"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Shaddy]

He's a straight up wizard goat man, doesnt appear to have some BS regen ability. That's a first in Dragonball for a long time. Most characters end up being 'hurrdurr regen'

Zamasu was the only villain in Super that DID have something like that.

Also, being a "straight-up wizard goat man" really doesn't mean a lot when his personality seems mostly flat and even his full power against the Kais was just throwing rocks at them.

and he's only been in one chapter so lets not kid ourselves about how long he's had to compare to characters who had significantly longer publication histories.

Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Buu all had immediately interesting and varied introductions. They evoked different types of intimidation while still being immediately identifiable. Freeza's polite demeanor coupled with his lackeys brutally murdering everyone despite being so obviously below him, Cell's empty city and horror movie monster approach while draining a guy into goo on-sight, Buu completely misdirecting everything by being a jolly bubblegum guy that turns people into candy. Moro is supposed to be mysterious, but when it's already established that he eats planets' energy, is going to get stronger and Goku needs to beat him, where is the mystery? Maybe in his motivation or potential powers, but I don't think those are going to matter much in the longrun, especially when it inevitably turns into the same Dragon Ball fight we've been watching for the last 20 years.

[AnimeNation101]

I really hope this isn't a Toyo exclusive written arc with Toriyama just checking the plot and adding input here and there.

Why? Whats wrong with this being a Toyo-only arc?

....that it's not Toriyama. If it is exclusively written by Toyo, and ideas aren't being given by Toriyama or the narrative isn't being written by Toriyama in any way, then that's an issue.

But... why?

Does a DB story have to be made or thought up by Toriyama for it to be good or enjoyable?

[PFM18]

Why? Whats wrong with this being a Toyo-only arc?

....that it's not Toriyama. If it is exclusively written by Toyo, and ideas aren't being given by Toriyama or the narrative isn't being written by Toriyama in any way, then that's an issue.

But... why?

Does a DB story have to be made or thought up by Toriyama for it to be good or enjoyable?

Well, in this case it certainly appears it is necessary for it to be good or enjoyable considering Toyotaro's propensity to fuck stories up. If he's left unchecked, I'm not confident in our chances for a quality story to be honest.

Also, I'm just generally not as interested in Dragon Ball stories without involvement from the series' creator.

[Kinokima]

We don’t even know what Moro’s true power is but everyone is saying they know. It’s fine to criticize stuff that already happened but people criticizing stuff that hasn’t (saying we know Moro’s true power...actually no we don’t) or that there is no mystery (the arc just started) are kind of jumping the gun.

[Marlowe89]

They really weren’t preparing. Gokou can literally teleport instantly to someone’s location. They got there when Moro got there

Maybe that was an odd choice of words on my part, but I meant that they were standing there in wait as the ship landed. It's just one of a few visual similarities I'd noticed between this arc and the movie.

[Lenny]

I don't think it's fair to call Toyotaro's storytelling bad. This would be a decent structure and pace of it were the first or second arc of a story instead of the beginning of the fifth/sixth/seventh (depending on how you count) arc of Super, the sequel series to a 30 year old manga.

Like Toyotaro is relatively new and it's to be expected that his first outing alone after being guided by a veteran for so long would be lacking. That doesn't give this arc a pass but "propensity to fuck stories up" seems a bit much.

The problem is this arc is, so far, very basic. And that's not something you want to see when you have characters who have been in as many stories as Goku and Vegeta.

[Kanassa]

Also, being a "straight-up wizard goat man" really doesn't mean a lot when his personality seems mostly flat and even his full power against the Kais was just throwing rocks at them.

Maybe he'll upgrade to throwing cubes like Zamasu

[AnimeNation101]

....that it's not Toriyama. If it is exclusively written by Toyo, and ideas aren't being given by Toriyama or the narrative isn't being written by Toriyama in any way, then that's an issue.

But... why?

Does a DB story have to be made or thought up by Toriyama for it to be good or enjoyable?

