"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:30 pm

mute_proxy wrote:the manga lacked "Godliness".
You're right, but that's exactly why I think it's more characteristically and thematically fitting.

The coolest thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're not really that godly at all. At best, they're flawed beings, and at worst, they're horribly incompetent at their jobs. Despite his egotism, Zamasu is ultimately no more divine than any other Kaioshin; the manga's approach is great because it doesn't just tell you his delusions are clear to everyone but himself, it shows you.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:04 pm

mute_proxy wrote: by best action scenes I mean best choreographed, the story is the same in both versions
It's fine if you like that kinda stuff.

But praising that is like praising the cinematography in Disney Wars: The Last Jedi. Of course it looks good, they pumped 300 million dollars into it. Similar case with Super. The choreography looks good because it should. They can be praised for it, but that kind of stuff doesn't mean much in terms of story. It can mean something about the character, but Super doesn't have that kind of visual storytelling (Z had it) so everyone kind of fights and moves the same. The only unique thing about anime Zamas is he throws a differently-shaped ki blast.

Tl;dr - that all seems like a lot of flash and little substance to me.

Fighting means nothing to me without the character and plot elements justifying the fight. This is why I enjoyed no Dragonball movie prior to Battle of Gods, why I don't care about Dragonball Heroes, why I don't like GT, etc.
the manga lacked "Godliness".
This post is relevant. This too.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:08 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:the manga lacked "Godliness".
You're right, but that's exactly why I think it's more characteristically and thematically fitting.

The coolest thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're not really that godly at all. At best, they're flawed beings, and at worst, they're horribly incompetent at their jobs. Despite his egotism, Zamasu is ultimately no more divine than any other Kaioshin; the manga's approach is great because it doesn't just tell you his delusions are clear to everyone but himself, it shows you.
I hadn't thought of it like that but it makes a lot of sense. Even Beerus, who's power is appropriate for someone of his station and has the presentation to back it up is ultimately just some lazy asshole who flips out over petty slights and obsess' over food.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:23 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: I hadn't thought of it like that but it makes a lot of sense. Even Beerus, who's power is appropriate for someone of his station and has the presentation to back it up is ultimately just some lazy asshole who flips out over petty slights and obsess' over food.
A friend and I were discussing Dragonball, as we often do, and he posted this (which I feel is a good summation of this basic theme):
FriendofTKA wrote:Anime Zamasu sucks and confuses the narrative.

The main point is just that the manga makes it clear that he's basically a mortal too. He's not a god, despite being a Kai. And Gods of Destruction are motals promoted to godhood, which we've known since Whis offered the job to Goku in BoG. Being a god is your job, not a divine right.

In the anime, the Potara restrictions don't apply to Zamasu's Kai half and he seems like he would have been better off there not taking Goku's body and just being two immortal Zamasus. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta use god techniques [the Potara] to fight Zamasu and Black but because they're mortals they have harsher restrictions. Then, Trunks wins with a straight up Deus ex Machina and at the end of the day Zen-O comes down and kills everything.

It doesn't really sell the idea that Zamasu's claim that mortals are inferior to him is complete bullshit, despite his claim being inconsistent with every other arc in the franchise.

Meanwhile, Manga Zamasu only manages to beat Goku with underhanded tactics, showing that he was inferior to the mortals he claimed to be better than. He stole a mortal's body to be stronger, despite supposedly being superior. In that mortal's body, he was still weaker than the two mortals anyway and needed to fuse to get the upper hand.

Finally, Goku hitting a trainee of a creator god with the Destruction technique that's supposed to be divine. Perfect.

Anime Zamasu confuses the message too much is what I'd say. The anime makes it look like he was right. The manga makes it clear he's just delusional and full of evil brain chakra ki. Zamasu's probably my favorite Super original character so far.
(Evil brain chakra is an in-joke between us. It refers to a retcon in Naruto to justify the Uchiha clan being super evil.)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:This is hilarious. After defending the piss poor anime (even by today's standards in a medium that is rapidly declining) and dealing with how atrocious it was, all the Super apologists have come out of the woodwork to finally vent their frustration with Toriyama and Toei by attacking the manga.

The ToP is a disgustingly bad arc, manga or anime, period. Just deal with it.
I know you like to assert your opinion as "an objective fact" but there's plenty of people that don't consider the anime to be piss poor.

