"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

those were different arcs,
raditz was dealt with and vegeta and nappa came a year later and goku was able to train and get stronger

goku didn't fight the androids(Sans 19 before his heart virus) he just fought cell after training

my point is they usually don't have 2 villians stronger in the same arc like this, and also the circumstances are way different here at the TOP then the saiyan and android saga

That's not true at all. Toriyama's actually style is to ALWAYS have power progression. It's the Super anime that's deviating from Toriyama's style.

Saiyan arc includes Raditz.

Etc. The point I'm making is that there has always been preliminary rounds before the big fight with the final boss. Toriyama uses a stepping stone structure to his stories. He always has.

You know its pretty funny you say that when Toyotaro made almost every antagonists be chumps so far while the anime did the opposite.
Especially when you remember how pathetic manga Hit,Black and Merged Zamasu were.
You also must be a physic because you can tell teamwork will matter and that Goku won't run solo for some reason.

Pathetic how? They weren't immediate threats, just like Nappa wasn't a threat to a stronger Goku and Goku was able to overcome the Prince of Saiyans before he goes Oozaru. Just like Imperfect Cell wasn't anything and 19/20 were easily beaten. Just like Babidi's henchmen being weaklings and a weaker Gohan giving the King of the Demon Realm a run for his money even after Dabura powered up in meditation. Black and Zamasu were never the end bosses. The end boss of the Trunks arc was always Merged Zamasu. Everyone else was a weakling by comparison. That's the Toriyama style.

It has ZERO to do with being psychic and all about recognizing a writers tendencies and writing style. It's no different than any other creative artwork. Sure they can do something different but by and large the art has signature traits that you can immediately recognize even if you've never seen that particular piece before. Its just good analytics and using your brain. That's all.

[TheMikado]

I don't like it simply for the fact goku and others have been training non stop these last 20-30 years (DBZ years) and out of no where chars (not GOD's) are all of a sudden stronger without an ounce of training (that we know of or shown). It's been said saiyans are the strongest race in the universe and they seem to be surpassed like their nothing.

We don't need to see a characters training for them to be stronger. Especially if they're new characters. That would be silly. And I can't remember if anyone actually says Saiyans are the strongest in the Universe. I think Vegeta might have said it, but he is Vegeta, he tends to boast.

But even if someone did say it we have been constantly shown since early Z, that isn't the case. Freeza and his minons are stronger than most Saiyans. Some evil Scientist in a lab was capable of building beings stronger than saiyans. And in the Buu arc we got introduced to a few different races that dwarf the saiyans. Especially if you count the filler.

And even IF the saiyans were the strongest in the Universe, there is a multiverse now. Being the strongest in their universe doesn't make them the strongest in all universes.

Exactly the argument doesn't make sense. 1) it is true as far as collectively the saiyans are one of the strongest in their own universe when using the Oozaru form which they say multiple times is the source of their true strength. This is actually true because Vegeta as an Oozaru has a power level of 180,000 thus the second strongest after Frieza's clan and well above Ginyu and strongest non-frieza clan character. Anyway the reason the argument doesn't make sense is because that's a completely different universe. Different rules and levels of power. It makes more sense for everyone in a particular universe to be stronger or weaker than to have some really strong outlers for no real reason. It makes more sense for Jiren to be exceptionally strong if all the people from his universe are. In this case he is above average and his deviation from the mean would be less because the mean power of that universe is higher.

Basically let me put it like this:

Goku's universe - Average power level of a being is 5. Goku is a 10 on that scale.
Jiren's universer- Average power level of a being is 10. Jiren is a 20 on that scale.

In both examples they are mathematically twice as strong as the average of their data set and statistically have the same deviation from the mean.
But when you compare Goku's dataset of 10 to Jiren's of 20 there is an even wider gap between the strongest of Goku's universe (Goku) and the strongest of Jiren's universe.
Basically in Jiren's universe Goku could be considered average at best.

[sintzu]

If there ends up being some twist where Jiren was just used to mislead fans from the real threat then I won't be surprised.

What I can see happen is Jerin beats Goku (he did OK at best with UI so I don't see him winning) only for this character you have in mind to beat him which will blow everyone away assuming they don't spoil it.

[Whatever]

Pathetic how? They weren't immediate threats, just like Nappa wasn't a threat to a stronger Goku and Goku was able to overcome the Prince of Saiyans before he goes Oozaru. Just like Imperfect Cell wasn't anything and 19/20 were easily beaten. Just like Babidi's henchmen being weaklings and a weaker Gohan giving the King of the Demon Realm a run for his money even after Dabura powered up in meditation. Black and Zamasu were never the end bosses. The end boss of the Trunks arc was always Merged Zamasu. Everyone else was a weakling by comparison. That's the Toriyama style.

