"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

and the rights to make any more Dragon Ball fired into the sun.

Hey, wait a second, let's not get too crazy there. I still want to make my own official DB history and make the real Broly canon.

[HeroR]

There is a difference between a cashgrab and a fanfic, my friend.

Fanfic is fiction created by the fandom. That's all it means. Quality doesn't matter.

And Dragon Ball has always been a crash grab since it was created to get your money and for Toriyama to get paid as Toriyama admitted.

Super will never be a fanfic since it isn't a fan creation, but an official produce. And Super like most produces in existence is a cash grab because it exist to make money, just like the original manga.

Every piece of fiction that's sold is created to make money, that's not an excuse for Super to be shit when there are literally thousands of other things designed to make money that are also good.

this man speak the truth

when people say the manga is fanfic, I just facepalm and say isn't super in general like this,that criticism is a cop out

There is a difference between a cashgrab and a fanfic, my friend.

A bad fanfic and a bad cashgrab have very little difference to me, the fact this franchise, a simple one at that, consistently fails spectacularly at making a good story from start to finish should probably let someone know that it needs to go back to the grave or put someone one who can do it right.

FFS, the anime was dead on arrival but at least they could have found a good mangaka to do the manga so there's at least A version of post-BoG Dragon Ball that's good but nope, they put Toyotaro on it, the guy who's output rivals Force Awakens in terms of sheer earth shattering genericness.

Super or any product being shit is subjective. One person's shit is another person's treasure. It's no different than someone thinking Dragon Ball and Z are shit manga/anime that's overrated and think Naruto is far superior. HxH is called one of the best manga in this generation and I think it's just okay.

There are objective measuments to quality, but enjoyment isn't one of them.

[sintzu]

My post count

The manga should be cancelled. It's nothing more than fanfiction at this point.

The franchise as a whole is full of fan ideas now so why the manga of all things ? why not the anime ? or the games ? or the merchandise ?

For some, it's their canon to Super and that's more than enough reason not to cancel it.

I'm one of the people who prefer the manga to the anime, I love what Toriyama's doing but the anime as a whole has been a mixed bag for me so the only way I can support Toriyama is through the manga.

The anime was dead on arrival but at least they could have found a good mangaka to do the manga so there's at least A version of post-BoG Dragon Ball that's good but nope, they put Toyotaro on it, the guy who's output rivals Force Awakens in terms of sheer earth shattering genericness.

The manga still has to follow Toriyama's plot so no matter who you get you're still getting the same story. At least he's doing a better job than Toei is. you and others may not like it but at least the art is consistant and the writing makes sense within the context he works in. Toei just does whatever and fans are stuck trying to explain everything.

[ekrolo2]

Super or any product being shit is subjective. One person's shit is another person's treasure. It's no different than someone thinking Dragon Ball and Z are shit manga/anime that's overrated and think Naruto is far superior. HxH is called one of the best manga in this generation and I think it's just okay.

There are objective measuments to quality, but enjoyment isn't one of them.

I never brought up enjoyment into the discussion, I was pointing out the stupid fallacy of "This is designed to make money so it's quality not being the best doesn't matter " when everything's done for money. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Batman, Superman, HxH, Naruto,... any piece of work, regardless of popularity is made to make money once the creator wants to earn a living from it. That's not an excuse for anything to be sub par.

The manga still has to follow Toriyama's plot so no matter who you get you're still getting the same story. At least he's doing a better job than Toei is. you and others may not like it but at least the art is consistant and the writing makes sense within the context he works in. Toei just does whatever and fans are stuck trying to explain everything.

Toriyama's outlines are a cause for head aches but looking at the manga/anime differences, Toriyama clearly doesn't care about how A gets to B that a skilled mangaka IE not Toyotaro can figure out work arounds for Toriyama's inept decision making and make something better then what we have. Toyotaro just isn't that guy. Sure, he's kind of functional and sometimes his art can really pop like when Goku vs MZ or Black's first chapter but really, if the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

[sintzu]

If the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

I personally love what he's doing and vastly prefer it to the anime. This is of course based on his adaption of Toriyama's outline, if he were to take over it could end up being a mess cause being a good artist doesn't mean he or anyone else is a good writer.

[Rhuagh]

The manga is where I look for the actual story, if it was cancelled Super would be ruined for me. The only thing I care about in the anime are slice of life episodes, the rest I find terrible.

The ideal situation for me would be if:

- The Manga was weekly, ~15 pages/chapter. That would improve the pace, it's just much better fitting for the genre of Dragon Bal.
- The Anime was an adaptation of the Manga, with Toei additions.
- The Anime was 2 cours per year, that is, ~24 episodes/year. That would allow it to have much better production per episode. We could have a better produced show than Z ever was. The ToP could actually be good.