Nah the ToP in the anime is one of the greatest arcs in the franchise. It has everything you could really want in a great arc.
1345521 wrote:
reecehoward wrote:That's the issue though. Toyo doesn't have to give them what's used in the anime. He can be creative and give them his own unique powers. It doesn't take much to do that. He didn't even attempt to do so.

In this case, there's no need to compare to the anime, as it's not really necessary to point out the issues in this version of the arc. This arc should be all about spectacle, yet this version has hardly anything of the sort going. That's not good. Damn what the anime did(even if it did get that part right), that's irrelevant for what the manga is not doing. The anime is over and done with, and most fans were satisfied with that version of the arc. This problem is wholly the manga's and many of fans are dissatisfied with it, some of whom could give less of a fuck about the anime and what it did.
Reece Howard, it's been awhile. My name is 4, and I'd like to apologize for staunchily defending this manga. I thought it was going to get better, but somehow it's gotten worse to the point is supar. I still think its better then the garbage anime, but toyotaro dropped the ball legitly in this ToP arc. It started the downfall in chapter 35 when Hit got knocked out for no reason, then conculded its drop-off by 39 (garbage chapter). Facts only.
I thought you were banned?
Me?! I never even recieved a community strike. You must be talking about 1345521 aka 4.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:21 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:the manga lacked "Godliness".
You're right, but that's exactly why I think it's more characteristically and thematically fitting.

The coolest thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're not really that godly at all. At best, they're flawed beings, and at worst, they're horribly incompetent at their jobs. Despite his egotism, Zamasu is ultimately no more divine than any other Kaioshin; the manga's approach is great because it doesn't just tell you his delusions are clear to everyone but himself, it shows you.
I think you missed the point. Zamasu was full of himself and over the top. He had to be taken down a peg for him to lose faith in his "godliness". In other words, it made a hell of a lot of sense for him to get that vain, believing himself to be special due to his godhood, above all things and finding out otherwise when he gets his just desserts from mortals. This is further solidified when Zeno shows up, letting us know that the only God that truly matters so far his himself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:33 pm

reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Several characters in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. And that is the point -- his imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Every character in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. That is the point. His imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
It seems that its actually you who missed the point.

Zamasu was built up be other characters to be some kind of prodigy among the Kais in both mediums of the series. In fact, he was even more shilled in the manga, yet comes across as more pathetic. He clearly wasn't intended to be some loser by the narrative of either version. It sounds like you are going out of your way to defend how underwhelming he is in the manga (despite being hyped up in-universe as some big threat :roll: )

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:44 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Every character in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. And that is the point -- his imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
So how does him getting to the point of complete hubris and megalomania hurt or go against what you just typed? If anything, it reinforces that! His moves and grandiose techniques were all a reflection of what he had believed himself to be, now that he had immortality AND the ever growing power of Black. He was already arrogant, but it peaked when he fused. He didn't believe he should be touched and was now above all existence, hence he never touched the ground until Goku knocked him down. This was the beginning of his physical and mental deterioration. It was at this point that he was less over the top and fought like any other character in the series. I don't see how this didn't enhance everything you just said.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:the manga lacked "Godliness".
You're right, but that's exactly why I think it's more characteristically and thematically fitting.

The coolest thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're not really that godly at all. At best, they're flawed beings, and at worst, they're horribly incompetent at their jobs. Despite his egotism, Zamasu is ultimately no more divine than any other Kaioshin; the manga's approach is great because it doesn't just tell you his delusions are clear to everyone but himself, it shows you.
I think you missed the point. Zamasu was full of himself and over the top. He had to be taken down a peg for him to lose faith in his "godliness". In other words, it made a hell of a lot of sense for him to get that vain, believing himself to be special due to his godhood, above all things and finding out otherwise when he gets his just desserts from mortals. This is further solidified when Zeno shows up, letting us know that the only God that truly matters so far his himself.
Both versions of zamsu were fine, and had some quailities that I liked about both. For example, the anime really exegerrated the arrogance egotism and esoteric-beleif of zamasu. I really like that angel halo light thinga ma jig, I felt that was, and I also liked how zamsu didn't even want to touch mortals since he was so drunk in his power which further worsened the traits I described. However, I felt the lightning strike was kinda uneccessary, though the gue I didn't have a problem with because it served as a good represenation to show not only the effects of fusing immortaility with mortaility, but also fusing a SSJ ROSE (takes up stamnia) and how quickly that would drain the lifeforce of the potora being. Add those comparment togther and it is fitting to see them half blob etc.