It has ZERO to do with being psychic and all about recognizing a writers tendencies and writing style. It's no different than any other creative artwork. Sure they can do something different but by and large the art has signature traits that you can immediately recognize even if you've never seen that particular piece before. Its just good analytics and using your brain. That's all.

Hit was the main antagonist of the U6 arc and Toyotaro went out of his way to make him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,the point of the U6 was to expand the universe(or rather multiverse this time)to show or rather remind Goku that there is always someone stronger(which is what Toriyama always did).
Black and Zamasu were still the main villains despite not being the 'end bosses',just like 1st and 2nd form Cell was still the main villains despite Super Perfect Cell being the end boss.
Making the main villains such weaklings that get their asses kicked way more times than they kick ass is something Toriyama never did,heck Cell who is the main villain with the worst record and he always was getting even every time he had a poor showing,you know to show he is a threat something that Toyotaro failled to do.

How good analytics must someone have to predict the future?
Because Goku certainly is not the type to use teamwork and neither is Vegeta who even refused to fuse with him in the Future Trunks arc before Trunks convinced him.
And thats without taking into consideration that teamwork has a bad track record for the most part in db.

[Nero<>Akira]

Though i thought the GOD fight itself since the last chapter was all in all great and better than the one in the anime, I can't shake the feeling they will still fight in the anime towards the end of the arc. Being better than the GOD fight in the anime was a given considering it was just 3 GODs anyway. Goku vs Toppo was great, but the anime version is superior honestly. Think it's fine that Toppo in the manga got a good hit in. In the anime, Toppo and Goku seem evenly matched while Goku is in SSB. I think people over exaggerate the "damage" given to toppo in the anime when he literally fixes up his clothes once he powers up and is completely fine afterwards. Grand Priest even implies they're still fairly equal even with Goku using Kaioken. By the way..

[BlueVegerot]

In the anime goku had an ace up his sleeve which would help him beat people he couldn't in blue. That would be kaioken , we knew he could increase his power 10-20 times and anybody outside of jiren would lose to that level of power.

In the manga. Goku doesn't have anything above CSSB. Either they are gonna throw kaioken in the tournament or goku will use the time chamber and come out much stronger like he did during cell arc

[TheMikado]

Pathetic how? They weren't immediate threats, just like Nappa wasn't a threat to a stronger Goku and Goku was able to overcome the Prince of Saiyans before he goes Oozaru. Just like Imperfect Cell wasn't anything and 19/20 were easily beaten. Just like Babidi's henchmen being weaklings and a weaker Gohan giving the King of the Demon Realm a run for his money even after Dabura powered up in meditation. Black and Zamasu were never the end bosses. The end boss of the Trunks arc was always Merged Zamasu. Everyone else was a weakling by comparison. That's the Toriyama style.

It has ZERO to do with being psychic and all about recognizing a writers tendencies and writing style. It's no different than any other creative artwork. Sure they can do something different but by and large the art has signature traits that you can immediately recognize even if you've never seen that particular piece before. Its just good analytics and using your brain. That's all.

Hit was the main antagonist of the U6 arc and Toyotaro went out of his way to make him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,the point of the U6 was to expand the universe(or rather multiverse this time)to show or rather remind Goku that there is always someone stronger(which is what Toriyama always did).
Black and Zamasu were still the main villains despite not being the 'end bosses',just like 1st and 2nd form Cell was still the main villains despite Super Perfect Cell being the end boss.
Making the main villains such weaklings that get their asses kicked way more times than they kick ass is something Toriyama never did,heck Cell who is the main villain with the worst record and he always was getting even every time he had a poor showing,you know to show he is a threat something that Toyotaro failled to do.

How good analytics must someone have to predict the future?
Because Goku certainly is not the type to use teamwork and neither is Vegeta who even refused to fuse with him in the Future Trunks arc before Trunks convinced him.
And thats without taking into consideration that teamwork has a bad track record for the most part in db.

Wait, you're really not making sense at all. Prior to Cell becoming perfect he got his butt handed to him multiple times. Vegeta kicked semi-perfects tail back and forth and the only way he became a viable "non-weak" enemy was through absorption. How is that any different than Black and Zamasu only becoming viable as major threats after they fuse? How is Hit weak??? He's as strong as if not stronger than a SSG???? I'm not understanding how this is not Toriyama's style. This is literally out of his play book. Enemy gets butt kicked. Comes back stronger after some plot device.

