"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

Goku's confidence is a fine line to walk, and for me Toyotaro didn't manage it this chapter. Mostly in how, bizarrely, he wasn't taking Toppo seriously; disrespecting him with condescension even. In the anime Goku displayed pure confidence, but that's the thing: Goku was completely sure of himself, but from the start he gave Toppo the respect as a fighter he knew he deserved. You can be confident in your abilities while simultaneously give proper respect for your opponent's. At least he got Goku's attitude when losing right, though.

"What's going on? My transformations are useless."

"Toppo's cool."
"He's strong even without transforming."

More hamfisted foreshadowing?

Wasn't Goku testing Toppo by going Super Saiyan, and he was basically forced to show his other transformations for Zeno's entertainment?
And Zeno's line is definitely some foreshadowing, the very concept of being strong without transforming was first introduced in Buu arc with Gohan, and it was re-introduced with Whis' training. It seems like Toriyama's end goal is to have Goku (and Vegeta too, maybe) being as strong as possible without using transformations, which have always shown to have drawbacks. This is perfectly on line with Toriyama's trademark "simplicity" - just look at Freeza, whose final form was a simple as it could be. Dragon Ball itself is the definition of simple, it doesn't take itself too seriously and the stories and characters aren't overly complicated.
As I said many times already, I wish that Goku and Vegeta would just drop all their transformations - that's why I hope Ultra Instinct is the last transformation Goku gets, and one which makes him strong without needing to transform. The little visual change (silver eyes and slightly uplifted hair) would just make it clear to the audience when Goku is actually using Ultra Instinct, and it looks simple and cool.
The moving without thinking part is one of the best ideas Toriyama has ever had, this teaching is also the first one Bruce Lee gives in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Considering Dragon Ball took inspiration from Lee's movies, I like how Toriyama is still taking inspiration from him.
Ultra Instinct alone, for me, makes Super really worth it as a sequel.

[Kanassa]

Am I the only one who finds the Goddess pulling out a bow a bit boring?

Ah, so it's officially confirmed that the Grand Priest is the father of all the angles?

Ha, even Zeno makes fun of Super Saiyan 2

"My transformations are useless. What's going on?!" Seriously, Goku? SERIOUSLY!?

You know Ii'm starting to think Goku lost this battle less because Toppo is stronger and more because he stayed in Super Saiyan 3 for too long. Hell, Toppo seems less strong, and more just really agile.

And yeah, while the fight was a huge step up and was pretty entertaining to look at, the manga still falls flat of injecting personalty into the characters. Still, I actually enjoyed this chapter.

[JazzMazz]

Am I the only one who finds the Goddess pulling out a bow a bit boring?

Ah, so it's officially confirmed that the Grand Priest is the father of all the angles?

Ha, even Zeno makes fun of Super Saiyan 2

"My transformations are useless. What's going on?!" Seriously, Goku? SERIOUSLY!?

You know Ii'm starting to think Goku lost this battle less because Toppo is stronger and more because he stayed in Super Saiyan 3 for too long. Hell, Toppo seems less strong, and more just really agile.

And yeah, while the fight was a huge step up and was pretty entertaining to look at, the manga still falls flat of injecting personalty into the characters. Still, I actually enjoyed this chapter.

I would say the GoDs of destruction have more personality, but Toppo kind of falls flat personality wise.

[Draconic]

Terrific chapter! Probably my favorite one in the manga so far!

The God of Destruction battle was stupid good! It's certainly a step into the right direction, torwards what I want to see from a Battle Royale. Every event flows into another to great effect, there's cool abillties on display, big moments capture the attention of everybody on the arena. A great taste of things to come! Very very well constructed.

The Goku vs Toppo battle, while a bit on the short side, is very nice. A couple of reused panels, as usual, but they're much better implemented here. Toppo's kick is especially brutal looking and, while the reference is quite obvious, it comes at just the right moment and is drawn beautifully brutal that it doesn't take away me out of the story.
I also love how Goku is going trough all his transformations against Toppo. Though a bit tired at this point, as between the manga and anime this is like the fifth time it happens, I think it is a good thing to affirm the position Goku finds himself in, transformation-wise, at the beginning of the arc where he unlocks a new one (or where he drops them entirely, which is a possiblity in the manga).
Goku losing is a great turn of events, but as the dialogue shows, he's still in the same league as Toppo (called it btw). It kinda diminishes the whole set-up thing, seeing as having Toppo full on stronger than him would be pretty terrible for Goku and co when Jiren finally steps in, but it at least manages to establish that this Tournament isn't and event to take lightly.
However, seeing as the fight was supposed to end in Goku's defeat, I would have liked to see a little more cut out of it to make room for more God battle goodness, but that's probably just me loving that fight so much that I want more of that and less and issue with the chapter itself. Can't say it didn't acomplish its task to hype me up even more for the Battle Royale!