In the other sense, I really liked how toyotaro came with the more "common sense" appraoch and basically displayed zamsu to be what he is eloquently stated by berrus, they are nothing more then deliquent children running around trying to bring about their own little opinion of how the world should be, not understadning a lot of other external factors which contrinbute to being a God of destrucion or kai. Basically head strong but naive teenagers trying go against estblaished order. I liked how toyoaro showed that upon zamsu as you could see he lost his composure and acted kinda rash. I also appcriate how toyotaro gave zamsu some neat (albeit re-used from Z) tricks that make him pretty cool. I also felt he had the apporitate amount of arrogance, egoism, and god complex as well. I liked how this zamsu was pretty hands-on as well. the deisgn for manga zamsu was good, too.
Though I wish manga zamsu had some new movesets, instead of re-hashed movesets.... and that's pretty much it. I can't complain about his lack of tempertment because it's consitent to what a fusion manga black and zamsu would bring about. To get into temperment, I'd have to talk about zamsu and black in the manga and compare with zamsu and black in the anime which is a whole discussion for another day. The anime and manga fusion personaility complemented their fusees very well.

All in all, I like manga merged zamsu better because he seems more beleivable but anime merged zamsu was fine.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Several characters in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. And that is the point -- his imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
I just re-read chapter 40. The chapter was...it was okay.... in terms of writing. It was rushed, but the writing was okay maybe a little supar. And the power scailing was okay too. The art was AMAZING, and so was the characterization! The chapter was more comical then actaully good and meant to be taken really seriously... lool. I sensed toyotaro as trollotaro espcailly in the inerteaction of jiren and dyspo and jiren, or making satire of 17 self destruct (LOOOOOL), or berrus roast lines and non worry about this tounrment..basically accepting quite cassually if he gets erased... the stakes feel low which takes away from the seriousness... but the humor and troll-stench of the chapter was AWESOME!


Anyway, I say all of that to just say I agree with reece howard and the other guy. Zamasu was hyped up, and he wasn't meant to be a loser. And I feel the anime did a better job of hyping zamsu and black more so then the manga (though it's much more realstic of how the manga did it), in the climax both the manga and anime zamsus were extremly formidable threats and far from "losers" in the sense they weren't a big deal. And I agree with the other guy that it does appear you are going out of your way to defend the manga... and I don't blame you. I think the manga is better then the anime by a solid margin (though it has decreased due to the lousiness of these past few months), but still: It does APPEAR you go out of your way to defend the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:17 pm

1345521 wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
You're right, but that's exactly why I think it's more characteristically and thematically fitting.

The coolest thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're not really that godly at all. At best, they're flawed beings, and at worst, they're horribly incompetent at their jobs. Despite his egotism, Zamasu is ultimately no more divine than any other Kaioshin; the manga's approach is great because it doesn't just tell you his delusions are clear to everyone but himself, it shows you.
I think you missed the point. Zamasu was full of himself and over the top. He had to be taken down a peg for him to lose faith in his "godliness". In other words, it made a hell of a lot of sense for him to get that vain, believing himself to be special due to his godhood, above all things and finding out otherwise when he gets his just desserts from mortals. This is further solidified when Zeno shows up, letting us know that the only God that truly matters so far his himself.
Both versions of zamsu were fine, and had some quailities that I liked about both. For example, the anime really exegerrated the arrogance egotism and esoteric-beleif of zamasu. I really like that angel halo light thinga ma jig, I felt that was, and I also liked how zamsu didn't even want to touch mortals since he was so drunk in his power which further worsened the traits I described. However, I felt the lightning strike was kinda uneccessary, though the gue I didn't have a problem with because it served as a good represenation to show not only the effects of fusing immortaility with mortaility, but also fusing a SSJ ROSE (takes up stamnia) and how quickly that would drain the lifeforce of the potora being. Add those comparment togther and it is fitting to see them half blob etc.