That would be perfect.

[Basako]

Super or any product being shit is subjective. One person's shit is another person's treasure. It's no different than someone thinking Dragon Ball and Z are shit manga/anime that's overrated and think Naruto is far superior. HxH is called one of the best manga in this generation and I think it's just okay.

There are objective measuments to quality, but enjoyment isn't one of them.

I never brought up enjoyment into the discussion, I was pointing out the stupid fallacy of "This is designed to make money so it's quality not being the best doesn't matter " when everything's done for money. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Batman, Superman, HxH, Naruto,... any piece of work, regardless of popularity is made to make money once the creator wants to earn a living from it. That's not an excuse for anything to be sub par.

The manga still has to follow Toriyama's plot so no matter who you get you're still getting the same story. At least he's doing a better job than Toei is. you and others may not like it but at least the art is consistant and the writing makes sense within the context he works in. Toei just does whatever and fans are stuck trying to explain everything.

Toriyama's outlines are a cause for head aches but looking at the manga/anime differences, Toriyama clearly doesn't care about how A gets to B that a skilled mangaka IE not Toyotaro can figure out work arounds for Toriyama's inept decision making and make something better then what we have. Toyotaro just isn't that guy. Sure, he's kind of functional and sometimes his art can really pop like when Goku vs MZ or Black's first chapter but really, if the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

No way, Toyotaro is totally the guy, he is the best choice they could have done and he is doing an excellent work, proving it every month. Great art and storytelling, even Toriyama says his skills are great and totally praises his work.

So many people prefer the manga to the anime, the sales are great and it's not going anywhere, in fact, it's relevance is growing and clearly having influence in the anime itself by now.

If the anime didn't exist, Toriyama's manga would have been much less popular too, probably it wouldn't have gotten so far for start, that doesn't make it worse, it's just the nature of the mediums. Now, in the imposible scenario that the DBS Manga would have started alone, it would have had great sales too, because the story is still Toriyama's and Toyotaro's great skills put it into life in an excellent way, so people would appreciate it. The anime should have started to take it as reference from the begining, but better late than never.

[OLKv3]

Super or any product being shit is subjective. One person's shit is another person's treasure. It's no different than someone thinking Dragon Ball and Z are shit manga/anime that's overrated and think Naruto is far superior. HxH is called one of the best manga in this generation and I think it's just okay.

There are objective measuments to quality, but enjoyment isn't one of them.

I never brought up enjoyment into the discussion, I was pointing out the stupid fallacy of "This is designed to make money so it's quality not being the best doesn't matter " when everything's done for money. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Batman, Superman, HxH, Naruto,... any piece of work, regardless of popularity is made to make money once the creator wants to earn a living from it. That's not an excuse for anything to be sub par.

The manga still has to follow Toriyama's plot so no matter who you get you're still getting the same story. At least he's doing a better job than Toei is. you and others may not like it but at least the art is consistant and the writing makes sense within the context he works in. Toei just does whatever and fans are stuck trying to explain everything.

Toriyama's outlines are a cause for head aches but looking at the manga/anime differences, Toriyama clearly doesn't care about how A gets to B that a skilled mangaka IE not Toyotaro can figure out work arounds for Toriyama's inept decision making and make something better then what we have. Toyotaro just isn't that guy. Sure, he's kind of functional and sometimes his art can really pop like when Goku vs MZ or Black's first chapter but really, if the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

Seeing as how everyone loved the manga back when it was ahead of the anime, quite a few people would love it

[HeroR]

Super or any product being shit is subjective. One person's shit is another person's treasure. It's no different than someone thinking Dragon Ball and Z are shit manga/anime that's overrated and think Naruto is far superior. HxH is called one of the best manga in this generation and I think it's just okay.

There are objective measuments to quality, but enjoyment isn't one of them.

I never brought up enjoyment into the discussion, I was pointing out the stupid fallacy of "This is designed to make money so it's quality not being the best doesn't matter " when everything's done for money. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Batman, Superman, HxH, Naruto,... any piece of work, regardless of popularity is made to make money once the creator wants to earn a living from it. That's not an excuse for anything to be sub par.

The manga still has to follow Toriyama's plot so no matter who you get you're still getting the same story. At least he's doing a better job than Toei is. you and others may not like it but at least the art is consistant and the writing makes sense within the context he works in. Toei just does whatever and fans are stuck trying to explain everything.

