"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Though that brings up the question: How does Gowasu know that FUTURE Zamasu isn't a Kaioshin? He doesn't know what the Immortal Zamasu has gone through in this Timeline prior to meeting up with Black. Did I forget something from that conversation they had two chapters ago?

The fact that Merged Zamasu didn't tell Vegetto "You are wrong! The Future Zamasu in me has already become a true Kaioshin!" confirms that Zamasu is not a Kaioshin, and can only use the Time Ring because he wears the Potara. Just like Black, who we know for a fact that he is not a Kaioshin, since he doesn't even have god ki in his base form.

[LowRyder2005]

Silly? Yes. Unimaginative? Hardly.

You know what's unimaginative? A villain who just shoots energy blasts. That's all Merged Zamasu did in the anime. Cell had the novelty of his moves being from the main cast. Frieza had the novelty of being absurdly powerful (at the time). Buu had a myriad of techniques due to his physiology. Zamasu didn't have any gimmicks and just threw generic energy blasts. What's really happening here is you liked the visuals and perhaps the music. Him throwing Katchin and creating it from thin air is a much more imaginative use of his abilities. It shows both the Kai (ability to create) and Saiyan (the ki to power his attacks) halves of him.

Happy to see someone sharing this sentiment. I thought it was a nice added trait as well.
I think that it's through these small details that you end up realizing that manga has more "heart" compared to the anime's rendition, regardless of its own set of problems, therefore being more endearing to the average reader. While I find the anime to be heavily oriented towards "coolness for no particular reason and/or with no build-up", I have the feeling Toyotaro is actively trying to make the story feel somewhat more organic. It's a shame that the first two arcs had to be rehashed somewhat haphazardly.

[TKA]

1. That still should have been unneeded since Trunks been fighting this whole time against impossible odds to the point that he acted as live bait as Goku and Vegeta rushed to the past. In fact, it makes Vegeta look kinda stupid.

2. Also, generic energy blast? You can criticized Merged Zamasu in the anime, but being genetic isn't one of them. He made an energy beast that looks straight out of Naruto, had spears that exploded on the ground, a halo, and rain light from the sky. Calling it 'generic energy blasts' is like calling the Final Flash just another energy attack.

1. No, no it doesn't. This isn't a character development thing for Vegeta, it's one for his relationship with his son. Trunks risking his life says he's righteous and true and all that good stuff. What it doesn't say is the stuff about his mother: things Vegeta would never know. That's why it affected him. Now he know why Trunks is fighting, and that made him put aside his and Goku's typical modus operandi where they get beat up a lot before deciding to fuse.

2. Yes, generic energy blast. He made a giant bird that shot ki blasts. Wow. So unique. It's just a difference in shape. Much like the Final Flash is just a different colored Galick Gun, which is itself a different colored Kamehameha etc. If the anime gave a shit about character work rather than just making stuff look cool, that bird would've had special properties. Let's take a look at some of the special moves in this series that actually show help to define the characters that use them:

Makankosappo - made for piercing. Piccolo made it specifically to kill Goku. He's been spending all his time since we last saw him perfecting a means of killing Goku. That move has history behind it and isn't just another ki blast.

Kienzan - made for cutting. Krillin made it because he isn't a powerhouse, and it's deceptive in its simple looks, but it is deadly. Much like Krillin. Again, another move that informs the character who uses it.

Every move Gotenks uses - all of them scream "this was made by a child not taking this stuff seriously," and most of them are unique rather than just being ki blasts, or differently-shaped ki blasts.

Zamas had no such thing in the anime, and regardless of how "cool" they drew the attack, they clearly didn't give a shit about having a story tied to it. Zamas using Katchin, however, something we've only seen gods do, helps to hit home that this is a god. Him using multiple kathin blocks shows that he has Saiyan power allowing him to spam them. It's not much, and it is silly, but it's infinitely more than the anime did.

[Boo Machine]

2. Yes, generic energy blast. He made a giant bird that shot ki blasts. Wow. So unique. It's just a difference in shape. Much like the Final Flash is just a different colored Galick Gun, which is itself a different colored Kamehameha etc. If the anime gave a shit about character work rather than just making stuff look cool, that bird would've had special properties. Let's take a look at some of the special moves in this series that actually show help to define the characters that use them:

Makankosappo - made for piercing. Piccolo made it specifically to kill Goku. He's been spending all his time since we last saw him perfecting a means of killing Goku. That move has history behind it and isn't just another ki blast.

