"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Damn. I really liked the last chapter. This one? Not so much.

I'm all for Kale losing her shit and wiping the floor, but that was too much. It really felt like Toyotaro was thinking "I don't know what to do with all of these characters, so I guess I'll just knock them all out in this one chapter." C'mon, man.

I liked that moment where Kale knocked out Magetta. Kafla was really cool as well. I don't expect anything interesting to come out of Gohan vs Kafla, though. Very mixed feelings towards this chapter. I vastly prefer the anime version of this arc over the manga so far.

[TKA]

That's ironic because that's literally what's happening right now. There's no story being told. The implications of the setting are being ignored in favor of mindless action.

This is so patently, provably false that my only way to explain you saying this is that you haven't read the chapter. Surely you wouldn't lie about something so obvious, and surely you didn't miss the story progression in this chapter. I'll assume good will on your part and that you didn't read it.

The story progressed via Kale eliminating many fighters, Cabba being eliminated, Kefla being formed and promptly eliminating most of the pride troopers, and is now poised to fight Gohan.

Yes, it is disingenuous, just like it is disingenuous to claim Botamo and Magetta were not key players in the original tournament arc.

Everything is relative. We're talking about Hit and Frost. It's literally impossible to properly argue that Botamo and Magetta were as important as Frost and Hit in the original 6 vs 7 tournament. Magetta and Botamo were gimmick fighters with no character arcs or mystery around them. Hit had a character arc and Frost... while not a character arc, there was time devoted to cracking his altruistic facade.

It's "irrelevant" and "pointless" because they were knocked out in one blow.

If characters were knocked out with one blow in the anime, it would've actually been good instead of almost a year of worthless characters with subpar designs and one-note characterizations interacting.

They're characters from the same race as one of the other characters from the main cast

That isn't a detail that says they should be pivotal characters. Being introduced together out of nowhere immediately tells you they're bit players. Them being the same race as Piccolo is just the creators emphasizing that Universe 6 and 7 are twin universes, much like U6 also having saiyans and a frieza clan member.

I absolutely blame Toyotaro for not being creative enough to adhere to the arc's fast pacing while making the best out of every character. His lack of creativity is to blame, not the arc's structure.

It's not a matter of creativity. No amount of creativity makes up for pointless fights wasting literal pages on nothing. Just ask any Bleach fan how much the creative abilities of the Arrancar made the arc's numerous filler battles better. Spoiler: they didn't.

I don't want to sit and read months of chapters of Captain Applehead from Universe 4 using his special ability that the main characters eventually overcome, knock him out, and then it's more months of fighting General Bananaboots from Universe 9's special ability.

I want a concise story that has a beginning, middle and end told to me. I quit the anime because that dragged with useless characters doing pointless things. I'm glad Toyotaro has eschewed that nonsensical drivel.

Also, if it's gonna be a battle royal, lengthy fights is anathema to the structure and premise. Doing that is bad.

The manga also treats U7 like crap. Outside of Goku/Vegeta, Freeza and 17, nobody has a reason to be there.

Krillin and Tien literally do nothing. 18 and Piccolo

Nonsense.

Even the bit players of U7 contributed. Dragonball fans have this ridiculous idea that characters are defined by power levels and fights, but that's largely a very narrow view of the series that undermines a lot of the strengths of the writing. Tenshinhan and Krillin were immediately used as bargaining chips by Frieza, and that led to Frost's elimination. Piccolo and 18 exposed the types of enemies in this tournament and their abilities, while showing that strength wasn't the only thing that'd keep you in the tournament.

All of these add to the story being told more than if Piccolo, Krillin, 18, and Tenshinhan had each eliminated 3 or 4 nameless, forgettable characters.

[Doctor.]

I don't want to sit and read months of chapters of Captain Applehead from Universe 4 using his special ability that the main characters eventually overcome, knock him out, and then it's more months of fighting General Bananaboots from Universe 9's special ability.

