"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

I dig Ultra Instinct here but I feel as though both versions were a missed opportunity when it comes to characterization. You guys know that scene of Rock Lee getting back up to fight Gaara even after two of his limbs get crushed? That's kind of what I wish they did with UI: Goku is absolutely nothing but a fighting machine, almost like a zombie or puppet.

Gohan vs Goku episode 90. Maybe Gohan gets UI next

Go...who? I mean I heard of a Goten. He seems to be in the newest movie. You sure you don't mean Goten? The Go whoever isn't in the next movie it seems so surely they're not important

[RandomGuy96]

Alright, Manga Jiren and Anime Jiren have completely different personalities and motivations. To the point where Anime Jiren would actually make a pretty good villainous foil for Manga Jiren in a regular superhero story. What gives? Did Toei try to make Jiren a huge heel to wank off Goku, or did Toriyama not even bother to give Jiren any hint of a personality in the outline beyond "he's quiet and strong" and "his friends, family, and master were killed when he was young", leaving Toyotaro and Toei to essentially make their own characters?

In the anime Toei did a great job in making him feel unstoppable, while in the manga he seems to be much weaker.

In the anime they seemed to be going out of their way to make him look like a jobber while still having the same technical outcome. In the manga he cleanly beats MUI Goku.

[OhHiRenan]

Easily the best chapter of the Tournament of Power so far. I really love what Toyotaro’s done with Ultra Instinct. It isn’t just some “transform to win” power up. While it does push Jiren back considerably, Goku obviously hasn’t trained it so he ultimately can’t defeat Jiren. The action was fast and better choreographed than usual. I’m happy with the fight.

I’m much happier with the ending of the chapter, though. Vegeta actually feels like his Boo arc self and Goku & Vegeta fighting in sync is genius. I loved Goku/17/Freeza in the anime, but this is a great alternative that honesty only makes sense in the context of Whis’ training.

I also prefer Jiren’s backstory here than in the anime. Dyspo’s right, it makes Jiren almost seem normal. I love that such a personal insecurity is driving him and that, even if he were to revive his master, Gicchin would not be impressed with who Jiren has become. That’s some solid writing.

[1345521]

Easily the best chapter of the Tournament of Power so far. I really love what Toyotaro’s done with Ultra Instinct. It isn’t just some “transform to win” power up. While it does push Jiren back considerably, Goku obviously hasn’t trained it so he ultimately can’t defeat Jiren. The action was fast and better choreographed than usual. I’m happy with the fight.

I’m much happier with the ending of the chapter, though. Vegeta actually feels like his Boo arc self and Goku & Vegeta fighting in sync is genius. I loved Goku/17/Freeza in the anime, but this is a great alternative that honesty only makes sense in the context of Whis’ training.

I also prefer Jiren’s backstory here than in the anime. Dyspo’s right, it makes Jiren almost seem normal. I love that such a personal insecurity is driving him and that, even if he were to revive his master, Gicchin would not be impressed with who Jiren has become. That’s some solid writing.

Yep, I just read the chapter. VERY good chapter. The only thing that would have improved the chapter was show the SUBSTANCE of UI, meaning, why whould we care about this form? More build-up, and then the power scailing was a little wanky. If vegeta and goku used ssj god, or mssj blue agaist jiren in that final pages, defintly would have been a excellent chapter for me.

[PFM18]

I love how Whis (and the over all story) contradicts itself by introducing “Mastered” Ultra Instinct as something Goku has fully wielded, but then it just takes a complete 180 by having Goku revert back to his base form and have it be revealed that he really HASN’T mastered yet. So, it really isn’t “Mastered” Ultra Instinct.... unless Toriyama is suggesting Goku did master it for those few moments he was in it. All in all, really dumb.

It is never actually referred to as "Mastered Ultra Instinct" by anyone other than fans. It is not an official name so it doesn't actually cause any kind of jarring revelation that he can't access it again or that he can't maintain/control it.