Also, is it me or is Toppo winning Toyotaro's way of responding to the criticisim he gets for having poor ass antagonists? Either way, a great choice!

One flaw I can point to though is that, while Liquir has probably the coolest special attack out of anything I've seen a God of Destruction ever do (including Beerus), Helles and Belmond are... kinda boring? I mean, Belmond's was much better than what I was expecting when I first read the spoilers, but I can't say the attack itself is that great. And Helles... god damn... a literal bow and arrow? Don't get me wrong, I loved her and Liquir's little moment and it looked great... but it's still just a bow...

The other big flaw... Fucking Goku is terribly written this chapter. Him being cocky then getting his shit kicked is so old by now, especially when it's pretty much something made up for the modern material. It worked in Battle of Gods, when Goku was at the top of the food chain, but after getting shat on by Sorbet's ring he still can't shut his goddamn mouth? I mean, he's cocky in the anime (against Toppo nonetheless) and he drops his guard in the anime, but the two don't really go together anymore. There he's usually backing up his cockiness. Luckly the Goku being evil thing is an anime only thing, cause I don't see Toyotaro being able to pull that off.

Anyway, sadly next chapter is probably going to be a cooldown one. I feel we have at least two more until the actual Tournament, which is making me sad. Next month I feel we get the recruitment of the humans and Gohan/Piccolo, while two months from now we'll have a 17/Freeza chapter.

[BrolyKale]

Toppo says he's the second strongest in his universe... Jiren is the strongest and he is stronger than Belmod, right? so does that mean that Toppo is also stronger than Belmod?

[HeroR]

I'm guessing that Toei wants a new transformation every arc for money, video games, merchandise, and etc, but Toriyama originally intended for Goku to just use SSJG and SSJB against Hit. The same goes for SSJ Rage for Trunks in the Zamasu arc and how i'm guessing Toriyama only wanted Trunks to just be a bit stronger than SSJ3 like in the manga.

Lot of assumption in this post.

..And he made us aware of that by literally writing that he is guessing, while you on the other hand just so happen to omit writing, that you are merely guessing too, when you state that Toei would put it in the show, if it was in the outline.

If Super Saiyan God was in the online, why would Toei omit it?

[dbgtFO]

Lot of assumption in this post.

..And he made us aware of that by literally writing that he is guessing, while you on the other hand just so happen to omit writing, that you are merely guessing too, when you state that Toei would put it in the show, if it was in the outline.

If Super Saiyan God was in the online, why would Toei omit it?

We can only guess, both in whether or not they'd always follow the outline and if not, why they'd decide not to.

[HeroR]

We can only guess, both in whether or not they'd always follow the outline and if not, why they'd decide not to.

Again, why would the anime skipped Super Saiyan God if it was in the outline? In the Champa Saga specifically, the fights between Magetta and Cabba were almost the same in both version, yet the Hit vs. Goku fight was very different in both. Why would Toei stick so closely to the outline for those previous fights, but then just decide not to used Super Saiyan God if Toriyama specifically said "Goku goes Super Saiyan God". The same in the Future Trunks Saga since Goku used Super Saiyan God in the manga, but not in the anime. So what reason would Toei have for skipping it, but decided to bring it back now in the Universal Survival Saga?

[dbgtFO]

We can only guess, both in whether or not they'd always follow the outline and if not, why they'd decide not to.

Again, why would the anime skipped Super Saiyan God if it was in the outline? In the Champa Saga specifically, the fights between Magetta and Cabba were almost the same in both version, yet the Hit vs. Goku fight was very different in both. Why would Toei stick so closely to the outline for those previous fights, but then just decide not to used Super Saiyan God if Toriyama specifically said "Goku goes Super Saiyan God". The same in the Future Trunks Saga since Goku used Super Saiyan God in the manga, but not in the anime. So what reason would Toei have for skipping it, but decided to bring it back now in the Universal Survival Saga?

It doesn't matter what reasons I come up with, the idea is they could have for whatever reason, however we just don't know, so saying either or, as if it's a certainty is pretty poor.

[Noah]

"Toppo's cool."
"He's strong even without transforming."

More hamfisted foreshadowing?