Well, in this case it certainly appears it is necessary for it to be good or enjoyable considering Toyotaro's propensity to fuck stories up. If he's left unchecked, I'm not confident in our chances for a quality story to be honest.

Also, I'm just generally not as interested in Dragon Ball stories without involvement from the series' creator.

In this case, so far, the arc has been fine. No extreme problems in the writing. Not to mention, its the first time Toyo will actually be able to have an arc before the anime does it since a very small part of the U6 v U7 arc. And if this really IS a Toyo-written arc, it would also be his first of DBS ever. I dont think its fair to call a lack of Toriyama’s involvement in this arc an ISSUE until we start to see extreme stuff that warrants complaints. Imo, you can’t call something that is just fine, a problem just because you anticipate a problem will occur.

As for the whole “involvement of series creator” thing, Toriyama is involved. If Toyo is this arc’s creator, Toriyama just isn’t in the role of the story creator. He’s more of an overseer or editor. Just like how these days, other people give Toriyama ideas for future stuff and he just expands upon it a little and leaves Toei and Toyo to fill in the many blanks.

Also, Toyo has been marketed (lol) as Toriyama’s successor. It also seems that way from there interview interactions. So i feel like Toyo gaining more power was bound to happen and it will continue. So everyone will either have to adapt and get used to it or leave DB.

[AnimeNation101]

Also, being a "straight-up wizard goat man" really doesn't mean a lot when his personality seems mostly flat and even his full power against the Kais was just throwing rocks at them.

Maybe he'll upgrade to throwing cubes like Zamasu

Or... get this... Toyo just doesn’t want to reveal all of Moro’s magical abilities or didn’t think it was worth it for a small 3 page flashback.

Who knows?

[Lenny]

Also so far all this story has done is revisit concepts without adding much new to the mix. Even Moro is just a bigger version of concepts we've already seen. It seems effectively like a filler arc. Or early GT. That said, it's handled those concepts more effectively than the typical anime fare.

Also any one chapter can reverse all of these critiques since it's clear we're still setting up.

What all of this critique culminates in isn't "Toyotaro is a bad writer" but "This story is really boring." And it was kind of doomed to be since being written while Toriyama was busy with Broly potentially makes this an actual filler arc.

[Kanassa]

Also, being a "straight-up wizard goat man" really doesn't mean a lot when his personality seems mostly flat and even his full power against the Kais was just throwing rocks at them.

Maybe he'll upgrade to throwing cubes like Zamasu

Or... get this... Toyo just doesn’t want to reveal all of Moro’s magical abilities or didn’t think it was worth it for a small 3 page flashback.

Who knows?

So... He might throw rocks AND cubes?

[prince212]

We don’t even know what Moro’s true power is but everyone is saying they know. It’s fine to criticize stuff that already happened but people criticizing stuff that hasn’t (saying we know Moro’s true power...actually no we don’t) or that there is no mystery (the arc just started) are kind of jumping the gun.

Just to reinforce your point , last page of last chapter . I doubt his magic was showed in that flashback 10 million years ago

[Miracles]

I really hope this isn't a Toyo exclusive written arc with Toriyama just checking the plot and adding input here and there.

Why? Whats wrong with this being a Toyo-only arc?

I prefer Toriyama. He knows his characters and world better than anybody. I really hope this is a "team up" and not just Toyotaro taking the full frontal of the plot.

I think what TKA is expressing [Correct me when I'm wrong TKA] is that he is not so much concerned with the reused plot format. However, there would usually be some kind of twist in them. He is waiting for the story to take a drastic turn. He used examples with Radditz showing up but a ground breaking revelation was revealed that Goku was an alien and the villain was his brother. One of my all time favorites was this mysterious Super Saiyan showing up casually hacking Freeza only to find out he is from the future and the arc tied back to the red ribbon army. I believe that is what he is trying to get across, so far nothing has "awed" from a narrative standpoint. Mysteries about our characters are still under the rug.