In the other sense, I really liked how toyotaro came with the more "common sense" appraoch and basically displayed zamsu to be what he is eloquently stated by berrus, they are nothing more then deliquent children running around trying to bring about their own little opinion of how the world should be, not understadning a lot of other external factors which contrinbute to being a God of destrucion or kai. Basically head strong but naive teenagers trying go against estblaished order. I liked how toyoaro showed that upon zamsu as you could see he lost his composure and acted kinda rash. I also appcriate how toyotaro gave zamsu some neat (albeit re-used from Z) tricks that make him pretty cool. I also felt he had the apporitate amount of arrogance, egoism, and god complex as well. I liked how this zamsu was pretty hands-on as well. the deisgn for manga zamsu was good, too.
Though I wish manga zamsu had some new movesets, instead of re-hashed movesets.... and that's pretty much it. I can't complain about his lack of tempertment because it's consitent to what a fusion manga black and zamsu would bring about. To get into temperment, I'd have to talk about zamsu and black in the manga and compare with zamsu and black in the anime which is a whole discussion for another day. The anime and manga fusion personaility complemented their fusees very well.

All in all, I like manga merged zamsu better because he seems more beleivable but anime merged zamsu was fine.
Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Several characters in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. And that is the point -- his imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
Think we may have to taje this discussion to the Anime vs Manga thread before we end up derailing this thread past the point of return.lol I definitely want to finish this discussion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:21 pm

reecehoward wrote:
1345521 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point. Zamasu was full of himself and over the top. He had to be taken down a peg for him to lose faith in his "godliness". In other words, it made a hell of a lot of sense for him to get that vain, believing himself to be special due to his godhood, above all things and finding out otherwise when he gets his just desserts from mortals. This is further solidified when Zeno shows up, letting us know that the only God that truly matters so far his himself.
Both versions of zamsu were fine, and had some quailities that I liked about both. For example, the anime really exegerrated the arrogance egotism and esoteric-beleif of zamasu. I really like that angel halo light thinga ma jig, I felt that was, and I also liked how zamsu didn't even want to touch mortals since he was so drunk in his power which further worsened the traits I described. However, I felt the lightning strike was kinda uneccessary, though the gue I didn't have a problem with because it served as a good represenation to show not only the effects of fusing immortaility with mortaility, but also fusing a SSJ ROSE (takes up stamnia) and how quickly that would drain the lifeforce of the potora being. Add those comparment togther and it is fitting to see them half blob etc.

In the other sense, I really liked how toyotaro came with the more "common sense" appraoch and basically displayed zamsu to be what he is eloquently stated by berrus, they are nothing more then deliquent children running around trying to bring about their own little opinion of how the world should be, not understadning a lot of other external factors which contrinbute to being a God of destrucion or kai. Basically head strong but naive teenagers trying go against estblaished order. I liked how toyoaro showed that upon zamsu as you could see he lost his composure and acted kinda rash. I also appcriate how toyotaro gave zamsu some neat (albeit re-used from Z) tricks that make him pretty cool. I also felt he had the apporitate amount of arrogance, egoism, and god complex as well. I liked how this zamsu was pretty hands-on as well. the deisgn for manga zamsu was good, too.
Though I wish manga zamsu had some new movesets, instead of re-hashed movesets.... and that's pretty much it. I can't complain about his lack of tempertment because it's consitent to what a fusion manga black and zamsu would bring about. To get into temperment, I'd have to talk about zamsu and black in the manga and compare with zamsu and black in the anime which is a whole discussion for another day. The anime and manga fusion personaility complemented their fusees very well.

All in all, I like manga merged zamsu better because he seems more beleivable but anime merged zamsu was fine.
Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the point of Zamasu's entire character arc.

Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser. He convinces himself that he's above mortals due to his divine nature, yet resorts to stealing a mortal's body to accomplish his goals. Several characters in both mediums (including his fellow gods) consistently remind him of his hypocrisy with his arrogance consistently leading him astray and ultimately proving to be his downfall.

