"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

When RoF came out - based largely on that Toriyama interview where he said Goku absorbed the power of God without the need of the ritual - it seemed possible that "base" Goku was at God level. Since then, however, that can no longer be the case. The fact that Goku transforms into God and gets stronger, and is able to transform into a Super Saiyan without becoming Super Saiyan Blue, shows that Goku is not constantly accessing God ki. It's debatably a retcon, but it's been that way since the Universe 6 tournament. In the Tournament of Power, base Freeza is certainly not God-level.

As for how Super Saiyan 2 is represented in the manga, Toytaro has been pretty consistent with it. If you see sparks, it's safe to assume we're seeing Super Saiyan 2.

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

I don't know if it's worth responding since you ignored me but I'l give it a last try. In chapter 35 Goku has no aura, lighting is only present when there's one. All Super Saiyans either SSJ1, 2 or 3 are constantly with an aura and without one. Even if we consider that chapter a blunder from Toyotarõ, you're choosing to ignore all other instances.

Regarding Black, he's the guy who for some reason has eyelights and when turning God his hair turns pink instead of the Blue or Red like Goku. Fair to say he plays by his own rules.

[Bergamo]

When RoF came out - based largely on that Toriyama interview where he said Goku absorbed the power of God without the need of the ritual - it seemed possible that "base" Goku was at God level. Since then, however, that can no longer be the case. The fact that Goku transforms into God and gets stronger, and is able to transform into a Super Saiyan without becoming Super Saiyan Blue, shows that Goku is not constantly accessing God ki. It's debatably a retcon, but it's been that way since the Universe 6 tournament. In the Tournament of Power, base Freeza is certainly not God-level.

As for how Super Saiyan 2 is represented in the manga, Toytaro has been pretty consistent with it. If you see sparks, it's safe to assume we're seeing Super Saiyan 2.

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

I don't know if it's worth responding since you ignored me but I'l give it a last try. In chapter 35 Goku has no aura, lighting is only present when there's one. All Super Saiyans either SSJ1, 2 or 3 are constantly with an aura and without one. Even if we consider that chapter a blunder from Toyotarõ, you're choosing to ignore all other instances.

Regarding Black, he's the guy who for some reason has eyelights and when turning God his hair turns pink instead of the Blue or Red like Goku. Fair to say he plays by his own rules.

Sorry, I didn't see your last post. To be honest, if Vegeta just had visual differences, then this would be so much clearer.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I don't think so.

Besides, I thought it was implied before: while we can't affirm or deny with 100% of certain the existence of Beyond God (and we can't, period), TO ME is a thing and can explain a lot of things in the anime.

It was already and very clearly bullshit before, but the ToP reintroducing SSG settled it. You think it explains a lot of things? Even if it was true (which it isn't btw) for every thing it explained, 10 more get fucked up. You can't just bring your own headcanon in an argument, that's not how it works. We gotta work with what the show gives us. To answer your first point, we can deny its existance, because there have been no hints of it existing in the first place.

[SSJgogeto]

Nah, that's wrong.

Just because you don't want to see doesn't mean isn't there, you know. Also, I really don't know why you are freaking out, I just said that MisteryOne can't prove what he was saying, and you jumped into conclusions.

[batistabus]

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Nah, that's wrong.

Just because you don't want to see doesn't mean isn't there, you know. Also, I really don't know why you are freaking out, I just said that MisteryOne can't prove what he was saying, and you jumped into conclusions.

Fist off, let me say that if you think I'm freaking out, you must have some pretty horrible comprehension skills. Nowhere did I ever state something that would make anybody think that. That's ridiculous. This is a forum, people write what they want, if I see some bullshit in what you wrote, I'l gonna write about it.
Back on the topic, you kinda contradicted yourself: first you say that it's just your opinion, then you try to pass it off as an indeniable fact. It's either one or the other pal. And the facts say that it's the former. We can prove it, because when there is no indication of it even existing in the show, that basically confirms that it doesn't exist. You're putting something there where it shouldn't be. It would be the equivalent of me arguing the point that Vegeta is bisexual because we have no indication of him not liking the male reproductive organ. See? It's the same, it's putting something that has no place in the show, and argue its existance by saying that you have no proof of it not beign true. But There's no point in even bringing it up, because it's completely disassociated with the information that the show gives you. The example I provided is a little out there, but that's basically what you're doing now. If the show wanted to let you know about it, they would have explained it clearly

[SSJgogeto]

Well, if you think I'm saying some bull you can just ignore that, people usually do this with newbies here. That's why I think you're freaking out.