That means Toppo also has a transformation? I wonder if it is the mustacheless one

[BlueVegerot]

We can only guess, both in whether or not they'd always follow the outline and if not, why they'd decide not to.

Again, why would the anime skipped Super Saiyan God if it was in the outline? In the Champa Saga specifically, the fights between Magetta and Cabba were almost the same in both version, yet the Hit vs. Goku fight was very different in both. Why would Toei stick so closely to the outline for those previous fights, but then just decide not to used Super Saiyan God if Toriyama specifically said "Goku goes Super Saiyan God". The same in the Future Trunks Saga since Goku used Super Saiyan God in the manga, but not in the anime. So what reason would Toei have for skipping it, but decided to bring it back now in the Universal Survival Saga?

Why would hit have rapid improvement in the anime but not in the manga?

[Doctor.]

Shouldn't Goku be able to sense God Ki? Why is he saying he can't sense Toppo or the Gods of Destruction? I'm pretty sure he sensed how much Ki Vegeta lost back in the U6 arc and IT'd to either Beerus or Zamasu at some point.

[TheMikado]

..And he made us aware of that by literally writing that he is guessing, while you on the other hand just so happen to omit writing, that you are merely guessing too, when you state that Toei would put it in the show, if it was in the outline.

If Super Saiyan God was in the online, why would Toei omit it?

We can only guess, both in whether or not they'd always follow the outline and if not, why they'd decide not to.

Well we know for a fact that Toriyama made a note about Black having Yellow SSJ and Toei didn’t show it where the manga did so who knows...

[Kanassa]

Shouldn't Goku be able to sense God Ki? Why is he saying he can't sense Toppo or the Gods of Destruction? I'm pretty sure he sensed how much Ki Vegeta lost back in the U6 arc and IT'd to either Beerus or Zamasu at some point.

I don't think it's him being unable to sense God Ki and more of him not being able to sense the ki of people of other universes. This was in the anime too.

[Dragon Wukong]

Shouldn't Goku be able to sense God Ki? Why is he saying he can't sense Toppo or the Gods of Destruction? I'm pretty sure he sensed how much Ki Vegeta lost back in the U6 arc and IT'd to either Beerus or Zamasu at some point.

Isn't that only while he's Super Saiyan God or SSGSS? BoG kinda implied that I thought.

[The gr]

Shouldn't Goku be able to sense God Ki? Why is he saying he can't sense Toppo or the Gods of Destruction? I'm pretty sure he sensed how much Ki Vegeta lost back in the U6 arc and IT'd to either Beerus or Zamasu at some point.

He could only sense god ki if he using it

I loved this chapter,the action with the gods was really good and chaotic like an actual battle royale,dissapointed on some of the other gods and helles bow look dull but i liked rumosh,mosco,vermoud and liquir.I also liked the joke of the omni kings finding the match too boring and violent cancelling to the point he want to erase the 8 universe rigth now .

Now toppo joins the match,let me say this the bout between goku vs toppo was well drawn and is probaly one of my favorite batte rivaling goku vs MZ and trunks vs black first encounter.

Toppo is not yelling justice here and is kinda flat, he needs more interaction with his pals and a hammy personality which i will wait

He broke the streak of the manga having weak antogonist which is a relief because i was worry on how they were about to handle jiren.This chapter was good,this some of the best action toyo has done.

[Doctor.]

Shouldn't Goku be able to sense God Ki? Why is he saying he can't sense Toppo or the Gods of Destruction? I'm pretty sure he sensed how much Ki Vegeta lost back in the U6 arc and IT'd to either Beerus or Zamasu at some point.

I don't think it's him being unable to sense God Ki and more of him not being able to sense the ki of people of other universes. This was in the anime too.

Just U9. He used IT against other characters, I'm sure.

He could only sense god ki if he using it

That's dumb. It's supposed to be a skill. Again, he sensed that Vegeta's Ki went down in the U6 arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Another great chapter from Toyotaro, but there were some issues I had with this chapter. More-so than last months chapter:

- The Hakaishin battle royal was magnificent. It felt so brutal, chaotic and destructive (pardon the pun) and is without a doubt the best constructed battle Toyotaro has provided in the manga so far. *Nearly every Hakaishin had their own distinctive ability or technique I found a excellent touch (*Quitela and Iwne got nothing. ). And some of the abilities were underwhelming. (I mean, just a bow and arrow for Helles? Seriously? And Arack and Geene got just generic Ki blast attacks.)