[TheMikado]

In the anime goku had an ace up his sleeve which would help him beat people he couldn't in blue. That would be kaioken , we knew he could increase his power 10-20 times and anybody outside of jiren would lose to that level of power.

In the manga. Goku doesn't have anything above CSSB. Either they are gonna throw kaioken in the tournament or goku will use the time chamber and come out much stronger like he did during cell arc

Or go UI, or figure out something completely new. The drama is upped because we don't know what or how he is going to confront or attempt to counter this before we get the new form or if he just goes straight UI.

[Lord Beerus]

The Hakaishin battle royal looks fucking awesome. It felt so brutal, chaotic and destructive (pardon the pun) and is without a doubt the best constructed battle Toyotaro has provided in the manga so far.

Goku vs Toppo felt a bit more abrupt than I thought, but I can appreciate the angle Toyotaro was going for, with putting Toppo over as a huge deal, by having him defeat Goku at his very best quite quickly, to heighten the stakes and hype for when Jiren appears and eventually fights Goku. I personally enjoyed the anime's take on that fight more with it's more ambiguous and neutral approach with Goku's strength compared to Toppo, but the manga's take on the fight was an entertaining alternative. Goku going through all his SSJ form was also nice to see (even though he didn't throw a punch as a SSJ2).

Looks like a really great chapter and I can't wait for the translation.

[Whatever]

Wait, you're really not making sense at all. Prior to Cell becoming perfect he got his butt handed to him multiple times. Vegeta kicked semi-perfects tail back and forth and the only way he became a viable "non-weak" enemy was through absorption. How is that any different than Black and Zamasu only becoming viable as major threats after they fuse? How is Hit weak??? He's as strong as if not stronger than a SSG???? I'm not understanding how this is not Toriyama's style. This is literally out of his play book. Enemy gets butt kicked. Comes back stronger after some plot device.

He got his butt handed to him multiple times but he was always getting even with the opponents they kicked his ass,Vegeta kicked ass and then he kicked Vegeta ass as well.The difference between Black and Zamasu is that Cell never had more defeats than victories unlike them.
Again Hit was the main antagonist of the Champa arcyet Toyotaro made him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,heck he took away Hit's accomplishment of beating Vegeta with the 1/10 power thing,something that Toriyama never did.
When Tien and PiccoloJr appeared they were the main antagonists of the arc just like Hit.Yet they all had great showings unlike manga Hit.

[Dragon Wukong]

Honestly, after seeing Goku straight up ignore SS3 for his fight with Jiren in the anime, despite the point being to show what he has to Jiren, it feels pretty dang good to have SS3 have some spotlight this chapter. SS3 was my favorite as a kid.

Also, I felt like Hit being able to hold his own against Super Saiyan Blue ends up being much more valuable in the manga. Sure "SSBKKX10" wasn't needed, Hit basically held his own against the power of a form that could fight Merged Zamasu later on, and could be "candidate for God of Destruction". (I'm referring to the start-up burst of power anyways, which is equal to Completed SSB.) Considering that's supposed to be near Beerus-level in the manga, that's pretty dang impressive for a random alien, even if it is U6's strongest fighter. And Toyotaro still makes a note to point out that Hit would be much stronger if he was allowed to use his killing techniques.

[perucho1990]

I think Toppo could stomp Goku because Goku is still rusty(he mentioned he hasnt trained at all since the end of the Trunks Arc), he is probably weaker than when he fought Merged Zamasu.

[HeroR]

I don't like it simply for the fact goku and others have been training non stop these last 20-30 years (DBZ years) and out of no where chars (not GOD's) are all of a sudden stronger without an ounce of training (that we know of or shown). It's been said saiyans are the strongest race in the universe and they seem to be surpassed like their nothing.

We don't need to see a characters training for them to be stronger. Especially if they're new characters. That would be silly. And I can't remember if anyone actually says Saiyans are the strongest in the Universe. I think Vegeta might have said it, but he is Vegeta, he tends to boast.

But even if someone did say it we have been constantly shown since early Z, that isn't the case. Freeza and his minons are stronger than most Saiyans. Some evil Scientist in a lab was capable of building beings stronger than saiyans. And in the Buu arc we got introduced to a few different races that dwarf the saiyans. Especially if you count the filler.