Toriyama's outlines are a cause for head aches but looking at the manga/anime differences, Toriyama clearly doesn't care about how A gets to B that a skilled mangaka IE not Toyotaro can figure out work arounds for Toriyama's inept decision making and make something better then what we have. Toyotaro just isn't that guy. Sure, he's kind of functional and sometimes his art can really pop like when Goku vs MZ or Black's first chapter but really, if the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

Seeing as how everyone loved the manga back when it was ahead of the anime, quite a few people would love it

That's an exaggeration. When the manga was ahead, a lot of fans read it to see what was going to happened. After the anime caught up, interest was lost, which wouldn't happen if they really loved it.

[TheMikado]

So why are people mad at Vegeta being a hypocrite? That's typical Vegeta rhetoric there.

Not digging Goku seeming not to know anything about relationships, babies, etc. he's a grandfather at this point so I'm not digging the 5 year old in a 50 year olds body but that seems like how Toriyama wants to write him since it's in both. I know Goku can be dense sometimes, but not an idiot to the point where an asexual evil green alien and a race of evil monkey warriors that sends children off to commit genocide seem to know more about human relationships and child rearing than Goku who was raised as a human and been out in general society for decades... but whatever. This definitely isn't for me.

[Totamo]

The manga is where I look for the actual story, if it was cancelled Super would be ruined for me. The only thing I care about in the anime are slice of life episodes, the rest I find terrible.

The ideal situation for me would be if:

- The Manga was weekly, ~15 pages/chapter. That would improve the pace, it's just much better fitting for the genre of Dragon Bal.
- The Anime was an adaptation of the Manga, with Toei additions.
- The Anime was 2 cours per year, that is, ~24 episodes/year. That would allow it to have much better production per episode. We could have a better produced show than Z ever was. The ToP could actually be good.

That would be perfect.

This stupid myth that if anime was seasonal it be better needs to die. Have you seen sailor moon crystal?! It was seasonal and it looked pretty bad a lot of the time. Not to mention, we get 40+ anime every 3 months, look at attack on titan and compare the hype of season 1 to season 2. You think dragon ball would survive that?


The problem with Super is that it was rushed in preproduction and that killed it from the start.

[Basako]

I never brought up enjoyment into the discussion, I was pointing out the stupid fallacy of "This is designed to make money so it's quality not being the best doesn't matter " when everything's done for money. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Batman, Superman, HxH, Naruto,... any piece of work, regardless of popularity is made to make money once the creator wants to earn a living from it. That's not an excuse for anything to be sub par.


Toriyama's outlines are a cause for head aches but looking at the manga/anime differences, Toriyama clearly doesn't care about how A gets to B that a skilled mangaka IE not Toyotaro can figure out work arounds for Toriyama's inept decision making and make something better then what we have. Toyotaro just isn't that guy. Sure, he's kind of functional and sometimes his art can really pop like when Goku vs MZ or Black's first chapter but really, if the anime didn't exist, who the fuck would read the manga and think it was anything but barely decent?

Seeing as how everyone loved the manga back when it was ahead of the anime, quite a few people would love it

That's an exaggeration. When the manga was ahead, a lot of fans read it to see what was going to happened. After the anime caught up, interest was lost, which wouldn't happen if they really loved it.

The manga has never lost the interest, even behind the anime, it's totally one of the most commented topics in all forums. Obviously, whichever is the first published benefits from the novelty hypes, the anime is the main product and they want to market it first.

And look it this way, the anime comes first, then the leaks of the manga appear, then the chapter in V-Jump and Viz and it still makes great sales of the volumes months later, even if everyone knows the story or can get it free in two internet clicks. It has all against and it still does great, there is an undeniable interest in the manga.

[RedHeat]

I don't know if the manga can recover from this...Oh well, at least the anime is superior enough to hold me over.

[kemuri07]

Recover from what?

I honestly don't really know how anyone can find the anime superior. I know, opinions and all that, but DBS anime feels like an absolute choir to sit through while the manga feels like the Dragon Ball I used to know

[TheMikado]

Recover from what?

I honestly don't really know how anyone can find the anime superior. I know, opinions and all that, but DBS anime feels like an absolute choir to sit through while the manga feels like the Dragon Ball I used to know

Agreed, I'm also curious on what it needs to recover from? I wonder if that person has actually read it...hmm....

[Boo Machine]

Don't know if it well recover? It's not that drastic. It's a gag, most likely by Toriyama, probably not meant to be thought about this much.

It's not a funny gag. It's not even a good one. But it doesn't do any damage that needs to be "recovered" from. If the manga was "Damaged" then it certainly wouldn't have been from this joke.