- I found Zeno stopping the Hakaishin battle royal for being too intense, loud and boring to be really, really, really dumb. I felt more blue-balled by this by than Grand Priest stopping the match between Goku and Toppo. And at least in that scenario there was a more believable reason given (Either Goku and Toppo could end up dying going all out and taking away a possibly very exciting element from the Tournament Of Power). I can't imagine how Zeno will satisfied with the actual tournament Of Power. Because if he finds 8 power being fighting each other too much to handle, loud and boring, then I can't imagine how he'll be possibly happy with the 80 people fighting each other at the same time.

- I'm caught in two minds about Toppo and Goku, and more specifically, the nature of how Goku lost the battle:

-- On one hand, Goku losing the fashion he did raises the stakes considerably and provides an even greater amount of hype and anticipation for when Jiren arrives and truly reaffirms the scenario of Velmoud selecting Toppo to be next Hakaishin of Universe 11. And it also provide more incentive for Goku to recruit a character such as Freeza. But at the same time, you have to wonder what kind of gimmick (prior to attaining Ultra Instinct) Goku is going to get if he fights Toppo again at the Tournament Of Power. Because now we know that SSJB can't get the job done against a fighter like Toppo. This is where the I believe the fight between SSJB Goku and Toppo being inconclusive in the anime works to its advantage because it creates a great amount of intrigue to when/if Goku and Toppo skirmish again. I also think this would be the perfect time for Toyotaro to throw Kaioken into the mix with SSJB in battle if there is going to be a solution for Goku improving himself in battle in preparation for the Tournament Of Power.

-- Goku vs Toppo also felt a bit more abrupt than I thought. But I can appreciate the angle Toyotaro was going for, with putting Toppo over as a huge deal, by having him defeat Goku at his very best quite quickly, to heighten the stakes and hype for when Jiren appears and eventually fights Goku. I personally enjoyed the anime's take on that fight more with it's more ambiguous and neutral approach with Goku's strength compared to Toppo, but the manga's take on the fight was an entertaining alternative. Goku going through all his SSJ form was also nice to see (even though he didn't throw a punch as a SSJ2).

- I was a bit disappointed in the lack of character in Toppo in the chapter. Not that it's a necessarily bad thing, but I appreciate how the anime added more flair and depth to his character. In the anime, Toppo acts very exuberant in battle. But we see outside of his duties as a Pride Trooper he's a very level headed, contemplative, down-to-earth and relaxed person. And he's also very serious about his job and status as a Pride Trooper and very much deeply cares about the fate of his teammates as well as his entire universe. So while Toppo can be very outward with his duties as Pride Trooper, he can also be very thoughtful, reflective and dedicated. I just found his character in the anime more layered and fleshed out. I'm hoping the manga give us a bit more to chew on with his character. I don't want Toppo to be a flat character and/or just an obstacle for Goku.

[LightBing]

What a fun read, it's one of those chapters that end in the blink of an eye.

Yeah seems like Toppo isn't stronger or at least much stronger than Goku. Who had the handicap of showing off his transformations, including SSJ3, suffered a free hit because of the no fly rule and in the end was surprised by Toppo's counter due to overconfidence.

[The gr]

That's dumb. It's supposed to be a skill. Again, he sensed that Vegeta's Ki went down in the U6 arc.

Then is a plot hole

- I was a bit disappointed in the lack of character in Toppo in the chapter. Not that it's a necessarily bad thing, but I appreciate how the anime added more flair and depth to his character. In the anime, Toppo acts very exuberant in battle. But we see outside of his duties as a Pride Trooper he's a very level headed, contemplative, down-to-earth and relaxed person. And he's also very serious about his job and status as a Pride Trooper and very much deeply cares about the fate of his teammates as well as his entire universe. So while Toppo can be very outward with his duties as Pride Trooper, he can also be very thoughtful, reflective and dedicated. I just found his character in the anime more layered and fleshed out. I'm hoping the manga give us a bit more to chew on with his character. I don't want Toppo to be a flat character and/or just an obstacle for Goku.

I'm sure toppo will get some character in the recruitment since the exhibition is just a friendly match,after all he is the leader of the pride tropper and he along with dyspo and jiren will have a lot screen time in this phase

What a fun read, it's one of those chapters that end in the blink of an eye.

Yeah seems like Toppo isn't stronger or at least much stronger than Goku. Who had the handicap of showing off his transformations, including SSJ3, suffered a free hit because of the no fly rule and in the end was surprised by Toppo's counter due to overconfidence.

I say ssb goku is a 9.8 meanwhile toppo is a 10,thats how i scale them