Also, he starts being "full of himself" as a mere Kaioshin apprentice. The story places his irony as a character front-and-center at every point. And that is the point -- his imagery only works from an internal perspective, but nobody else actually puts him on a pedestal.
Think we may have to taje this discussion to the Anime vs Manga thread before we end up derailing this thread past the point of return.lol I definitely want to finish this discussion.
I haven't been here in awhile, but the manga discussions always used to have manga vs anime supponets to it. Have the mods cracked down upon it? and besdies, just give me your retort on the other threads. I'm not copying and paste what I have wrote. If you don't find it worthwile to respond to by answerings on another thread, then so be it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Zamasu isn't special. In fact, he's kind of a loser.
Agree with that . I.m.o inmortal zamasu is even more of a loser

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:22 pm

zarmack wrote: Zamasu was built up be other characters to be some kind of prodigy among the Kais in both mediums of the series.
You bringing this up as some kind of counterargument just tells me that you're failing to understand the purpose behind this plot element and perhaps the red herrings of Toriyama's stories in general.

The entire point of Zamasu's build-up as a supposed prodigy was to establish that Zamasu, even as a prodigy amongst Kaioshin, was utterly incapable of defeating a mere mortal. In the anime, this is shown through direct combat. In the manga, it's conveyed through Godtube (I'll freely admit that it was actually the anime in this case that communicated this particular scene more effectively). That doesn't change his portrayal throughout the rest of the arc; be it his values or just his standing as a god, almost nobody ever comes to believe he's nearly as special or as important as he thinks he is. The sole exception is Gowasu, a guy who repeatedly admitted that he was blinded by his affection for his pupil.

You mentioning that the manga makes him come across as more pathetic is honestly more of a concession to my point. All that means is that the manga did its job remaining consistent with his characterization.
reecehoward wrote:His moves and grandiose techniques were all a reflection of what he had believed himself to be
That "reflection" bit is the entire problem. That's not who Zamasu is.

Zamasu's arrogance isn't just unwarranted self-importance, it's delusional hubris. He's supposed to be such an egocentric character that he's completely, ironically and often hilariously oblivious to how other characters perceive him. Adding in a bunch of flashy final boss techniques for the sake of fanservice fundamentally misses the entire narrative point that Zamasu is, in fact, just as pathetic after merging as he is before. He's not going to be putting up some grand facade if he never felt like that was necessary. He didn't suddenly start being full of himself post-fusion.

That's not mentioning the fact that it's also nonsensical in-universe. Gods in Dragon Ball don't run around with stereotypical halos and wings unless they're already dead... which also applies equally to some mortals, so it's not even a "godlike" thing. It's just out-of-place wank.
reecehoward wrote:Think we may have to taje this discussion to the Anime vs Manga thread before we end up derailing this thread past the point of return.
I'm not derailing this thread and I won't be posting in the other one. I'm specifically talking about the manga and its execution, irrespective of whether I have to bring up the anime to discuss which medium failed where the other succeeded. The general thoughts behind my posts were, are, and always will be completely on-topic as far as I'm concerned.

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PFM18
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:20 pm

reecehoward wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:This is hilarious. After defending the piss poor anime (even by today's standards in a medium that is rapidly declining) and dealing with how atrocious it was, all the Super apologists have come out of the woodwork to finally vent their frustration with Toriyama and Toei by attacking the manga.

The ToP is a disgustingly bad arc, manga or anime, period. Just deal with it.
I know you like to assert your opinion as "an objective fact" but there's plenty of people that don't consider the anime to be piss poor.

Nah the ToP in the anime is one of the greatest arcs in the franchise. It has everything you could really want in a great arc.
1345521 wrote: Reece Howard, it's been awhile. My name is 4, and I'd like to apologize for staunchily defending this manga. I thought it was going to get better, but somehow it's gotten worse to the point is supar. I still think its better then the garbage anime, but toyotaro dropped the ball legitly in this ToP arc. It started the downfall in chapter 35 when Hit got knocked out for no reason, then conculded its drop-off by 39 (garbage chapter). Facts only.
I thought you were banned?
Me?! I never even recieved a community strike. You must be talking about 1345521 aka 4.
Yeah I was talking to "4." Hence the fact that he was the latest in the quote tree.

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Amir
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:52 am

Bergamo wrote:
Amir wrote:
BrolySSJL wrote:Black arc in the manga it's simply amazing... by far better than the anime: more violence, excellent action, better story, better designs (Zamasu fusion in the anime is trash),... Black arc of the manga is the best thing in dragon ball since the Buu arc.