Nobody wants this because this is not a proper way to write a story either. Stop bringing up the anime when I keep telling you the anime is just as garbage.

I don't understand how you can take "make the best out of each fighter to enhance the setting and complement our cast" and spin it to mean "let's make long fights and give every fodder character their own moment in the sun to pointlessly extend the tournament." You're either awfully unimaginative regarding character writing or you're misrepresenting me on purpose.

[Bergamo]

I don't want to sit and read months of chapters of Captain Applehead from Universe 4 using his special ability that the main characters eventually overcome, knock him out, and then it's more months of fighting General Bananaboots from Universe 9's special ability.

Nobody wants this because this is not a proper way to write a story either. Stop bringing up the anime when I keep telling you the anime is just as garbage.

I don't understand how you can take "make the best out of each fighter to enhance the setting and complement our cast" and spin it to mean "let's make long fights and give every fodder character their own moment in the sun to pointlessly extend the tournament." You're either awfully unimaginative regarding character writing or you're misrepresenting me on purpose.

I agree with this.
Good by comparison =/= Good
I am ultimately okay with this, because between the anime and the manga this arc has been going for almost 17 months. I just want to see ultra instinct and then move on to something new.

[Doctor.]

I am ultimately okay with this, because between the anime and the manga this arc has been going for almost 17 months. I just want to see ultra instinct and then move on to something new.

The same, actually. I wouldn't even mind if Toyotaro wrapped the ToP next chapter and moved on to Broly the month after, honestly. But the issue here is that the manga doesn't make up its mind if it's promotional material for the anime or a full-fledged sequel to Toriyama's manga. And the fans want to have their cake and eat it too; they claim it's a legitimate sequel to the original series but the moment it gets criticism based on that standard, they turn around and say it's just promotional material, so you can't have certain expectations or hold it up to such a high standard.

[Xeztin]

I wonder if Toyotaro will continue on to the new movie and draw it after the ToP

[MKCSTEALTH]

Jesus Christ, Kale

The manga gave me what I figured would happen in ep 100. Kale would go berserk and a lot of the nobodies would get tossed. Well literally ALL the filler was thrown out this chapter.

Kefla was so cool. She's still one of my favorites, and seeing her whip the Pride Troopers around is great

Gohan vs Kefla is going to be interesting. Hope we get a good outing for Gohan

This chapter was a ride. I guess the UI Goku vs Jiren fight is being left for the very end

[Bergamo]

I am ultimately okay with this, because between the anime and the manga this arc has been going for almost 17 months. I just want to see ultra instinct and then move on to something new.

The same, actually. I wouldn't even mind if Toyotaro wrapped the ToP next chapter and moved on to Broly the month after, honestly. But the issue here is that the manga doesn't make up its mind if it's promotional material for the anime or a full-fledged sequel to Toriyama's manga. And the fans want to have their cake and eat it too; they claim it's a legitimate sequel to the original series but the moment it gets criticism based on that standard, they turn around and say it's just promotional material, so you can't have certain expectations or hold it up to such a high standard.

I think the manga ToP is fine by itself, but it's shortcomings are more understandable if you consider the larger context. I think they need to give Toyotaro a weekly or bi-weekly series. This month he made a chapter with decent writing and great art, as well as several promo posters. Toyotaro needs to be given a chance to do his own thing.

[Marlowe89]

I'm all for Kale losing her shit and wiping the floor, but that was too much. It really felt like Toyotaro was thinking "I don't know what to do with all of these characters, so I guess I'll just knock them all out in this one chapter."

Then here's a potentally hot take for you: I don't think Kale's role in the chapter would have been nearly as impactful if nearly all of the remaining universes weren't ruthlessly conveyed as the victims they were intended to be during her onslaught.

Sometimes background characters aren't going to have roles that portray them as anything more than window dressing to enhance the presence of a more significant character, and I'm completely fine with that. They clearly have a purpose, and they're not arbitrarily owed something outside of that purpose.