And even IF the saiyans were the strongest in the Universe, there is a multiverse now. Being the strongest in their universe doesn't make them the strongest in all universes.

it's kinda of annoying when fans honestly think Saiyans are the only ones allowed to get stronger off-scene because 'Saiyans are the strongest race', when the U7 Saiyans was mostly trash-tier outside of Vegeta before Z started.

[HeroR]

Wait, you're really not making sense at all. Prior to Cell becoming perfect he got his butt handed to him multiple times. Vegeta kicked semi-perfects tail back and forth and the only way he became a viable "non-weak" enemy was through absorption. How is that any different than Black and Zamasu only becoming viable as major threats after they fuse? How is Hit weak??? He's as strong as if not stronger than a SSG???? I'm not understanding how this is not Toriyama's style. This is literally out of his play book. Enemy gets butt kicked. Comes back stronger after some plot device.

He got his butt handed to him multiple times but he was always getting even with the opponents they kicked his ass,Vegeta kicked ass and then he kicked Vegeta ass as well.The difference between Black and Zamasu is that Cell never had more defeats than victories unlike them.
Again Hit was the main antagonist of the Champa arcyet Toyotaro made him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,heck he took away Hit's accomplishment of beating Vegeta with the 1/10 power thing,something that Toriyama never did.
When Tien and PiccoloJr appeared they were the main antagonists of the arc just like Hit.Yet they all had great showings unlike manga Hit.

Technically Champa was the main antagonist of the Champa Saga. Hit was The Dragon as TV Tropes put it.

[TheMikado]

Wait, you're really not making sense at all. Prior to Cell becoming perfect he got his butt handed to him multiple times. Vegeta kicked semi-perfects tail back and forth and the only way he became a viable "non-weak" enemy was through absorption. How is that any different than Black and Zamasu only becoming viable as major threats after they fuse? How is Hit weak??? He's as strong as if not stronger than a SSG???? I'm not understanding how this is not Toriyama's style. This is literally out of his play book. Enemy gets butt kicked. Comes back stronger after some plot device.

He got his butt handed to him multiple times but he was always getting even with the opponents they kicked his ass,Vegeta kicked ass and then he kicked Vegeta ass as well.The difference between Black and Zamasu is that Cell never had more defeats than victories unlike them.
Again Hit was the main antagonist of the Champa arcyet Toyotaro made him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,heck he took away Hit's accomplishment of beating Vegeta with the 1/10 power thing,something that Toriyama never did.
When Tien and PiccoloJr appeared they were the main antagonists of the arc just like Hit.Yet they all had great showings unlike manga Hit.

Yes because the ENTIRE POINT of this series has been that power is NOT everything. I feel like you are missing the theme here. Whis has been saying this since the beginning. It's what the Tournament of Power is based on. Its the premise of BOTH the Champa and Trunks arcs. The antagonists rely on techniques, skills, or abilities which power alone cannot overcome.
Hit manipulates time. Merged Zamasu was immortal, they had to use the demon containment wave because no amount of power was going to let them defeat an immortal. The reality is that the manga and this series has been consistently shouting in our ear that power is not everything. Power is important, it's incredibly important. It's the entire theme of the later half of the Dragonball series. But the antagonists have legitimate ways to mitigate the power differences and that's the point. How do you overcome enemies with overwhelming power in a believable way. This entire series has been about that and forcing them to think about how to attack properly rather than just powering up more.

Goku needed to master the timeskip counter before effectively facing Hit.
Vegeta needed to master the lower SSG to SSB form transformation rather than "getting stronger"
Goku mastered SSB
Goku learned and mastered the demon containment wave
Whis repeatedly tells them to master "move without thinking"

Its a trend. I really do not understand why the enemies being physically weaker is an issue when they were specifically designed with techniques to mitigate the power difference. Again I am not understanding the issue at all. Why is the physical power an issue if the enemies remain plausible threats through other means? The entire kid buu issue was that the monster had regeneration abilities despite being weaker than SSJ3 Goku. The same thing happened with Cell being weaker than Gohan, and the same thing happened with Frieza and being able to not die from being cut in half. This IS what Toriyama has been doing. Again a simple play by play analysis of Toriyama's work reveals that this is his style nearly beat for beat.

[Draconic]

I don't like it simply for the fact goku and others have been training non stop these last 20-30 years (DBZ years) and out of no where chars (not GOD's) are all of a sudden stronger without an ounce of training (that we know of or shown). It's been said saiyans are the strongest race in the universe and they seem to be surpassed like their nothing.

We don't need to see a characters training for them to be stronger. Especially if they're new characters. That would be silly. And I can't remember if anyone actually says Saiyans are the strongest in the Universe. I think Vegeta might have said it, but he is Vegeta, he tends to boast.