Kienzan - made for cutting. Krillin made it because he isn't a powerhouse, and it's deceptive in its simple looks, but it is deadly. Much like Krillin. Again, another move that informs the character who uses it.

Every move Gotenks uses - all of them scream "this was made by a child not taking this stuff seriously," and most of them are unique rather than just being ki blasts, or differently-shaped ki blasts.

Zamas had no such thing in the anime, and regardless of how "cool" they drew the attack, they clearly didn't give a shit about having a story tied to it. Zamas using Katchin, however, something we've only seen gods do, helps to hit home that this is a god. Him using multiple kathin blocks shows that he has Saiyan power allowing him to spam them. It's not much, and it is silly, but it's infinitely more than the anime did.

To be fair, Most energy blasts are virtually the same. They just have different Colors and shapes. Aside from the exceptions like the ones you mentioned. But I feel like those are fairly rare Unless you're a villain.

I think you give the Katchin Blocks too much credit. I like them, but they aren't some huge thing that the series has been tied to for years. They summoned one and threw it at Gohan. It was more of a plot device to break the sword that held Old Kai. I still don't see the Saiyan power connection to him spamming them either. Kaioshin summoned his pretty easily. Nothing really says it requires much to conjure. I wouldn't harp on it so much if it wasn't the only thing Zamasu did. Even when he is being faced with Vegito Blues Final Kamehameha, his solution is to throw more blocks. It's just kind of underwhelming if he does nothing else with it. I'd appreciate it more if he morphed them into different shapes at least.

You say Summoning the katchin Block hit home that this is a god because only a god has done it. But I feel the Giant Halo and Energy bird that shot lightning did a pretty good job of conveying that with it's presentation of it. Manga Zamasu just kind of chucked really hard cubes when he got desperate. Again, I like the Katchin Blocks, and I don't say this to "Defend the anime" but I fail to see why the blocks are so special in all this.

[The gr]

Yeah, in my opinion, I find Jijii's take too similar to Toriyama's. Toyotaro takes this one.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That is very strange toyataro didn't do a homages about that scene,I was expecting that to happen, but I like what I got [spoiler][/spoiler]

[TKA]

To be fair, Most energy blasts are virtually the same. They just have different Colors and shapes. Aside from the exceptions like the ones you mentioned.

That's the point. Most are the same, but different colors. The ones that stand out are the exceptions and they inform the characters that use them. They're not just there for "coolness," but to actual enhance the drama and character-building. There's more I could've gone into, like Tenshinhan's life-draining, murder-focused Kikoho, which both tell you all you need to know about him.

That's what Zamas lacked. His big super move was there only to look cool. You could get into some meta commentary and say that it's ostentatious but generic to reflect Zamas being a cool concept for a character, but ultimately a shallow rendition of said concept. That, however, makes it even worse.

I think you give the Katchin Blocks too much credit.

No, I've given them just the right amount of credit. In this series, they've only been used by gods. The more important part is Kaioshin create, and he's creating something (and not something made of ki) to hurl at them. He's a Saiyan and a God, and he's exhibiting both qualities using the series' established lore.

Also, each time I add that it's silly and not that big a deal, but it's way more thoughtful than anything the anime did with Zamas' moveset. Also bear in mind that I only brought this up because someone thought the Katchin-throwing was unimaginative and stupid.

You say Summoning the katchin Block hit home that this is a god because only a god has done it. But I feel the Giant Halo and Energy bird that shot lightning did a pretty good job of conveying that with it's presentation of it.

That would do a good job of it in any other series. Gods in dragonball don't run around with halos and angel wings. Zamas' shit is out of context. It's generic JRPG final boss nonsense that isn't making use of Dragonball's lore. This could've been fine if the attack wasn't just meant to look cool, while in essence being just a big ki blast. If this attack actually did something special that added to his character, then calling the manga's use of Katchin unimaginative and bad would have some actual basis.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku and Vegeta not only initially turning the potara, but taking turns in fighting Merged Zamasu, annoyed me so bloody fucking much. For the all the shit that people give Goku and Vegeta not taking fights seriously in the anime, that scenario in the manga was far worse than anything has done so far. Why they hell would they think fighting Zamasu individually would work? They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were. But the scenario with Merged Zamasu inexcusable. Merged Zamasu literally kicked their buts at the same time with little effort, and they still would think it would be a good idea to turn down fusion and then take turns in him fighting him? Morons. Absolute morons they are. As well as total blood knights. Future Trunks and Gowasu should have slapped the shit out of both of them for doing that. And Supreme Kai should have torn into them like no tomorrow for pulling this shit again. Because it's obvious the are really not taking this whole scenario seriously and still treat it like a game.