Personally I don't really see it as that big a deal. Before Super, if Toriyama had said something, maybe in an interview, like, "Yeah, Goku wasn't around for the birth of Gohan. Was most likely training," That's something that I would have been able to buy without much difficulty. It maybe dumb but it doesn't seem THAT outlandish.

[FortuneSSJ]

I honestly don't really know how anyone can find the anime superior. I know, opinions and all that, but DBS anime feels like an absolute choir to sit through while the manga feels like the Dragon Ball I used to know

Considering how many panels Toyotaro rip offs from the original manga that's not surprising.

[Noah]

He sometimes makes exposition dump, because sometimes the story needs to establish some important context that need words, not just images. Toriyama used to do it too and it was fine. But he doesn't always do it, mostly the images speak from themselves, we have just Vegeta mastering the Blue now and the power levels of the characters have been established without any need of words.

Homeges are just homages, like when Frost used Freeza's pose or Goku and Vegeta repeated their first fight ones. That's not even a problem and it's not like he couldn't give them other ones, they are conscious decisions. If fights are repetitive, it's in the sense they are DB fights, he knows how Toriyama used to do them and he continues that style. But they have been interesting so far, since Goku and Beerus, Champa and Zamasu arcs, there have been so many things that made a lot of them unique. In this very fight we have Vegeta and Beerus both drawn from a wide variety of angles and positions, sometimes like four different ones in the same page for the same attack. But it's not the first time Vegeta attacks with his fists, please, of course similar poses can be found before too, it's a fighting pose and he is a martial artist, that's what DB is about. If you search, you can find repeated poses in Toriyama's work and, of course, in the anime too. Did anyone say about Gohan when he was fighting Botamo, 'Hey, he used that pose in the fight against Boo'. It's absurd.

Toriyama knew a better way to show info to the readers without being "forced" like Toyotaro does. I like homages, but in every single chapter is a little bit too much, it makes the readers start to doubt the writer's creativity, the same about the way he drawn battles, it lacks variety as you can see below:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

My post count

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Congratulations, mate

[HeroR]

Recover from what?

I honestly don't really know how anyone can find the anime superior. I know, opinions and all that, but DBS anime feels like an absolute choir to sit through while the manga feels like the Dragon Ball I used to know

For me, the Super manga feels like someone trying to impersonate Toriyama and failing at it. The battles are meh, the characterizations of the villains are laughable, the villains feel weak, a lot of characters don't even feel like characters just text boxes, and Toyo tend to put himself into a hole when trying to explain stuff.

The anime isn't like Toriyama's work and I'm happy for it. No one can copy Toriyama and I like the anime tries to do something different, especially since Toriyama wasn't perfect and the anime fixes many of the flawed writing Toriyama is known for.

Don't know if it well recover? It's not that drastic. It's a gag, most likely by Toriyama, probably not meant to be thought about this much.

It's not a funny gag. It's not even a good one. But it doesn't do any damage that needs to be "recovered" from. If the manga was "Damaged" then it certainly wouldn't have been from this joke.

Personally I don't really see it as that big a deal. Before Super, if Toriyama had said something, maybe in an interview, like, "Yeah, Goku wasn't around for the birth of Gohan. Was most likely training," That's something that I would have been able to buy without much difficulty. It maybe dumb but it doesn't seem THAT outlandish.

I don't believe so because if it was, it would be in the anime like Goku's motion sickness and kiss-gate.

But this hardly ruins the manga and fans, per usual, are overdoing it.

[Boo Machine]

Don't know if it well recover? It's not that drastic. It's a gag, most likely by Toriyama, probably not meant to be thought about this much.

It's not a funny gag. It's not even a good one. But it doesn't do any damage that needs to be "recovered" from. If the manga was "Damaged" then it certainly wouldn't have been from this joke.

Personally I don't really see it as that big a deal. Before Super, if Toriyama had said something, maybe in an interview, like, "Yeah, Goku wasn't around for the birth of Gohan. Was most likely training," That's something that I would have been able to buy without much difficulty. It maybe dumb but it doesn't seem THAT outlandish.

I don't believe so because if it was, it would be in the anime like Goku's motion sickness and kiss-gate.

But this hardly ruins the manga and fans, per usual, are overdoing it.

My reasoning comes from it's the same kind of gag in both versions. Only in the anime he just mentions Goten, which is understandable, where in the manga he mentions both Goten and Gohan.

Though I suppose I can't really say how much of it was Toriyamas joke, if it is his, but since Toyotaro says he tries to stick as close to Toriyamas outline as possible and even gets help from him, My assumption was that it's Toriyama's gag.