"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Firebolt]

Yikes. Hit is really pathetic in the manga, in both of the arcs he appeared in. At the very least we still get to see the 'Ultimate Tag Team' in action.

[TKA]

There needs to be a better spoiler policy in place here. Seriously. People just freely talking about spoilers and spamming it all over the thread, and made worse by the fact that a real discussion is being interrupted talking about those spoilers. This is compounded by the fact that these "spoilers" are hearsay to the ultimate degree, with no images to justify them.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yikes. Hit is really pathetic in the manga, in both of the arcs he appeared in. At the very least we still get to see the 'Ultimate Tag Team' in action.

He isnt pathetic. He did just as well as a CSSB goku, in fact, both were fighting together, and got stomped together .

He did almost knock jiren out with his time cage.

[sintzu]

I was hoping Hit would get something major before going out but oh well, I guess we can hope his fight with Jiren is good.

I'm surprised Goku fought Jiren this early as I thought he wouldn't till 2 chapters after this one. With Goku not having Omen, I wonder how he'll handle Kefla as there'll be a major difference in her battle power between the anime and manga if Goku takes her out with Blue.

Vegeta's fight with Toppo and/or Dyspo will most likely get interrupted as it's too early for those 2 to go out and for Vegeta to have his big fight.

[Vegeta_Sama]

"Gods" in dragonball have no dignity

Ha! And mortals do?

it's just a job title.

All Shinjin and Angels are Gods, so it's not just a job's title. Although there are some mortals who can become deities through hard-work and dedication.

since it lends credence to Zamas' insane notions that he's above everyone else.

Gods are above everyone else. Gods have the power and right to destroy or create mortal life.They judge all. Mortals are not their equals.

This is a bit overdramatic, don't you think?

[Lord Beerus]

So I'm hearing that that Hit get's jobbed out by Jiren while fighting with SSJB Goku.

Hmm.

I'll take this with a grain of salt until I see the full chapter released.

[jeffbr92]

I'll take this with a grain of salt until I see the full chapter released.

Me too, I mean I'm not much into manga power levels, but Hit is supposed to be equal with SSJB, right?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Cant say i expected more from hit or CSSB Goku. We already saw how far below the CSSB saiyans are from beerus, so the same is expected from jiren. Tho I'm glad we had our dreamteam working together.

[ToshioWrites]

I'll take this with a grain of salt until I see the full chapter released.

Me too, I mean I'm not much into manga power levels, but Hit is supposed to be equal with SSJB, right?

In the anime he was, in the manga , the only thing people have to claim that is that he dodged one kamehameha which doesn’t really prove his power is on that level conclusively

[Exline]

I agree TKA. I saw the spoilers but they shouldn't be talking about spoilers as if others were already spoiled as well. I even put my speculation on Toshio's previous comment in a spoiler in order to make sure no one is exposed to spoiler information. (Sorry for the repeated use of "spoiler", I don't know a synonym for it.)

[LightBing]

I'll take this with a grain of salt until I see the full chapter released.

Me too, I mean I'm not much into manga power levels, but Hit is supposed to be equal with SSJB, right?

In the anime he was, in the manga , the only thing people have to claim that is that he dodged one kamehameha which doesn’t really prove his power is on that level conclusively

Strongly disagree, when Goku says "I'll put everything I got into this" after going out of his way to avoid using Blue and his opponent manages to come out of the smoke relatively fine. Yeah, Hit is Blue in his powered up state.

[ToshioWrites]

Me too, I mean I'm not much into manga power levels, but Hit is supposed to be equal with SSJB, right?

In the anime he was, in the manga , the only thing people have to claim that is that he dodged one kamehameha which doesn’t really prove his power is on that level conclusively

Strongly disagree, when Goku says "I'll put everything I got into this" after going out of his way to avoid using Blue and his opponent manages to come out of the smoke relatively fine. Yeah, Hit is Blue in his powered up state.