Correct on all counts. I feel like I more than adequately explained my position, so I'm glad someone saw that.

Also, it doesn't matter if concepts are reused or not. It's how you execute that matters. So far, this has been a reused concept that's been played pretty straight. Hence why I keep saying next chapter needs to do something different. If this manga was 15 pages like the old Dragonball, we'd be 7-8 chapters into the current arc, and at this point lots of stuff had happened in previous arcs.

I Wholeheartedly agree with you.

see, normally you would explain how/why it is a "gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation" rather than just saying so.

I think what TKA is expressing [Correct me when I'm wrong TKA] is that he is not so much concerned with the reused plot format. However, there would usually be some kind of twist in them. He is waiting for the story to take a drastic turn. He used examples with Radditz showing up but a ground breaking revelation was revealed that Goku was an alien and the villain was his brother. One of my all time favorites was this mysterious Super Saiyan showing up casually hacking Freeza only to find out he is from the future and the arc tied back to the red ribbon army. I believe that is what he is trying to get across, so far nothing has "awed" from a narrative standpoint. Mysteries about our characters are still under the rug.

See, the problem with that is that an example he gave with BoG, follows almost exactly the same way in terms of the premise that he praised it for. If BoG is an example of something that is praised for it's twist, then so should this arc. And I brought this to his attention, and his response was akin to "Yeah, but that's the problem! they did it first!"(aka he says the reuse is the problem) and then all of a sudden reusing a format is not related to his point and addressing it constitutes a "gross misunderstanding."

That's the thing tho. There has been no twist in this arc yet. The plot pretzel for BOG was immediately introducing god of destruction and the prophetic dream about Super Saiyan god. Something greater than we've seen from Goku. So far nothing groundbreaking from Moro other than some background that he is a universal threat that was sealed up by Dai Kaioshin and needs to be brought back ASAP. I truly believe the "shock factor" is coming when Moro reveals his motives.

[Lenny]

To be honest, having the Kais freak out about Beerus waking up and how Goku definitely couldn't find out about it and then showing his actual personality is already more interesting than Moro being played very straight.

[Kinokima]

We don’t even know what Moro’s true power is but everyone is saying they know. It’s fine to criticize stuff that already happened but people criticizing stuff that hasn’t (saying we know Moro’s true power...actually no we don’t) or that there is no mystery (the arc just started) are kind of jumping the gun.

Just to reinforce your point , last page of last chapter . I doubt his magic was showed in that flashback 10 million years ago

Yeah it’s obvious we haven’t seen what he can do yet. And since Vegeta is obviously more powerful than him raw power may not be enough to take him down.

I just think it’s funny that everyone someone knows what his power is even though it hasn’t been shown. It may very well be a disappointment but shouldn’t we wait and see before criticizing?

[Miracles]

We don’t even know what Moro’s true power is but everyone is saying they know. It’s fine to criticize stuff that already happened but people criticizing stuff that hasn’t (saying we know Moro’s true power...actually no we don’t) or that there is no mystery (the arc just started) are kind of jumping the gun.

Absolutely. The discussions I've seen tho are talking about what we've seen so far. Also, I agree about Moro, we don't know what his true power is. I will go so far to say we shouldn't even assume his Ki will remain the same either. That it could directly grow when he absorbs the living. Moro is no punk, even in his weakened state the dude took a shot from a "stronger than ever" Vegeta red and just seemed more shocked than anything. Yet he is still confident that he will waste Vegeta in his condition. Shall we make funeral arrangements for the prince? lol...

I am very excited about the next chapter.

[Shaddy]

Nobody is acting as if they know the actual real limits of his abilities, just that we have little confidence it'll actually be unique or interesting, from either a visual or narrative perspective. Everything is already cut-and-dry with heroes and villains this arc. The presentation and characterization needs to be firing on all cylinders to make anything other than the usual brand of fighting interesting, something that Toriyama (and even Toei in some cases) has always been much, much better at. It's what carries nearly every other saga, given Toriyama's by-the-seat-of-his-pants writing style. Toyo is just not very good at setting a mood or atmosphere at all, and when your villain's personality amounts to "is bad" as of right now, it means things are going to get real boring real fast, no matter what his oh-so-supposedly-cool powers are supposed to be.