And you're wrong again. I never said "is a fact", you just jumped into conclusions AGAIN. Also, there some evidences of Beyond God in the show, so your comparison with Vegeta don't make sense.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Well, if you think I'm saying some bull you can just ignore that, people usually do this with newbies here. That's why I think you're freaking out.

And you're wrong again. I never said is a fact, you just jumped into conclusions AGAIN. Also, there some evidences of Beyond God in the show, so your comparison with Vegeta don't make sense.

I see something wrong, a newbie mistake, and I correct it, There's no rules anywhere that say that I can't do it.
I'm not the one who said it was a fact, you did: "Just because you don't want to see doesn't mean isn't there, you know" why would you say that if it's just your opinion? There's no evidence of "Beyong God", the whole forum discussed it years ago, it's just not a thing. You can't just come up years later and bring up a previous, already sorted out, discussion point completely disregarding the conclusions the community came up with. And saying that the comparaison makes no sense without even arguing why is the easiest way out possible, and it just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Also, no, I'm not going to ignore you just cause you're a newbie, I don't have shit to do, so I'm free to use this forum for its intended purpose: discussion

[SSJgogeto]

See? That's why I'm saying you're freaking out

Well, seems like I'm barking up the wrong tree here, so I'll end this discussion (in my side) with this post because this is getting boring. First one, you're the one who bring the "fact" thing here first:

To answer your first point, we can deny its existance, because there have been no hints of it existing in the first place.

To me seems like a affirmation, not a opinion. In my case, things work that way:

1 - Beyond God is a thing, and that's my opinion.
2 - We can't affirm or deny with 100% of certain the existence of Beyond God, and that's a fact.

And about your comparision, it don't make sense because yes, there are evidences of Beyond God in the show, which is not the case with your supposition about Vegeta's preferences. Also, although I'm new here I've been following the forum for some time, and there was never a consensus on this subject (Beyond God, not Vegeta ).

[Vegeta_Sama]

See? That's why I'm saying you're freaking out

Still nope, just have a lot of time on my hands. You certainly wouldn't be able to perceive if someone on the other side of the planet is freaking out or not through a monitor, unless you have magic powers. Last time I checked I didn't send you a pictue with ny expression, so why would you have any credibility on this?

Well, seems like I'm barking up the wrong tree here, so I'll end this discussion (in my side) with this post because this is getting boring. First one, you're the one who bring the "fact" thing here first:

To answer your first point, we can deny its existance, because there have been no hints of it existing in the first place.

To me seems like a affirmation, not a opinion. In my case, things work that way:

Well, I'm not going to end it here, I'll have the last word, and the last laugh, while you give up, knowing you're supporing a bullshit theory

1 - Beyond God is a thing, and that's my opinion.

These two things can't really coexist togheter. Something that is up for debate is not a fact (or a thing, in your words). Come on, you're making this easy for me, you contradict yourself in the same sentence

2 - We can't affirm or deny with 100% of certain the existence of Beyond God, and that's a fact.

We CAN deny it, cause it doesn't show up at all, so there's nothing to even argue, it's just fan fiction.

And about your comparision, it don't make sense because yes, there are evidences of Beyond God in the show, which is not the case with your supposition about Vegeta's preferences

No, they're on the same level, nobody mentioned anything about a Saiyan God in 131 episodes of Super, and the inclusion of actual SSGOD in the ToP put the fan theories to rest.

Also, although I'm new here I've been following the forum for some time, and there was never a consensus on this subject (Beyond God, not Vegeta ).

I've been lurking the forum ever since I was a little kid, long long before BoG even came out, I know what was discussed and what wasn't. This debate started getting more and more brought up with RoF, after the fight of Base Goku vs Final Form Frieza, and it continued throughout DBS, until SSG came back in the ToP, where everyone agreed that it would be stupid to have both ''Beyond God'' and ''SSG'' because they technically have the same power, so there's no point of there beign two ways to achieve it, and having the former meant that the latter would be 2 times stronger, which is absolute bullcrap. Also, why would they use SS 1-2-3 if they supposedly have this saiyan god thing that's stronger than all of them without even transforming? MAKES NO SENSE

[Bergamo]

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

[alakazam^]

and there was never a consensus on this subject (Beyond God, not Vegeta ).