And after Goku jumps off, both he and Vegeta tel the other “you could have won that”

In chapter 33 Hit tells Goku “what happened last time won’t happen again”

That can easily be taken to mean Hit wasn’t blue level.

[LightBing]

And after Goku jumps off, both he and Vegeta tel the other “you could have won that”

In chapter 33 Hit tells Goku “what happened last time won’t happen again”

That can easily be taken to mean Hit wasn’t blue level.

Vegeta wouldn't do like Goku and explain his strategy directly to Hit which made the fight actually a fight, because it's Goku. Had Goku just exploded into Blue before and the fight would just be over.
Besides the fact Hit couldn't hold his full power for more than a minute, Goku and Vegeta at that point probably could sustain Blue for more than that. Which is why Hit gives the win to Goku and Goku evaluates that Vegeta would come up on top if he fought against the assassin.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Dragono]

I'll take this with a grain of salt until I see the full chapter released.

Me too, I mean I'm not much into manga power levels, but Hit is supposed to be equal with SSJB, right?

Not in the manga. Beerus said Goku was stronger and Goku said Vegeta could have beaten him as well.

The manga tends to underpower characters

[Miracles]

It took me a while to adequately gather my thoughts on this, but I think I finally understand the vital thing that manga Black lacked from his anime counter-part when it came to his visual composition and characterization, something which was also true for even merged Zamasu in the manga.

The main problem with Toyotaro's interpretation of the Zamasu in all his incarnations, is that he never presents them as the divine, heavenly, godly beings they are supposed to be, something which the anime staff went out of their way to emphasize.

I'll use episode 56 of showcase of how the anime characterized Black and Zamasu as divine, imposing deities through composition and visual story-telling from scene to scene, and I'll start with how Black appears before our heroes.

When summoned, he appears through the nice visual of him being birthed from the clouds, which is a nice little visual motif that already introduces the idea of how Black is of a heavenly nature, something which I think is a nice way of tying back to his appearance in episode 47, where he only really appeared as this mysterious creature that travelled through the clouds above, striking at random.

The tension for the scene is immediately set up with this brilliant shot which immediately establishes where Black stands in comparison to our heroes, with him being a huge dominating figure, who almost appears to be standing on a pedestal above our heroes, who look insignificant in comparison.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Hell, even when we are given a front on shot of Black, its from a low angle, with Black literally looking down his nose at our heroes, something which kind of becomes a repeated theme throughout the episode which gives Black a really "holier than thou" sort of feel to him.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Even when Vegeta turns Blue, he still is framed in a manner which makes them look insignificant in comparison, his still very much on his pedestal despite the appearance of Blue. This, combined with Blacks eerie calmness throughout, do a wonderful job of making the scene extremely tense, as well as creating a sense of intrigue.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Black at that point, is still a presented as a heavenly being above our heroes, who resides in the sky, before the lowly ground dwelling mortals. He only really takes to the ground to battle Vegeta on the level of mortals, and even then, his still shown as an imposing force, with him still looking down his nose at our heroes, or being seen from fairly low angle shots.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
However, since his been grounded at that point, he seen less and less often in low angles, as at that point, his not really above our heroes anymore.

This more grounded, though still intimidating view of Black completely changes with the transformation into Rose, which is just great. One of my favourite parts of it is when Blacks Rose aura literally reaches and cracks open the heavens, showing that it is indeed a power of divine might.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
After the reveal of the transformation, Black again takes his place in the heavens, looking down, and towering over, not only our heroes but everything as far as the eye can see.

Even when our heroes are given prominent space in the frame, there is a real sense of distance between them and Black, with Black still being positioned menacingly above them.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Something I also think is worth mentioning when talking about the anime adaptation of Black, is the sheer of level of character acting involved with selling the narcissistic aspects of his personality. The anime gave Black lots of personality through nothing more than his poses, and they do a fantastic job of selling his flamboyant god complex just as effectively as any speech or line of dialogue could ever hope to. It really gives Black as a character a unique personality that separates him from his other contemporaries.