[jeffbr92]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

As much as I would like this to be true is nothing but advertising, if this were in Japanese, then it would have more credibility.

Nobody wants this because this is not a proper way to write a story either. Stop bringing up the anime when I keep telling you the anime is just as garbage.

This guy only argument to who ever criticizes the manga is to atack the anime, assuming people are biased fan boys when they actually think both have a lot of negative aspects

[Zephyr]

Whenever I'm "defending" the manga, I'm perpetually perplexed by the sheer volume of things I end up writing that I look at and think, "how does this actually need to be said?" I feel like so much of this stuff is utterly absurd to have to actually spell out in detail.

There is basically nothing conceptually new (it’s an exaggeration)and potential is just wasted.We are basically done with 8 universes and the most focused one was the one with saiyans.

As far as I care,we are basically in the buu saga.You can’t expect anyone not a Saiyan to get continuous focus especially after they’ve been surpassed or any non Saigon lore.Power trumps everything in such a way it comes off as lazy and uncreative rather than impressive.Interesting ideas like demon realm are presented but not explored.

Since "nothing conceptually new" is an admitted exaggeration, I won't bother addressing that. Your point that "power trumps everything" is explicitly undermined by Kale eventually getting worked around by the Pride Troopers.

Like Cipher said, "focusing on the Saiyans" isn't new. Son Goku, someone later revealed as a Saiyan, has been the main character from day one. After the arc that introduces his heritage, along with four new members of this race (his son included), this race far and away becomes the focus of the rest of the series. The Namek arc's climax involves fighting the would-be genocider of their race, and the manifestation of their race's (at the time) biggest legend. The Cell arc focuses largely on the four protagonist Saiyans, and their different approaches to improving upon that legend. The Buu arc starts out with one Saiyan as the focal point, and shifts into a preventable crisis accelerated by two other Saiyans' rivalry; and when the next generation of half-Saiyans fail to solve their fathers' problems, said fathers solve it themselves (though not without some crucial outside assistance). Super, from Battle of Gods in 2013 to the Tournament of Power in 2018, has likewise had Saiyans at the forefront the entire time; indeed, that stretch has overall involved Goku and Vegeta's learning of mushin from a cornish rex and his guardian angel. At this point, if having Saiyans being the focus bothers you, you should have jumped ship decades ago. And while Cipher also keenly pointed out that only one of the four final combatants in the anime was a Saiyan, and the manga is clearly heading in that same direction, the following story, this new film, is, guess what? All about "what it means to be a Saiyan". And don't worry, I'm certainly aware that non-Saiyans had ample time to shine throughout the manga; but the point here is about focus.

"Potential" is always popping up in Dragon Ball discussions, and it's bizarre to me. Every story you could ever conceivably tell has some "wasted potential", some things that could later be expanded upon and fleshed out that weren't. This is true for Dragon Ball. This is true for other manga and anime. This is true for live action television and film. This is true for real world accounts of shit that happened to you throughout the day. You cannot flesh out every microscopic detail to their limit, no matter what we're talking about. There will always be more stories that could be told, more things that could be learned. And that's been acknowledged in this very thread by some of the detractors, and that's good. But the next important step in the conversation is identifying when something needed to be expanded on, and I recognize that this is indeed one of the major points of contention.

I do not believe in the slightest that 100% of the fighters, or even most of the fighters, in the Tournament of Power needed a good showing, or even any real showing. "What's the point of having an 80 man tournament!?" To have an 80 man tournament. To emphasize that there are a lot of people participating. You don't need to "give them all a cool moment" in order for the volume of fighters to be what it is. This doesn't "waste their potential", because they weren't wasted: they were utilized. They were utilized to show that not everyone can be important, and more specifically, they were used to show off how freakishly scary Kale is. Their poor showings in the tournament were in service of something, therefore their poor showings do not constitute a waste. And given where we know the story goes after this tournament, Kale is a big fucking deal. Her rampage and utter demolishing of the tournament's roster specifically foreshadows how in over their heads our boys will be in the next arc. And, no, of course it's not impossible for all of these guys to have cool showings and get wiped out in Kale's bloodthirsty rampage. But that doesn't matter, because they still acted in service of Kale's rampage. They weren't wasted. What about the Universe 6 Namekians? Were they "wasted potential"? No, they weren't. They were a sacrifice to show that Kale is bloodthirsty enough to attack her own teammates. Did it have to be them? No. But it was them. They served a narrative function. Ergo, they, too, were not wasted. And, as we know from the tournament's resolution, these universes are coming back. So their very existence hasn't been wasted. They get brought back. The multiverse is still a huge fucking place.