Other than that, as I've said before, the hand-to-hand fight choreography was nice, the art as usual was great and of course Vegetto returning was nice. But I just can't help bult feel how less spectacular the whole battle is with Merged Zamasu against everyone else. Toyotaro also really needs to cut down on the homages, too. It once every once in a while but there were a bit too many in this chapter for my liking. It just seemed a bit uncreative on his part.

While the power logic was all kinds of muddled in the anime, it made up for it with moments of that felt really grand and visually pleasing. Regardless, I appreciate that the manga is taking the more power/strength logical approach to the story, even if makes the narrative and grandeur of the battles far less interesting. And even if the manga itself can get a bit shaky with the power scaling at times.

I liked that Merged Zamasu used more Kaioshin-like techniques, but I really wished he would have been more unique with his abilities and techniques like he was in the anime. I mean, surely there's way more he could do than just spam Katchin?

Vegetto's return and fight with Merged Zamasu was shot but was sweet, just like in the anime. And Vegetto's fashion of him cutting off Merged Zamasu's hands was awesome and the highlight of the whole chapter.

The speech from Future Trunks to Vegeta about Bulma was nice but felt a bit unnecessary. Especially to serve as motive for Vegeta to fuse with Goku. But the intent was very well founded emotionally given the nature of Future Trunks' relationship with Vegeta and Bulma.

The chapter was alright but really disappointing in some areas.

EDIT: Hooray!! Vegerot is still a thing.

[Kanassa]

They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were.

To be fair: In the F Arc they practically already knew they'd won before they arrive, as no matter how powerful Frieza became, they knew they could win.

[GodVegetto91]

Vegerot.. really!? Viz?

That name sucks! Everyone knows it's properly called "Vegetto."

I'm really dissapointed in that name, one thing i always liked about Vegetto (believe it or not) was his name. Both Vegetto and Vegito sound cool to me, but Vegerot....? Really? What is Viz pulling on us?

[Freeza9000]

Vegerot.. really!? Viz?

That name sucks! Everyone knows it's properly called "Vegetto."

I'm really dissapointed in that name, one thing i always liked about Vegetto (believe it or not) was his name. Both Vegetto and Vegito sound cool to me, but Vegerot....? Really? What is Viz pulling on us?

"Lord of the Lords"

[MyNiggaGoku]

Vegerot.. really!? Viz?

That name sucks! Everyone knows it's properly called "Vegetto."

I'm really dissapointed in that name, one thing i always liked about Vegetto (believe it or not) was his name. Both Vegetto and Vegito sound cool to me, but Vegerot....? Really? What is Viz pulling on us?

Vegerot is actually a pretty good name considering Viz's translation standards.Since Goku is Kakarot,then Vegeta+Kakarot gives us Vegerot.
If Viz were to use ''Vegetto'' then that would mean that they would have to use ''Kakarotto'' instead of ''Kakarot''.

[GodVegetto91]

Vegerot.. really!? Viz?

That name sucks! Everyone knows it's properly called "Vegetto."

I'm really dissapointed in that name, one thing i always liked about Vegetto (believe it or not) was his name. Both Vegetto and Vegito sound cool to me, but Vegerot....? Really? What is Viz pulling on us?

"Lord of the Lords"

But i like that one! It's a cool name for Kaioshins.

[kidhero1000]

Well, this chapter sure proved one thing, had Merged Zamasu not have had the immortality factor, he would of been quickly dispatched back a somewhat weaker SSB Goku's point blank Kamehameha

[batistabus]

Just because Zamasu stole godly relics and calls himself a god, that doesn't mean he is one. It seems that a god must be appointed, likely by the Grand Priest or Zeno himself. These are two people that Zamasu does not want finding out about his plan.

That being said, it's possible that Zamasu IS considered a god and the fusion WON'T wear off next chapter, despite the fact that Gowasu thinks it will. Perhaps Zamasu is now considered a Kaioshin and Black is considered his Hakaishin. If this is true, it seems that Zamasu doesn't even realize it, and maybe it only came to be when Black achieved Rosé.

[kidhero1000]

Just because Zamasu stole godly relics and calls himself a god, that doesn't mean he is one. It seems that a god must be appointed, likely by the Grand Priest or Zeno himself. These are two people that Zamasu does not want finding out about his plan.

