this up with Vegeta saying the same thing).

But if you take narrative intent away and look at this all really mechanically: Kale was attacking a lot while Goku was dodging her pretty easily, and then she finally got 1 shot through. If we're generous, that means Kale got 1/10 attacks through. That, to me, says Goku could easily beat her if he was to fight serious and focus on her.

Also, it's worth reading Rebel Instinct's posts on the matter. They're very good and very well-thought-out

I have no problem with the series' #1 prodigy, since the very first arc of Z, going toe to toe with Kefla. The only travesty is that the fight happened off screen and thus executed very poorly.

See, I wouldn't mind it as much if it was just "executed very poorly". At least then we would've gotten something. As it is, it wasn't executed at all, which is worse.

[Rakurai]

It should be obvious to everyone involved that the way that was handled was blatantly inconsistent scaling. If he decides not to argue with manga apologists about it, then so be it. I don't blame him for it one bit.

The dbs manga traits:
Bad writing
Boring villians
Weak villians
Unimagintive art
sewage-water power scailing
poor character use (Kuririn, 18, trunks, piccolo etc)
Goku and Vegeta wank (but even still, they are a joke in power compared to their anime counterparts LOOOOL)
poor page layout
Unpopular among the famdon (look at totally not mark, geekdom, etc)
Terrible pacing

I try talking to the toyotaro apologist but he would just deflect and say "well, toyotaro couldn't do better".

You know what's obvious? That you don't have a single good argument to back up your statements and are nothing short of bark and no bite. This reeks of a YouTube comment.

The fandom is not dictated by ppl like Totally Not Mark or clowns like Geekdom. The latter who creates knee-jerk reactions on chapters before they are released in English, in a language he can't even speak. Good thing the DBS manga sales imply otherwise.

But of course you are going to call me a manga or Toyotarou apologist as if you had any other argument in the first place.

[Lukmendes]

Yeah, except manga has the same villains as anime. And the ones exclusive to anime (Copy-Vegeta and Watagash) are so bad they didn't appear anywhere since their debut including Heroes and pretty much no one talk about them. And i don't see how execution in manga was so different except for Fused Zamasu actually being a badass in place of anime crybaby that turned into purple slime. Jiren has no personality in both. Golden Frieza arc didn't even appear in manga.

There's Black too, anime and manga versions are like night and day, even on how the saiyan traits affect their personalities.

But if you take narrative intent away and look at this all really mechanically: Kale was attacking a lot while Goku was dodging her pretty easily, and then she finally got 1 shot through. If we're generous, that means Kale got 1/10 attacks through. That, to me, says Goku could easily beat her if he was to fight serious and focus on her.

Goku didn't dodge her at all, she threw a punch at him which he easily blocked, but when she started to attack him again, her power increase was clearly pushing him to the point she overwhelmed him, not saying this means she'd ultimately win, just that their brief scuffle got in her favor pretty quick

[OhHiRenan]

The worst part about “power scaling” discussions are that, more often than not, weaker characters damaging stronger character simply cannot be accepted. Kuririn and Gohan both manage to hurt Freeza, someone far stronger than them, by fighting intelligently or gaining a brief upper hand in the Namek arc.

It’s totally possible for Kale to overwhelm Goku momentarily without it being “inconsistent power scaling” or other such nonsense.

[prince212]

The worst part about “power scaling” discussions are that, more often than not, weaker characters damaging stronger character simply cannot be accepted. Kuririn and Gohan both manage to hurt Freeza, someone far stronger than them, by fighting intelligently or gaining a brief upper hand in the Namek arc.

It’s totally possible for Kale to overwhelm Goku momentarily without it being “inconsistent power scaling” or other such nonsense.

Right . If weaker characters couldn’t damage stronger by luck, surprise or better played movements , the series will be boring as hell . It’s weird that any of those “lucky” moments by weaker fighters its being criticized, when they are the moments that dress the salad .

[YamiGoku]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

cramming every page with like 80 panels, putting walls of unnecessary text on each page and filling the pages of every fighting scenes with tons of panels of people reacting to them, that's not how a good manga is composed.