This is true and the main piece of "evidence" is base Goku fighting final form Freeza. That's why people can't properly gauge how strong the Universe 6 fighters are.

[SSJgogeto]

Yeah, I heard that before.

[STH]

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

We can not always decide according to the hairstyle. For example Vegeta's hairstyle never changes when he turns to ssj1-2. But if he turns to ssj2, then he has electricity. That's why we know he turns to ssj2.

So, black turns to ssj2 in chapter 19.

[Bergamo]

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

We can not always decide according to the hairstyle. For example Vegeta's hairstyle never changes when he turns to ssj1-2. But if he turns to ssj2, then he has electricity. That's why we know he turns to ssj2.

So, black turns to ssj2 in chapter 19.

Goku isn't always drawn with lightning in SS2, but he is ALWAYS drawn with different hair.

[Marlowe89]

In Black's case, the lightning might just be to highlight the fact that he's not quite an ordinary Saiyan because of his status as a deity inhabiting a Saiyan's body. Otherwise, I'm convinced that it's just the first Super Saiyan form due to the appearance of its hair. Vegeta could compete only because his enhanced Super Saiyan 2 form is incredibly strong itself, as the BoG arc demonstrates.

[Saiga]

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

We can not always decide according to the hairstyle. For example Vegeta's hairstyle never changes when he turns to ssj1-2. But if he turns to ssj2, then he has electricity. That's why we know he turns to ssj2.

So, black turns to ssj2 in chapter 19.

Goku isn't always drawn with lightning in SS2, but he is ALWAYS drawn with different hair.

SS2 Goku always has lightning when his aura is visible.

I agree that Black was a SS1, and remains an outlier which isn't much of a surprise given that it is Black.

[batistabus]

Toyotaro has not been consistent. In Chapter 35 every panel of SS2 Goku is missing lightning, and in Chapter 19 most panels of SS1 Goku Black have lightning.

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

After revisiting the chapter, I'm not as confident that it's SS2, but I still think that it could be...or at least, that something else is at play. I suppose the hair does look more like Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan 2, but it doesn't look totally on-model to Toyo's Super Saiyan 1, either. Since he never drew regular Super Saiyan with electricity before or since, and because it's a pretty simple style distinction to remember, it makes me think the electricity is intentional...but I'm not sure what he would be going for. Blue and Rosé have slightly different designs, so maybe he wanted to give Black's SS2 a different look? Or perhaps Black didn't have the catalyst to achieve a Super Saiyan 2 transformation, but but had more than enough power, so electricity was added to his form.

Anyway, those are just guesses - and pretty weak ones, I'll admit - so I'll concede the point. I had just assumed that it was Super Saiyan 2 until now.

[prince212]

My point is that characters don't have electricity unless they're Super Saiyan 2. Goku Black is Super Saiyan 2 in chapter 19.

Goku Black is factually SS1 in that fight. When Goku is SS2 his hair spikes up and he loses most of his bangs, but Black clearly has the SS1 hairstyle.

After revisiting the chapter, I'm not as confident that it's SS2, but I still think that it could be...or at least, that something else is at play. I suppose the hair does look more like Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan 2, but it doesn't look totally on-model to Toyo's Super Saiyan 1, either. Since he never drew regular Super Saiyan with electricity before or since, and because it's a pretty simple style distinction to remember, it makes me think the electricity is intentional...but I'm not sure what he would be going for. Blue and Rosé have slightly different designs, so maybe he wanted to give Black's SS2 a different look? Or perhaps Black didn't have the catalyst to achieve a Super Saiyan 2 transformation, but but had more than enough power, so electricity was added to his form.

Anyway, those are just guesses - and pretty weak ones, I'll admit - so I'll concede the point. I had just assumed that it was Super Saiyan 2 until now.

Not that I care so much... but after 2 pages of comments about that subject I went to read chapter 19.
As the way black goku looks I can’t say one or the other , but the dialogue with vegeta saying let’s go blue already , makes me think that they were fighting in ss2 , otherwise vegeta would make fun of him about not being able to pull ss2 like he said about not doing the blue ...
Btw that chapter is awesome , too bad that they translate Beerus hakai as begone , I’d rather keep the hakai terminologie with a small down note saying it means destruction......

[Saiga]

I think it's important to note that Black's original design had the regular Super Saiyan in it, which is why Black has that ability in the manga. Plus Trunks and Mai recognize it as Super Saiyan when Trunks knows about Super Saiyan 2.