That being said, it's possible that Zamasu IS considered a god and the fusion WON'T wear off next chapter, despite the fact that Gowasu thinks it will. Perhaps Zamasu is now considered a Kaioshin and Black is considered his Hakaishin. If this is true, it seems that Zamasu doesn't even realize it, and maybe it only came to be when Black achieved Rosé.

Didn't Gowasu mentioned he was temporarily giving him Supreme Kai status by giving him the the Potara in the first place?

[Freeza9000]

That would do a good job of it in any other series. Gods in dragonball don't run around with halos and angel wings. Zamas' shit is out of context. It's generic JRPG final boss nonsense that isn't making use of Dragonball's lore. This could've been fine if the attack wasn't just meant to look cool, while in essence being just a big ki blast. If this attack actually did something special that added to his character, then calling the manga's use of Katchin unimaginative and bad would have some actual basis.

I thought Zamasu's attacks in the anime effectively reflects his godly standing and presence and how imperious he is compared to others. Not to mention, his use of divine terms of name his attacks. It's also worth nothing how his ego increased many fold after fusing. This, at least, feels like a more intimidating presence compared to his manga counterpart where he just reuses other techniques from previous characters like Kaioshin and that one human extinction esque attack.

Gods in dragonball don't run around with halos

Well, the angels from all universes at least have them.

[Lord Beerus]

They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were.

To be fair: In the F Arc they practically already knew they'd won before they arrive, as no matter how powerful Frieza became, they knew they could win.

That's why I tolerate what happened in the the F arc. I didn't like, but given the initial context of the main battle between Freeza, it's not out of character for Goku or Vegeta to act like that. What happened with Merged Zamasu was flat-out character regression. They learned nothing from the Majin Boo arc or what happened in Resurrection F.

[Makaioshin]

Silly? Yes. Unimaginative? Hardly.

You know what's unimaginative? A villain who just shoots energy blasts. That's all Merged Zamasu did in the anime. Cell had the novelty of his moves being from the main cast. Frieza had the novelty of being absurdly powerful (at the time). Buu had a myriad of techniques due to his physiology. Zamasu didn't have any gimmicks and just threw generic energy blasts. What's really happening here is you liked the visuals and perhaps the music. Him throwing Katchin and creating it from thin air is a much more imaginative use of his abilities. It shows both the Kai (ability to create) and Saiyan (the ki to power his attacks) halves of him.

It has nothing to do with the music but it is entirely about visuals. In the other version he forms a halo, creates some sort of bird thing which fires lightning, and summons a bunch of ki swords. In this version he uses his godly ability of creation to create uhhhh...really strong blocks and he throws them at people and that is his go-to technique. Just like Toyotaro's art and fight choreography it is derived from what we have already seen.

And even though I brought up the Katchin cubes I don't hate it at all. I mainly think of the manga as supplemental and this alternate take adds more to Super than anything. I'm really looking forward to the next chapter because there is no way it is going to end the same way. Another Zeno will have to enter the picture but there is no way Zamasu is still going to shed his mortal form. Will Merged Zamasu actually defuse? I don't know for sure but it is exciting. And I do legitimately want to able to harness the power of these blocks in a video game. I'll get it on discount and gamecube some ningens.

[kidhero1000]

They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were.

To be fair: In the F Arc they practically already knew they'd won before they arrive, as no matter how powerful Frieza became, they knew they could win.

That's why I tolerate what happened in the the F arc. I didn't like, but given the initial context of the main battle between Freeza, it's not out of character for Goku or Vegeta to act like that. What happened with Merged Zamasu was flat-out character regression. They learned nothing from the Majin Boo arc or what happened in Resurrection F.

It's not like Goku alone couldn't of mustered enough power to kill this more powerful Fusion if only he wasn't immortal, anyway. So it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Kanassa]

They pulled this stunt in Resurrection F and the Majin Boo arc, and I really didn't like it in either of those scenarios because it undercuts the tension of the battle by making the protagonists seems like idiots and actively giving the antagonist a chance to win. I can at least tolerate those two instances because Goku and Vegeta had no idea how strong Kid Boo and Freeza were.

To be fair: In the F Arc they practically already knew they'd won before they arrive, as no matter how powerful Frieza became, they knew they could win.

That's why I tolerate what happened in the the F arc. I didn't like, but given the initial context of the main battle between Freeza, it's not out of character for Goku or Vegeta to act like that. What happened with Merged Zamasu was flat-out character regression. They learned nothing from the Majin Boo arc or what happened in Resurrection F.

Well, with how much of a joke Zamasu and Black have been in the manga, maybe they just assumed that Merged Zamasu would be so incompetent that he`d trip into a mafuuba container.