Toriyama himself basically told this to toyotaro on an interview, and toyo said "I keep that it in mind" he sure did...

you can like this version of the story, thats fine, but you all defend the manga like it was a masterpiece and its just as flawed as the anime (a lot more in my opinion).

[Rakurai]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

[shadowfox87]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

It's amazing how people call opinions fact at their own whim.

[IM21]

I love it when people are like "well, the youtuber doesn't like it so its shit". Why not make up your own mind. Also stop with "thats a fact". On the end of the day some people will like it and some won't. Just make the reasons clear and dont mention youtubers that know just as much as anyone here.

[Rakurai]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

It's amazing how people call opinions fact at their own whim.

I can never understand how people can consider a franchise as "bad" to be fact. Even majority opinion doesn't make it fact.

We can discuss facts within the context of what occurred in the manga. But when it comes to opinions about writing, story, characterization, etc., there's only the good and the bad. And even then these things are never unambiguously agreed upon either.

[Rakurai]

I love it when people are like "well, the youtuber doesn't like it so its shit". Why not make up your own mind. Also stop with "thats a fact". On the end of the day some people will like it and some won't. Just make the reasons clear and dont mention youtubers that know just as much as anyone here.

I've personally had a friend to tell me to open up my own DB YouTube channel because he thinks I know as much as the DB YouTubers + I have most of the guidebooks + I can read Japanese fairly well. I'm sure many people here can do the same too, with the difference that we all have our own opinions about different parts of the franchise. But that's not how most of us can make our living, or even want to for that matter.

[YamiGoku]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

[IM21]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

Why would anyone even compare Toyo to probably the best action mangaka of all time. Prime Toriyama pretty much destroys any action manga.

[Miracles]

Also, Do you think Goku was in MSSB against Kale? I don't think so from the way Freeza was able to kick Goku out of blue so easily when supposedly saving him from Kale?

I don't think it really... uhm... matters, I guess.

The point of the scene was that Kale was overpowering fighters that should be able to beat her because they were underestimating her (and the next chapter backs this up with Vegeta saying the same thing).

But if you take narrative intent away and look at this all really mechanically: Kale was attacking a lot while Goku was dodging her pretty easily, and then she finally got 1 shot through. If we're generous, that means Kale got 1/10 attacks through. That, to me, says Goku could easily beat her if he was to fight serious and focus on her.

Also, it's worth reading Rebel Instinct's posts on the matter. They're very good and very well-thought-out.

I Appreciate it.

[YamiGoku]

And that's where your credibility stops.

you can say the manga is better than the anime, and thats a valid opinion, you can say the story it's better, you can say the characters are better, etc

but the manga is factually badly composed

you don't need to go far, just grab a page from the DBZ or DB manga (witch are good), and compare it to the DBS manga, its like day and night

one is going to look way too cramed with panels and text, the other one is going to look simple, more to the point and will end with a hook on the last panel to make you want to keep reading.

Why would anyone even compare Toyo to probably the best action mangaka of all time. Prime Toriyama pretty much destroys any action manga.

I dont expect him to be on the level of "prime toriyama", but he could try to be more close to his quality, he likes to do so many "homages" he could also try to copy the composition part and not just character poses, even more after toriyama himself told him what he needed to do.

[Dragon Wukong]

I mean, art-wise Toyotaro is better than Buu-saga Toriyama, IMO.

I'm prepared for the incoming replies telling me I'm wrong, but Buu-saga Toriyama wasn't polished at all.

[PFM18]

You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.

Yeah that's not how opinions work my dude. You calling the manga bad is your opinion, and nothing more. Sure, I'm also not a fan of the manga but that's just my opinion and if other people get enjoyment out of it, then more power to them.

I mean, art-wise Toyotaro is better than Buu-saga Toriyama, IMO.

I'm prepared for the incoming replies telling me I'm wrong, but Buu-saga Toriyama wasn't polished at all.

The Buu arc is complete trash so the art being bad shouodn't be surprising.