The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

As for the constant assertions that the manga lacks "excitement", "hype", "intensity", or what have you....while I'm certain this doesn't apply to everyone tossing that around: do a lot of you simply not find comic books as a medium in general to be very stimulating or exciting? Because I thought this chapter was exciting as hell.

I know I'll probably reply for a bit, but I'm anticipating very few being anything beyond just repeating what I've said here (or repeating something that TKA has said several dozen times). I'd be elated to be able to do otherwise.

[Kanassa]

Furthermore, even if you treat everyone as fodder, there's still creativity to give them their own flair through their abilities and personality.

Thing is, people can say 'Oh, they're just fodder' and 'You were never promised they'd do anything', but if the majority of the arc's screen time is based upon the 'fodder; getting eliminated, it's kind of just saying that the majority of the story is spent on bland fights you are neither supposed to care about nor be invested in.

Also, I dislike the context of WHY Kefla is a thing in this chapter. While I like the idea of fusing to stop Kale form going beserk, I feel like Caulifla and Kale fusing because of that, especially unknowingly, very much cheapens the relationship between Kale and Caulifla. Even if they're much less personal than in the anime.

[Doctor.]

Thing is, people can say 'Oh, they're just fodder' and 'You were never promised they'd do anything', but if the majority of the arc's screen time is based upon the 'fodder; getting eliminated, it's kind of just saying that the majority of the story is spent on bland fights you are neither supposed to care about nor be invested in.

Yeah, that's the major issue here. They can't say 80% of the cast in this tournament is disposable while defending such a large part of the tournament being dedicated to getting rid of those characters.

I'll repeat myself again for anyone who wants to read and isn't interested in misrepresenting the complaints thrown at the Tournament of Power, both in the manga and the anime, in the way it has been executed as a concept: this is an extremely interesting concept. We are talking about the elimination of multiple universes here and each and every fighter has been chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones. The anime touches on the implications of the entire setting during the Zen Exhibition and Obuni's elimination and the manga does the same during the elimination of Bergamo, but the truth is that all of these characters have largely been reduced to nothing more than background decoration. Yes, that may have been a conscious decision on Toriyama and Toyotaro's part, but it's a conscious decision that warrants criticism given the setting they have created, and it's not criticism that should be ignored simply because a coherent story has been created around this incredibly flawed premise. The incredibly interesting setting of this arc was butchered and used as nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together; that's all there is. There's little to no substance here, regardless of how "cohesive" the "story" actually is.

I'm aware that this is Dragon Ball and handling touchy and mature subjects in a lighthearted manner is nothing new to Dragon Ball, but every competently written story arc in this franchise has handled death and stakes with some sort of gravitas. Imagine if nobody cared when Yamcha died to the Saibaman and they just kept talking and attacking as if nothing happened. Better yet, imagine if when Tao killed Bora, Goku was all cheerful; that's what this entire story arc feels like.