Be it from him gesturing his arms in order to show his authority(which is framed in manner where he literally towers over everything, again, divine imagery).
[spoiler][/spoiler]
To him sassily gesturing that the now truly insignificant Vegeta's time in the limelight is over, Blacks poses and body language gives a real animated feel to the character that I feel the manga doesn't really capture adequately in its interpretation.
[spoiler]Love how huge and dominating the heavenly Black feels in comparison to the lowly ground bound mortal Vegeta in this shot. Black sassy pose just elevates the dialogue here in all the right ways. Black is literally a giant in comparison.
[/spoiler]
This leads into this great angle, where Vegeta, explodes from the fore-ground, directly at Black in the distant background, which does a good job of conveying Vegeta fighting Black at his own divine level.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Though this isn't necessarily true for every episode in this arc(even though it is for a the majority), where the combat takes place, and where characters are positioned in correlation to one another does a great job of visually conveying where characters stand in relation to one another. In this episode for example, Black goes to down to fight Vegeta on the ground from his domain in the sky, to battle Vegeta on a lesser level. However, as soon as he transforms, all the combat from that point forward takes place in the sky, with Goku and Vegeta flying up in Blue to face him.

Anyway, Vegeta's battle with the newly transformed Black, leads into one of my favourite moments from the arc, Vegeta's sudden and swift impalement, which is even more shocking considering the position of power he seemed to be in over Black during their brief scuffle.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler]Really love the dramatic reveal of this shot, the build up to the reveal only emphasizes how big this moment is, and for me, its one of Black's peak moments.[/spoiler]

Back to what I mentioned earlier about our heroes challenging Black in the sky as Blue, I think Vegeta's fall from grace really does a good job of potraying that, especially with how the fall is timed, with him falling out of Blue right before losing all his bearings flopping to the ground. The fact he flops to the ground immediately after transforming, I believe, does a fantastic job of demonstrating how only Vegeta in Blue could hope to stand up to Black, and without it, he must merely fall back down to the lower mortal level.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
After Vegeta's fall, they fantastically convey Black as this dominant ruler of the heavens, with him not only being positioned at the very top of the frame, but also with him being the centre of the background, with the dark clouds in the sky prominently forming around him. Again, Black is a heavenly divine being, who literally looks down from above to deliver his judgement on mortals. Scenes like this do a fantastic job of characterizing him as such.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Again, this idea of Black fighting opponents of similar stature being demonstrated through characters flying transforming to fly up and meet him is demonstrated perfectly when Goku Blue goes up to confront Black. Immediately when he enters the frame with Black, though himself assuming a position of power, is still inferior and less imposing than the one held by Black.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The next shot however, demonstrates Black and Goku both being higher beings on a relatively similar level though through the low angle framing of the scene and Goku and Black both holding prominent positions. The only real difference hear between the characters, is posture and posing, with Black being in a more upright position than Goku, demonstrating his confidence.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Black re-attains complete dominance of the sky when he literally knocks Goku out of his heavenly realm, back to the mortal ground in which he belongs(something very much in line with Vegeta, though this time, the fact it was Blue that was knocked down, demonstrates that Blue's level of power is below the divinity of Black). This is followed by this great scene where Black, although small, is now literally standing on a pedestal above our protagonists.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Black again pertains his dominance over the action in the frame, again, being the main subject of the scene and standing on a pedestal.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

That is followed by this great perspective shot, that I think beautifully encapsulates how dominant a figure Black is in the anime. Black is huge and towering over the frame like he has not done throughout the entire episode. Goku, whom Black is looking down upon, looks like a mere speck in comparison. In the anime, its shots like this that really sell the absolute threat factor of Black, not merely to Trunks, but to all our protagonists.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This is followed by another great low angle shot of Black in his Kamehameha pose looking down, while filling literally the entire frame, like some form of imposing giant.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

This leads in wonderfully to Zamasu's introduction and the end of the episode. The heavens literally split away to allow Zamasu, covered in divine light to take his place directly beside Black, which does a wonderful job of communicating where these two characters stand with each other(namely as equals), as they both stand on their pedestal above our heroes.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The episode then ends on this fantastic low angle, slightly canted shot, which emphasizes the distance between Goku and Black and Zamasu, both physically and figuratively, with them still being barely visible in the distance, while also completely towering over them.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I could probably do more breakdowns of episodes that had very similar focus on this sort of thing, like episodes 47, 57, 65, and 66, but I think I've communicated my general point.