[Spider-Man]

Comments on this chapter :

-UI Goku vs Jiren was good and I really loved the panel of the arena getting destroyed.

-Loving how Toyotaro is handling Jiren's character so far while he is whiny but I will give credit because they actually explained his wish.

-Not really a huge fan of UI Goku he is way too expressive instead of being emotionless and I don't like how it look.

-Goku and Vegeta team up was nice, its about time they use teamwork because I was worried that the manga might just sleep on this and have Vegeta fight alone to be a motivational punching bag which I hope the manga don't do this.

All in all it was a good chapter.

[Rakurai]

I'm probably the only one who feels like Toyotaro's UI design has regressed. I hated how it looked in the anime, AKA the Yamamuro version, with the square eyes and the less detailed hair. I was hoping for a more sharper look, based on his V-Jump displays. Like this. Or this. But the concept behind UI is great. "My heart is as quiet as the gentle streams of Mt. Paozu" - what an endearing metaphor to describe Goku's state of mind when utilizing UI.

Aside from that, good chapter except for the peanut gallery. Hated how it constantly ruined the flow of the battle. And if we were going for a Goku/Vegeta teamwork approach, I'd wish we'd get to see some nice choreography instead of just 2 vs. 1 typical fist clashing, which really doesn't help drive the point of being "in-sync."

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

The art is a vast improvement, I guess Toyo was saving up for this moment in the arc.

Ultra instinct looks pretty nice without the shine in the eyes and the huge amount of shading in the hair. I honestly prefer it that way.
Jiren's backstory here is better than what it was portrayed in the anime, and the whole message about "the teamwork makes the dreamwork" as opposed to my nakama is power is a huge thumb up from me

Now giving there is only three minutes left of the tournament, they could really just wait it out and U7 would be declared a winner. So I suggest that when the timer does runs out, the Omni-kings would just flat out just change the rule, and make it so your universes team has to be the only one in the arena, to be declared a winner. It would make the fight against Jiren more dire, you know what I mean.

Also I pray it wont end with the Omni twins telling them "if you made a selfish wish with the super dragon balls, we will erase your universe".

[Nokra]

Chapter was...meh.

[Lord Beerus]

Some (very brief) notes on Chapter 41:

- The battle choreography is the best Toyotaro has produced since the Merged Zamasu/SSJB Goku battle in the Future Trunks arc.

- The handling of Ultra Instinct was the most underwhelming use of a transformation/power-up I've seen since Ultimate Gohan. It came into the plot with no explanation and left the plot without having any kind palpable impact on the plot. And this creates a knock-on effect as I don't care about Goku mastering Ultra Instinct, therefore I feel no personal satisfaction from Goku using the mastered ability to dominate Jiren in battle.

- I found Jiren's wish to quite petty, but like the alternate take on the character's motivations and backstory for Jiren. It really seems like nearly polar opposite to how he was portrayed in the anime.

- I loved the payoff of Whis' training being that Goku and Vegeta can work in tandem with one another in battle.

- Where the hell is Freeza?

Overall... damn good stuff. The best second best chapter in for the Tournament Of Power phase of the Universal Survival arc.

[Spider-Man]

- Where the hell is Freeza?

He is probably hiding under a rock and chilling with 17

[kudo6000]

I love how Whis (and the over all story) contradicts itself by introducing “Mastered” Ultra Instinct as something Goku has fully wielded, but then it just takes a complete 180 by having Goku revert back to his base form and have it be revealed that he really HASN’T mastered yet. So, it really isn’t “Mastered” Ultra Instinct.... unless Toriyama is suggesting Goku did master it for those few moments he was in it. All in all, really dumb.

It is never actually referred to as "Mastered Ultra Instinct" by anyone other than fans. It is not an official name so it doesn't actually cause any kind of jarring revelation that he can't access it again or that he can't maintain/control it.

Isn’t the term used in media, too?