This is not a tournament for fun. The characters, outside of Goku and few others, are not having the time of their life here. Each and every character here has their own life, has their own planet, has their own universe to defend. Nobody is asking a detailed backstory on every character, that is ridiculous, but they are not being properly utilized if they're being tossed out of the ring left and right and the story keeps ignoring the implications that their elimination and the erasure of the universes should have on them and the characters we know. And this brings me to my next point: these characters can be useful to SERVE character arcs of the characters we already know. You can use these characters' powers, backstories, personalities, races, relationships with other characters, etc, to contrast with and complement our own characters on top of helping nail down the tone of the arc and integrating themselves into the themes this arc is presenting. The truth is that we care about action in Dragon Ball, as ekrolo put it in another thread, because of the context surrounding that action; and so, BOTH characters need to have something for us to be invested in. If Nam didn't have his backstory, we wouldn't be invested in his fight with Goku; he'd be just another opponent Goku has to beat. The fight is memorable because of the contrast between Nam's desperation and Goku's aloof nature, not simply because the action scenes are cool. We are not simply invested in one character. I don't give a fuck about Goku's fight if I don't care about who he's fighting. I care about Goku's fight if the character he's fighting is interesting. Now, if the opponents Goku & co are fighting for about 50% of this "story" don't have anything I can call interesting, then why the fuck am I watching or reading this piece of shit? To watch some cool fight scenes? I can watch some cool fight scenes whilst being invested in the story, in the action, in the characters and opposing factions, with well communicated stakes and tension, by reading the original series. Now, it's fine if you're one who doesn't mind just watching some cool fight scenes. If the spectacle is for you, then more power to you. But don't you dare turn around and accuse others of only wanting flashy fanservice when that's precisely the thing you prove yourself interested in by defending this travesty of an arc. And if you acknowledge that this arc is nothing but dumb, stupid action, then you have no leg to stand on when you call people out who want something more; because, like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).

[jplaya2023]

thank god the manga isn't canon. I read this entire chapter with the wtf on the entire time. The power scaling is laughable, and vegeta confirmed what i been saying about kale's and non canon brolly's form all this time. It's basically ssj1 grade 3 wihtout speed loss

[SSJgogeto]

Well, this chapter is awful. I like some parts, though.

[mahakaishin1991]

In some ways, I like this chapter over the anime. Gohan's fighting a major enemy, Kales huge blast attack from when she ruined the arena actually knocked people off it (and got rid of the mooks) and thinned the heard down. Trouble is, they are now short of the two namekians which saddens me. I was indifferent to most of the fighters beyong moveset showings and in the anime most didnt get anything anyway, so I had no expectations here.

Vegeta with a ki sword was cool, and seeing Cabba go down saving a teammate over getting painfully ruined by Freeza felt 'more right' for his character than that torture scene.

There were flaws though, I think Kale shouldnt have knocked out so many on her own. Maybe 2/3rds of what she achieved at best, and not anything over one whole universe elimination.
Obuni being a joke wasnt cool.

Wonder how Gohan is going to beat Kefla

[Bergamo]

thank god the manga isn't canon. I read this entire chapter with the wtf on the entire time. The power scaling is laughable, and vegeta confirmed what i been saying about kale's and non canon brolly's form all this time. It's basically ssj1 grade 3 wihtout speed loss

Super Saiyan God Vegeta is confirmed for the movie, but SSBE and Kaioken are nowhere to be seen. Next they will say that the Toriyama written movie isn't canon. How much more confirmation do you need? There's literally a Toei-Shueisha promo that says the manga is canon.

[Issei189]

thank god the manga isn't canon. I read this entire chapter with the wtf on the entire time. The power scaling is laughable, and vegeta confirmed what i been saying about kale's and non canon brolly's form all this time. It's basically ssj1 grade 3 wihtout speed loss

Eh, The Manga is also canon. People should look up canon's def from a dic.

" The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine "

[Kingdom Heartless]

Yeah, Kale and Caulifla's bond is handled so poorly in the manga. One of my favourite aspects of the arc in the anime is that we were given two powerful female characters who both had each other's backs. It was something the series had not really done before, and it was all the better for it.

[Bergamo]

Yeah, Kale and Caulifla's bond is handled so poorly in the manga. One of my favourite aspects of the arc in the anime is that we were given two powerful female characters who both had each other's backs. It was something the series had not really done before, and it was all the better for it.

Why does it matter if they're female?