No one liked Black for ripping open holes in reality just cause.

People liked Black in the anime because they went above and beyond to sell these aspects of his character through careful framing and composition, specifically, the divine heavenly aspect of his character, which I believe is sorely unrepresented in the manga interpretation.

Though I thought Blacks talk in the rain was very uncomfortable in terms of atmosphere, with Black being merely enshrouded in shadows, with several extreme close-ups of parts of his body, I thought how the scene was actually framed at points could be a little stronger, and sadly that kind of atmosphere wasn't consistently captured around the character in the manga.

As for the simultaneous punching panel, I really didn't like that, at all. Its just kind of bleh to me. To me, manga Black, just isn't very interesting outside of a few key scenes, and how he is framed doesn't really help that. He doesn't feel as animated or lively a character as a his anime counter-part, and I would say Toyo completely dropped the ball in capturing any sense of divinity in Black, which is still a major thing about his character in the manga.

I'm sorry for this kind of rambly post, I thank you if you managed to get this far, its just something that I've wanted to get out there. I hope this makes some lick of sense.

____________________


On a completely unrelated note, a lot of people have been saying that Blacks characterization and personality wasn't any different between interpretations, and that's just patently false. There is clear massive difference to how Blacks personality was handled.

In the anime, Black is excessively flamboyant, sinister(fiendish even) and cool headed.

In the manga, Black is extremely blunt, brutal and tempermental.

These were the biggest differences in their characterization.

I'm not stating this an opinion, these are observations about the character that are shown to the audience.

They are completely different characters in their handling, interpretation and execution.

That's the thing tho. This is Dragonball, god's aren't portrayed as serious divine beings. No villain had such status either. They just had a powerful presence with real emotions. Toyotaro understands Dragonball better than TOEI.

[ankokudaishogun]

The main problem with Toyotaro's interpretation of the Zamasu in all his incarnations, is that he never presents them as the divine, heavenly, godly beings they are BELIEVE to be, something which the anime staff went out of their way to emphasize.

Permit me this correction.

As Miracles says, Gods in DB are just people with a job.

But Zamasu really believed Gods should be like what you described, so he acted that way in the anime.

The main difference is, I believe, here:

• Manga Zamasu has a superiority complex.
• Anime Zamasu had a full-on extreme case of God Complex plus Messiah Complex ON TOP of being a super-Narcisist. Which is obviously much more theatrical.

Also, the difference in how Black and Zamasu acted toward each other when under pressure:

• Manga Zamasu doesn't trusts others, even when the other is himself. So under pressure he bited at himself.
• Anime Zamasu only trust himself, but does so much that takes another Self as "still Self" on the spot. Zamasu is Zamasu even if he's another person. So under pressure, Zamasu takes Zamasu's words at face value without any doubt because if Zamasu thought so, then he was right. He was Zamasu, after all.

[emperior]

I
Except the anime has all the god characters say he's out of his mind and isn't being a true god... but then the anime staff has him being treated like a generic anime god. It's a scatterbrained message. In the manga, where he isn't portrayed as some heavenly divine being, other characters telling him he's full of shit actually makes sense and is consistent with what has happened.

While I get your point as to the representation of Gods in Dragon Ball, it seems like Toriyama has changed his mind about Gods in DB for his modern works.
First of all, Beerus got the win in Battle of Gods so that he could preserve his dignity as the mighty God of Destruction, and it hasn't been until the Tournament of Power that mortals being able to surpass his level have been shown.
If Beerus wasn't enough, we also got Whis and the other Angels, who are beings capable of rewinding time and resurrect people with simply a few taps of their magic staff. If that isn't a Godly feat, then tell what is.

