Hawk9211 wrote:According to someone, who is often reliable 17 is stronger than ssj3 goku and he only recruits 17,18 and krillin with piccolo appearing at the end.I got this from naruto forums.
@Michsi
In manga, gohan started training in gravity chamber a few days after zamasu arc.Now,if piccolo beats him like in anime would not that be a major power boost?
For Gohan or Piccolo? I don't really keep track of power progression, it's all very complicated (see rumor of 17 reaching SSJ3 level, because why not....)
But what I'm talking about is how characters are handled. Piccolo seems much colder and aloof in the manga than in the anime. Even in the original manga, Piccolo had thawed considerably by the Buu Saga and was always friendly with Goku. Wasn't Piccolo said to be the person Goku gets along with best next to Krillin ?
For both,gohan has been training in gravity chamber for months so he should be well above his buu saga self and if piccolo beats him like anime he would getting a big boost.Manga does not have the two base complication like anime and toyotaro keeps the powerscale quite consistent.So,it isn't that much of headache in manga.17 getting above ssj3 isn't that farfetched considering he started from ssj and even buu saga happened a few yaers ago.Not to mention infinite stamina.
Character handling I think is going to be better,but that's just a feeking.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
OLKv3 wrote:
Piccolo had the exact same reaction in the manga to Goku's line as he did in the anime in regards to the Champa arc.
I know they had the same line, but the execution/tone is where the difference lies and it's a considerable one if you pay attention to character interactions like I do.
OLKv3 wrote: Here Piccolo is offended that Goku isn't even considering Gohan for the ToP. He's not colder and more aloof, he's just defending Gohan
I got that, but the very first speech bubble shows Piccolo being down-right pissed at Goku and not because of the Gohan (yet). In a way it's a more reasonable reaction than what we see in the anime, but you can't help notice the difference.
Hawk9211 wrote:
Michsi wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:According to someone, who is often reliable 17 is stronger than ssj3 goku and he only recruits 17,18 and krillin with piccolo appearing at the end.I got this from naruto forums.
@Michsi
In manga, gohan started training in gravity chamber a few days after zamasu arc.Now,if piccolo beats him like in anime would not that be a major power boost?
For Gohan or Piccolo? I don't really keep track of power progression, it's all very complicated (see rumor of 17 reaching SSJ3 level, because why not....)
But what I'm talking about is how characters are handled. Piccolo seems much colder and aloof in the manga than in the anime. Even in the original manga, Piccolo had thawed considerably by the Buu Saga and was always friendly with Goku. Wasn't Piccolo said to be the person Goku gets along with best next to Krillin ?
For both,gohan has been training in gravity chamber for months so he should be well above his buu saga self and if piccolo beats him like anime he would getting a big boost.Manga does not have the two base complication like anime and toyotaro keeps the powerscale quite consistent.So,it isn't that much of headache in manga.17 getting above ssj3 isn't that farfetched considering he started from ssj and even buu saga happened a few yaers ago.Not to mention infinite stamina.
Character handling I think is going to be better,but that's just a feeking.
I hope so. I'm going the buy the manga volumes in bulk once I have the resources, but these discussions help me make sure they're worth the financial effort .
Maybe Piccolo is disgruntled about Goku's lack of consideration for his son's potential strength. Goku has been subversive lately by focusing his attentions on Vegeta and the deities instead of those close to him. It's understandable since the hybrids generally don't have much interest in fighting, but Piccolo might be more offended at the idea of discarding Gohan as a competitor than Goku is. Like others mentioned, Piccolo himself can relate to having his reputation undermined by those around him who hold low expectations. It could be that he feels more of a kinship towards Gohan because they're both cold-shouldered by the main duo (Goku moreso than Vegeta in Gohan's case).
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
We saw Gohan using the gravity chamber at the end of Ch 26 which is probably a minimum of 9 months or so ago so Gohan Should be as strong if not stronger than his Buu Saga self and Piccolo can push him to beyond ss3 goku imo
Lionel wrote:Maybe Piccolo is disgruntled about Goku's lack of consideration for his son's potential strength. Goku has been subversive lately by focusing his attentions on Vegeta and the deities instead of those close to him. It's understandable since the hybrids generally don't have much interest in fighting, but Piccolo might be more offended at the idea of discarding Gohan as a competitor than Goku is. Like others mentioned, Piccolo himself can relate to having his reputation undermined by those around him who hold low expectations. It could be that he feels more of a kinship towards Gohan because they're both cold-shouldered by the main duo (Goku moreso than Vegeta in Gohan's case).
That much is clear, but I doubt it means anything more than Piccolo just being a little offended on Gohan's behalf. Rather than hint at something deeper, like Goku being dismissive towards his son, I'm pretty sure it was just meant to add a bit of flare to Gohan's inclusion/return. 17's recruitment seems to happen really fast, and in the anime it happened after the Piccolo/Gohan episode, whereas here it's Gohan who's being saved for later ( pretty sure Freeza is being saved for last) and that really might imply a bigger role for Gohan. But so many predictions in the arc were wrong so I'm going to not put stock in anything.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:Is Goku lying to 18 and Krillin?
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
Doesn't it actually make more sense here, since it puts more emphasis on how reckless he's had been with causing this tournament? I think he may be a little afraid of their reaction.
Last edited by Michsi on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
The entire recruitment section so far is just a condensed version of the anime's, with most of the controversial fights removed, like SSB vs Krillin. The biggest change will probably be how they handle Gohan's recruitment
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
The entire recruitment section so far is just a condensed version of the anime's, with most of the controversial fights removed, like SSB vs Krillin. The biggest change will probably be how they handle Gohan's recruitment
Oh so none of the fun because without that, its just Goku talking.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
The entire recruitment section so far is just a condensed version of the anime's, with most of the controversial fights removed, like SSB vs Krillin. The biggest change will probably be how they handle Gohan's recruitment
Oh so none of the fun because without that, its just Goku talking.
He fights 17 in this chapter. Instead of SSB vs 17, it's SS3 vs 17
Do you really think a monthly manga should waste time on those other fights? Like most predicted, 17, Gohan, and Freeza get the most spotlight
Ugh. It's just like the anime. I wasn't a fan of the scenario there and I'm not a fan of it in the manga. Goku doesn't need to lie about the Tournament Of Power.
Doesn't it actually make more sense here, since it puts more emphasis on how reckless he's had been with causing this tournament? I think he may be a little afraid of their reaction.
It's pointless drama. They'll find out about the real stakes Tournament Of Power eventually and give so much shit to Goku for lying to them about it. It's lessened somewhat in the anime where Goku initially wanted to tell all the people who were going to comprise of Team Universe 7 the true circumstances of the Tournament Of Power, but Gohan convinced him not to on the grounds that if they were to found out the real stakes of the Tournament Of Power, they would freakout and not want to compete. Which is dumb because this is the same cast of characters that not only have battled many threats that have endangered the planet and the universe before, but have also allowed some of these scenarios to happen so they can challenge themselves.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Agree,I don't know why goku lied,will further comment after reading the chapter
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Some of #17 and Goku's skirmish:
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:Some of #17 and Goku's skirmish:
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
17 didn't used the shield?Can you send the link?
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
[/spoiler]