[batistabus]

Possibly my favorite chapter of the Tournament of Power.

Goku Omen vs Jiren

Really great. A clear display of how Goku's mentality is changing to suit Migatte no Gokui. The more angry Jiren gets, the more calm Goku gets. The line about the streams around Mt. Paozu reminded me of Bruce Lee's famous water speech.

The Homage

I'm split on this. Part of me dislikes it because this is such a huge moment. It deserves it's own identity. On the other hand, this reference is quite different from the ones Toyotaro usually makes. For the most part, the references are totally unrelated to the original scene. Here, not only is it a tournament scene involving Goku, but the contrast in Goku's expression and the situation provides impact. Goku's hair looks fantastic in that panel, and it's really given space to breathe, so I'd say I like it overall.

As for the design of Migatte no Gokui, I'm glad Toyotaro picked something closer to Toriyama's version. Everything about the power of gods displayed in Super shows that muscles are meaningless, and I'm just generally a fan of Toriyama's modern leaner style.

Jiren's backstory

I actually liked Jiren's development towards the end of the anime's version of the Tournament of Power, but I definitely prefer this version. Jiren's not searching for some abstract meaning of life, nor does he want to seek revenge. All he wants is closure. Imagine if All Might ultimately rejected Deku as his successor at the end of My Hero Academia. That's what this means to Jiren. It feels like a classic martial arts tale, and it serves as a critique on the lone martial artist trope. As strong as you make yourself through reflection, discipline, and breaking your limits, you'll always be stronger if someone has your back.

Goku and Vegeta vs Jiren, thanks to life form known as Whis

In a chapter full of great moments, this is definitely my favorite part. Based on everything we've gone through in Super, this feels truly earned.

The bit about Whis secretly training them to fight as a team is what ties everything together. We can see how the seed planted in Resurrection F has bloomed, and it's beautiful. Whis used their rivalry to develop this skill without them even knowing; he did what Jiren's master could not. His cheeky laugh is the icing on the cake. It's a damn shame we'll never see that with voice acting.

The Art

Some of the best Toyotaro has ever produced. The Kamehameha through the stage stands out, and the final page of the chapter is near perfect. Choreography is very clear, fluid, and engaging. Every drawing Toyotaro produces of Vermoud is great. Again, he's no Toriyama, but it's fun to think of all of the recent "paneling experts" who came out of the woodwork within the past month or two be presented with this.

[prince212]

I'm probably the only one who feels like Toyotaro's UI design has regressed. I hated how it looked in the anime, AKA the Yamamuro version, with the square eyes and the less detailed hair. I was hoping for a more sharper look, based on his V-Jump displays. Like this. Or this. But the concept behind UI is great. "My heart is as quiet as the gentle streams of Mt. Paozu" - what an endearing metaphor to describe Goku's state of mind when utilizing UI.

No you are not the only one . Toyo went for a “safe” design , I like it , but those sharp raw drafts made me expect an aggressive design change that didn’t come . Still better than make him a muscle man

[TKA]

I don't know the finer details of what the anime did with Jiren's backstory, but the manga here really delivers on what fell so flat for me there. Instead of him missing his parents or whatever, the manga frames his wish as entirely selfish and frivolous. I really like Jiren's motivation. Because I understand it completely. He just wants approval. He's willing to let other universes die, and he KNOWS this is wrong, but he needs his master's approval that much. That's his selfish desire.

In addition to that, the thing he's lacking being teamwork is perfect since he was introduced not being with the other pride troopers, he fought through the tournament alone and last chapter he let his teammates get eliminated. His actions make so much sense now. But beyond that, it was established super early on that if Goku and Vegeta just worked together they'd be better than when they're apart, and now all of that is coming back. This is basic set up, and payoff. This is good storytelling.

I liked that chapter a lot.