But even if someone did say it we have been constantly shown since early Z, that isn't the case. Freeza and his minons are stronger than most Saiyans. Some evil Scientist in a lab was capable of building beings stronger than saiyans. And in the Buu arc we got introduced to a few different races that dwarf the saiyans. Especially if you count the filler.

And even IF the saiyans were the strongest in the Universe, there is a multiverse now. Being the strongest in their universe doesn't make them the strongest in all universes.

it's kinda of annoying when fans honestly think Saiyans are the only ones allowed to get stronger off-scene because 'Saiyans are the strongest race', when the U7 Saiyans was mostly trash-tier outside of Vegeta before Z started.

Saiyan's really were the strongest race. Vegeta was second only to Freeza and most of Freeza's army were all mutants, unrepresentative of their race. Keep in mind most Saiyans conquered planets using their Great Ape forms, not their weak base ones. Ape Vegeta was stronger than Ginyu and Nappa would have been in the ballpark of Recoome/Jeice/Burter. Even weaklings like Raditz would be stronger than most races.

Then, except maybe Yakon, the only stronger characters introduced are either freaks like Freeza and Cold or gods and demons.

However, I do agree with your line of thinking.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Wait, you're really not making sense at all. Prior to Cell becoming perfect he got his butt handed to him multiple times. Vegeta kicked semi-perfects tail back and forth and the only way he became a viable "non-weak" enemy was through absorption. How is that any different than Black and Zamasu only becoming viable as major threats after they fuse? How is Hit weak??? He's as strong as if not stronger than a SSG???? I'm not understanding how this is not Toriyama's style. This is literally out of his play book. Enemy gets butt kicked. Comes back stronger after some plot device.

He got his butt handed to him multiple times but he was always getting even with the opponents they kicked his ass,Vegeta kicked ass and then he kicked Vegeta ass as well.The difference between Black and Zamasu is that Cell never had more defeats than victories unlike them.
Again Hit was the main antagonist of the Champa arcyet Toyotaro made him weaker than both Goku and Vegeta,heck he took away Hit's accomplishment of beating Vegeta with the 1/10 power thing,something that Toriyama never did.
When Tien and PiccoloJr appeared they were the main antagonists of the arc just like Hit.Yet they all had great showings unlike manga Hit.

I had the impression that Toppo was not much stronger than Goku.

Yes, he knocked out the Saiyajin with a kick, so he has to be at least at a close level.

But Goku God was able to hold Pride Trooper's punch with one hand.
Goku Blue's attack also seemed very predictable.

Goku was careless and lost, or Toppo simply took it seriously at the end of the fight (after seeing the SSB) and really is stronger than Goku.

I'm not sure if he used the MSSB, I'll wait for the translation

[HeroR]

Saiyan's really were the strongest race. Vegeta was second only to Freeza and most of Freeza's army were all mutants, unrepresentative of their race. Keep in mind most Saiyans conquered planets using their Great Ape forms, not their weak base ones. Ape Vegeta was stronger than Ginyu and Nappa would have been in the ballpark of Recoome/Jeice/Burter. Even weaklings like Raditz would be stronger than most races.

Then, except maybe Yakon, the only stronger characters introduced are either freaks like Freeza and Cold or gods and demons.

However, I do agree with your line of thinking.

Vegeta was also wanked as the strongest Saiyans ever who surpassed the Saiyan king as a child. So he was an exception, not the rule. Which according to Toriyama most Saiyans were as powerful as Raditz with only a handful of Nappas. We also only know that the Ginyu Force were mutants. We don't know about the other in Freeza's high command like Cui and Zarbon.

Great Ape, while powerful, had their limits, and Toriyama suggested that the Saiyans were weaker for having it since the U6 Saiyans went without tails and on average stronger. We also have the primary reason why Goten and Trunks are so powerful is because they were tailless hybrids. That and the Great Ape was limited to the full moon if the Saiyan didn't know how to create one and if they lose their tails, they lose the form. That and if they didn't train, the Great Ape was a mindless beast.

So yeah, the Saiyans weren't that powerful in the grand scheme of things outside of Vegeta and his father. Especially when the fighting types on Namek were actually on par with Nappa, who was considered a Saiyan elite.

[Zamasu55]

So did Goku use MssjB or not?

[dbgtFO]

So did Goku use MssjB or not?

It seems likely; he was channeling his aura into his fist like against Zamasu, so visually it would seem that's implied.