As for the Kaioshins, of whom you were talking about, they have always been presented as divine beings above the likes of Kami and King Kai. First of all, in the original manga, Kaioshin was shown to have a Ki no Mortal could sense, he could read minds, had a bodyguard with healing powers and a teleportation technique superior to Goku's and lived on a magic power where not even a battle between Goku, Vegeta, Mr Buu and Kid Buu could do much damage.
Even if you go out saying that Kaioshin was never shown to act as a God or whatever idea you have of a God, Super has pretty much given us information about how Kaioshin really is an incompetent Kaioshin, which is probably because Buu killed his mentors before they could show him how to properly oversee the universe, which also explains why U7's mortal level is so low.

Zamasu was presented as being a Kaioshin in-training, and the training he was receiving from Gowasu was about how to oversee the universe and the mortals inhabitating it. That, for me, is a Godly enough job.

Like it or not, what JazzMazz was trying to convey through his post about 56 was just how much the storyboard and direction of that particular episode sold Goku Black and Zamasu as two formidable foes, and that has nothing to do about it being Dragon Ball-ish or not. Goku Black and Zamasu were still full of shit in the anime, and that was made completely clear in episode 66. The anime gave the audience a much better representation of Goku Black and Zamasu, and that was thanks to all the things JazzMazz talked about in his post.

[Cetra]

Sorry, but this is pure bullshit. Dragon Ball is not a generic anime. Toriyama even stated that what made DB so sucessful is that he took steps without thinking ahead on the future.

I cannot believe that I am using this word and it will be the only time here on kanzenshuu but the only "bullshit" is coming from you guys. Dragon Ball is the very definition of a generic anime. Just because Toriyama-san "lives in the moment" it does not make it less of a generic anime. It is all about the traits. And just like I wanted to tell the other guy before I accidentally deleted my own post: It does not matter who or what is setting the trend. If I decide to run around shirtless and start a hype through which everyone runs around shirtless so it becomes the norm then I am part of the norm. I am not free of this classification just because I was the initiator or was "not thinking about what could happen because of that". Also Dragon Ball is about generic as something can get. It is great that you all want to defend your show like it is something immaculate and original - but it is not. And there is no reason to defend it like it is as Dragon Ball is not God. It is supposed to be a lighthearted comedy, silly, with action and is supposed to entertain with it. And it takes elements from tons of things that happened before it or that happened inbetween the life of those who worked on it (e.g. Toriyama-san). Dragon Ball is absolutely generic. And being influential when it comes to "what newer anime take from it", which is most of the time more for flash and style anyway, will not make it any less generic.

[prince212]

Dragon Ball is the very definition of a generic anime.

I guess it depends how to define what is generic ......

adjective
1 The definition of generic is something without a brand name
2 Generic means something doesn’t have any distinct qualities.

I think db is just a good example of shonnen manga , and lots of the manga that came after db were inspired by it. Same as db was inspired by others ones , but for sure db create a before and after I to the Shōnnen manga

[EGonzo]

Maybe the chapter was so bad that vjump is hesitant on releasing it

Oh god this is gonna be episode 100 all over again.

I think is a great idea that someone took care of the leakers since it can lead to terrible discussion when people jump the gun by one damn page so is better to wait for day 21.

That sounds better than praising something that may not deserve it. I like the manga but there are still problems in it.

While the Manga still have some problems, I definitely think this is Toyotaro Best arc so far, much better than the previous two arcs.

I agree. He is doing great this arc though I do have problems with his pacing. It's going a bit too fast for me.

I'll have to agree too. I've liked the anime version of everything better, but for the ToP I like Toyo's version as much as I like the anime's, with the minor bit of him treating Krillin and Tenshinhan worse than the anime did.