[MKCSTEALTH]

Much improved over the last few installments. I enjoyed Ultra Istinct here, but I prefer the form when Goku is silent, both in Omen and Mastered. I see the form as a state of being where every thought and emotion is tossed aside and the user is solely focused on the fight so intensely they react instinctually to what is happening.

The Goku and Vegeta team up is nice. Really makes me feel that we will get Gogeta should Toyotaro continue into the new movie.

Finally, Jirens wish. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I liked the animes take on Jirens backstory better, but the idea of Jiren becoming this strong as a means of gaining his master's approval works. I kind of see it as somewhat reminiscent of Goku meeting Grandpa Gohan in the Baba Tournament. It would be an emotional reunion where the two could share that moment of pride. Though Jiren interpreted strength completely different than what his master intended.

A much improved and thought provoking chapter. Definitely a thumbs up. Interested to see how they finish things off

[RandomGuy96]

I like that, even though there's still not much to him, manga Jiren has some pathos. His decision to become a hero (and become "the perfect force for justice" as he calls it) here comes off more as an attempt to make sure no one would die because of his weakness (and, more explicitly, to honor his master's legacy) than it does an attempt to prove some cliche nihilistic anime villain philosophy about the futility of emotions and friendship. Plus there's the dramatic irony of him forsaking personal attachments in his single-minded desire to become the strongest in the multiverse in an effort to honor his master's wishes and gain his approval, never understanding that the entire time that his master never doubted his strength. Rather, he doubted his ability to work with others, and wanted to fix that. In trying to hard to make the dead man proud, he ironically becomes exactly what Gicchin was trying to prevent: a cosmically powerful loner who only trusts himself. It also serves to contrast him with Goku in another ironic touch: Jiren has accomplished what Goku has been desiring since the start of Super by devoting himself entirely to self-improvement and surpassing the Gods of Destruction, while Goku despite his comparative weakness and less heroic personality unknowingly became the person Gicchin wanted Jiren to be and obtained the one thing Jiren truly wants (closure with his dead master).

It's not much, but it's something. At least he didn't try to vaporize his own teammates and Goku's friends solely to make him easier to root against.

[Marlowe89]

I was hoping for a more sharper look, based on his V-Jump displays. Like this. Or this.

What's interesting about those drawings is that they're a bit closer to the anime's take, given Goku's intense facial expressions.

Personally, I prefer the manga's version; Goku's blank face feels more in line with Ultra Instinct's Mushin-based concept, and also looks closer to how Toriyama envisioned it. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with either interpretation, but for me, this helps it stand out from the Super Saiyan forms.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Easily the best chapter in this entire arc. I actually enjoyed the fighting here, which is something that I never really liked about the Super manga. Goku shooting a Kamehameha through the arena and Jiren holding on from the bottom was awesome.

Unfortunately, Ultra Instinct continues to be underwhelming in the manga. I guess it's because Toyotaro is speeding through things, so he doesn't have the luxury of spreading things like Ultra Instinct out. I just wish it was utilised more.

I fucking wish Goku and Vegeta vs Jiren was handled like this in the anime. That is a moment that should've been treated with way more attention to it in the anime. I really love how it was handled here in the manga. I also love that part where Beerus realises that all of that 2 vs 1 training against Whis was actually just a ploy to make Goku and Vegeta train fighting together without them realising it.

Great stuff! Just wish there was more of it throughout the manga version of this arc.

[RandomGuy96]

I was hoping for a more sharper look, based on his V-Jump displays. Like this. Or this.

What's interesting about those drawings is that they're a bit closer to the anime's take, given Goku's intense facial expressions.

Personally, I prefer the manga's version; Goku's blank face feels more in line with Ultra Instinct's Mushin-based concept, and also looks closer to how Toriyama envisioned it. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with either interpretation, but for me, this helps it stand out from the Super Saiyan forms.

I do prefer MUI to be a calm state, instead of being a screaming warrior that powers up from rage and is flooded with emotion. In the anime it's... well, Goku Blanco. Or Super Saiyan 6.