(I should mention that this is the second Toyo character after Merus that has been built entirely around people saying he's cool and impressive rather than him actually just being cool or powerful)

[prince212]

Shall we make funeral arrangements for the prince? lol...

I am very excited about the next chapter.

Ei you , Don’t make fun of the prince !!!
Yeap , I can’t wait for the next chapter, this arc is being nice to me so far, I dig the new characters, don’t agree at all with the trend of “something we saw before” , neither in designs and personalities showed ( so far ) .
Goku is pooping in his pants like never ever , will he fight or just teleport?

Nobody is acting as if they know the actual real limits of his abilities, just that we have little confidence it'll actually be unique or interesting, from either a visual or narrative perspective.

Are you representing a group of people ?
Just curiosity, Few days ago I read that conexion of yours with one big influencer in the fandom

I'm gonna tweet this to geekdom, see if he'll break it down like all those other backwards articles.

[Miracles]

Nobody is acting as if they know the actual real limits of his abilities, just that we have little confidence it'll actually be unique or interesting, from either a visual or narrative perspective. Everything is already cut-and-dry with heroes and villains this arc. The presentation and characterization needs to be firing on all cylinders to make anything other than the usual brand of fighting interesting, something that Toriyama (and even Toei in some cases) has always been much, much better at. It's what carries nearly every other saga, given Toriyama's by-the-seat-of-his-pants writing style. Toyo is just not very good at setting a mood or atmosphere at all, and when your villain's personality amounts to "is bad" as of right now, it means things are going to get real boring real fast, no matter what his oh-so-supposedly-cool powers are supposed to be.

(I should mention that this is the second Toyo character after Merus that has been built entirely around people saying he's cool and impressive rather than him actually just being cool or powerful)

I think this chapter where Moro is facing off against Vegeta is where his presentation and characterization gets expanded on. I'll go so far to even say maybe a "do or die" time to draw fans into Moro. The tone setter for future ventures begins now for him. Let's hope we get Toriyama's character quirks and charm with abilities on display.

Shall we make funeral arrangements for the prince? lol...

I am very excited about the next chapter.

Ei you , Don’t make fun of the prince !!!
Yeap , I can’t wait for the next chapter, this arc is being nice to me so far, I dig the new characters, don’t agree at all with the trend of “something we saw before” , neither in designs and personalities showed ( so far ) .
Goku is pooping in his pants like never ever , will he fight or just teleport?

Who knows, knowing Goku, he may try to fight. However, looking from the narrative it won't matter. Looks like things will get bad, I think he'll head back to Galatic Patrol and agree to extract Dai Kai from Buu. I believe Goku would want to get a shot at him before then.

I forgot you were a Vegeta fan...It's going to be interesting. lol...

[Shaddy]

Are you representing a group of people ?

Look at my posts in this topic, I was defending the opinion that this arc is boring as hell so far, that's all.

Just curiosity, Few days ago I read that conexion of yours with one big influencer in the fandom

There is no "connection". Geekdom posts here, there was a shitty terrible article in the Broly thread, he's deconstructed shitty terrible articles about DB on his channel before, so I decided to tweet it to him. The weird janky writing and grammar of your posts continues to make me not certain if you're trying to be facetious or not.

I think this chapter where Moro is facing off against Vegeta is where his presentation and characterization gets expanded on. I'll go so far to even say maybe a "do or die" time to draw fans into Moro. The tone setter for future ventures begins now for him. Let's hope we get Toriyama's character quirks and charm with abilities on display.

Given how much of this seems to be Toyotaro-only so far, I can't say I'm all that hopeful.