ToP better in the anime for now, I think.
The story was the same, what do you mean better story?

You're saying Merged Zamasu in the anime was trash, yet Merged Zamasu in the manga was far weaker, less threatening and scary and even his attacks were nothing godly like those in the anime (throwing some metal cubes against a Final Kamehameha like an idiot) his immortality was badly portrayed, he was more Majin Buu than immortal, it was even implied that he could die if erased completely and he was also dumb - he had plenty of chances to destroy Goku and Vegeta but instead he chose to beat them up, and he even went out of character by trying to destroy the earth even though he only needed to destroy the mortals. When Zeno appeared, he acted like a fool unlike the anime.

I'm not going to argue whether you find Zamasu multiplying a better concept than Zamasu being mentally unstable and half mortal which caused his muation, (even though it made no sense for him to muliply) but how can Merged Zamasu be better objectively than the anime Merged Zamasu?
There wasn't that much of a different between them to say something like that.
Throwing a bigger orb doesn't make him a better villain. Making him more vulnerable was actually better, because in the anime Zamas was so strong that he could only be beaten by Trunks's impromptu spirit bomb sword. Also, some of the things you said, like your comment about him being erased, are objectively wrong.
I said his attacks were better and more godly like, and they were.

Making him more vulnerable is not better because he was said to be immortal, so it's already wrong, he shouldn't be able to die. There is nothing wring about an immortal character being imposdible to kill ("too strong"). That's also very subjective.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. What stuff about him being erased? You mean when I said he acted like a fool when Zeno showed up?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:34 pm

Zamasu actually calls out Goku and Vegeta for the saturation of their innate strength with the might and devices of the gods. When you get to the kernel of their life's journeys, you'll find that they have in fact been subsuming their pursuits with the influence of higher celestial forces' power. Goku has been doing this since the beginning with deities such as Karin and by inadvertently benefiting from their training through the likes of Roshi. Vegeta ironically continued to maintain the sterility of his power up until he requested training from Whis. You then have the occasions where they employed the Potara Earrings, accessories intended to act as the martial trump card of the gods, being taken advantage of for the Saiyans' own purposes.

Sure, Goku and Vegeta are able to shatter Zamasu's pretenses of unerring authority and might, but it can't be denied that their means for doing so were compromised with artificial power from realms above. If you want to look at a strictly uncompromised bearer of mortal power and mortal power alone then some better examples would be Freeza and Hit.

Putting aside Zamasu's lack of comparable raw power, I don't see why he should have been panicking in that scene from the manga. Your psychic abilities are so efficient that they're able to halt SSJG Goku in his tracks. What's stopping you from pretzeling Goku's limbs into a hideous knot then blocking his airways with your hand? Get those powers of yours to be used qualitatively.

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Bergamo
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:31 pm

Lionel wrote:Zamasu actually calls out Goku and Vegeta for the saturation of their innate strength with the might and devices of the gods. When you get to the kernel of their life's journeys, you'll find that they have in fact been subsuming their pursuits with the influence of higher celestial forces' power. Goku has been doing this since the beginning with deities such as Karin and by inadvertently benefiting from their training through the likes of Roshi. Vegeta ironically continued to maintain the sterility of his power up until he requested training from Whis. You then have the occasions where they employed the Potara Earrings, accessories intended to act as the martial trump card of the gods, being taken advantage of for the Saiyans' own purposes.

Sure, Goku and Vegeta are able to shatter Zamasu's pretenses of unerring authority and might, but it can't be denied that their means for doing so were compromised with artificial power from realms above. If you want to look at a strictly uncompromised bearer of mortal power and mortal power alone then some better examples would be Freeza and Hit.

Putting aside Zamasu's lack of comparable raw power, I don't see why he should have been panicking in that scene from the manga. Your psychic abilities are so efficient that they're able to halt SSJG Goku in his tracks. What's stopping you from pretzeling Goku's limbs into a hideous knot then blocking his airways with your hand? Get those powers of yours to be used qualitatively.
SSG Goku was fast enough to move out of the way before getting hit by Zamas's telekinesis. Also, the airway thing is like asking why Goku doesn't instant transmission Jiren out of the ring.
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