"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:35 am

Alright then, i can certainly tolerate Beerus doing so well against them if he actually utilises the technique of having your body "move and react without thinking" Whis always talks about, however, another counter argument immediately pops up, why couldn't GoDs like Geene and Iwne not do the same? I mean if Beerus of all people could do it, then Gods on the level of those 2 i mentioned above, should certainly be able to utilise it too to some degree at least.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:52 am

Draconic wrote:
LightBing wrote:Can people please explain to me why Beerus being the strongest or one of the strongest is bad? Why would it be better if he was weaker than some or most of them?

I truly don't understand the logic behind this. I can't imagine any positive's to the narrative, neither negatives. It actually doesn't matter unless it comes with some baggage.

Also how are people concluding the characters strength from the little we saw. It only begun and nothing conclusive happened, Beerus dodging a few Hakaishins using a super-advanced technique is perfectly reasonable.

Beerus being one of the strongest isn't really a problem. Hell, we know he is stronger than Champa already. But him being THE strongest? When there are 10 other characters or equal rank and status introduced three stories after his introduction? I'm sorry, but that only signifies plot stagnation. It's not detrimental to the arc, but to the whole story. It cheapens the other Universes for the sake of Universe 7. Not to mention that Whis might also be the best teacher, since he taught Beerus a technique no other God has.

If Beerus is the strongest and Whis is the best teacher, then of course Goku and Vegeta will eventually emerge as top dogs. Once they surpass their masters, well, they are only second to Zeno himself. Aren't all those Universes introduced supposed to be new avenues to be explored later, for Goku to get stronger once he becomes the U7 greatest warrior? The story doesn't have to go that way and it probably won't, but in case it does, the audience still has something to look forward to.

Everybody was excited back in Battle of Gods to hear of all those new places becuase of what they meant for Goku and his story, even though it was supposed to be the final Dragon Ball thing. There was nothing up on the table after that. But it was an interesting tidbit about the world that showed once more what Toriyama intended with the ending of the manga: give the audience finality, but leave it open-ended for the characters themselves.

If Goku surpasses Beerus this arc (which never seemed more likely), and Beerus is the strongest, then that's that. Game over, nothing to see here anymore.

Also, compare it for a second with how all the other gods in this series were introduced: Karin was weaker than Kami, who was weaker than Kaio, who was the butt of the jokes among the other three Kaio, who were all beneath Grand Kaio, who himself was weaker than Kaioshin, who is weaker than Beerus who is the strongest God in the 12 Universes. Doesn't look that great, does it?


However, that said, I don't feel the manga is taking that route anyway. Sure, it keeps the bad habit of everybody introduced looking like shit at everything, compared to the main characters, but I don't feel Beerus is the strongest. Again, I fully except him to be eliminated next, since I think this is how they'll decide what 4 Universes aren't going to participate and I don't think the order in which they're presented in the anime is going to be changed (especially with Sidra going out first). So he won't end up the winner, won't end up the strongest and giving him a decent showing beforehand is welcomed.


I think your doubts aren't justified. It all comes down to writing and putting Beerus as the strongest doesn't hold back the story one bit, unless the writers don't have imagination.

Look at Zamasu for example, that's a threat that exists in spite of all the Hakaishins not just Beerus, all of them. It breaks the mold of surpassing the previous evil, which has been the unbreakable rule of Dragon Ball, like you described just using Gods instead of bad guys.

Super has, to it's benefit, inverted this logic by never having Goku and Vegeta reach Beerus. Super has always had Beerus as the strongest guy and it has been able to make it work, I repeat you fears aren't justified unless you really don't believe in who writes Dragon Ball.

Of course there are scenarios where having Beerus being the strongest would be detrimental, in this royal rumble for example. If he would just destroy everyone it would be incredibility boring and wouldn't make us care that much about the other Hakaishins.
Fortunately that's not the case, since the little we saw as Beerus running away from them and only doing it with some success due to a highly advanced technique and relying on deceitful tactics.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Legion » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:19 am

Draconic wrote:
LightBing wrote:Can people please explain to me why Beerus being the strongest or one of the strongest is bad? Why would it be better if he was weaker than some or most of them?

I truly don't understand the logic behind this. I can't imagine any positive's to the narrative, neither negatives. It actually doesn't matter unless it comes with some baggage.

Also how are people concluding the characters strength from the little we saw. It only begun and nothing conclusive happened, Beerus dodging a few Hakaishins using a super-advanced technique is perfectly reasonable.

Beerus being one of the strongest isn't really a problem. Hell, we know he is stronger than Champa already. But him being THE strongest? When there are 10 other characters or equal rank and status introduced three stories after his introduction? I'm sorry, but that only signifies plot stagnation. It's not detrimental to the arc, but to the whole story. It cheapens the other Universes for the sake of Universe 7. Not to mention that Whis might also be the best teacher, since he taught Beerus a technique no other God has.

If Beerus is the strongest and Whis is the best teacher, then of course Goku and Vegeta will eventually emerge as top dogs. Once they surpass their masters, well, they are only second to Zeno himself. Aren't all those Universes introduced supposed to be new avenues to be explored later, for Goku to get stronger once he becomes the U7 greatest warrior? The story doesn't have to go that way and it probably won't, but in case it does, the audience still has something to look forward to.

Everybody was excited back in Battle of Gods to hear of all those new places becuase of what they meant for Goku and his story, even though it was supposed to be the final Dragon Ball thing. There was nothing up on the table after that. But it was an interesting tidbit about the world that showed once more what Toriyama intended with the ending of the manga: give the audience finality, but leave it open-ended for the characters themselves.

If Goku surpasses Beerus this arc (which never seemed more likely), and Beerus is the strongest, then that's that. Game over, nothing to see here anymore.

Also, compare it for a second with how all the other gods in this series were introduced: Karin was weaker than Kami, who was weaker than Kaio, who was the butt of the jokes among the other three Kaio, who were all beneath Grand Kaio, who himself was weaker than Kaioshin, who is weaker than Beerus who is the strongest God in the 12 Universes. Doesn't look that great, does it?


However, that said, I don't feel the manga is taking that route anyway. Sure, it keeps the bad habit of everybody introduced looking like shit at everything, compared to the main characters, but I don't feel Beerus is the strongest. Again, I fully except him to be eliminated next, since I think this is how they'll decide what 4 Universes aren't going to participate and I don't think the order in which they're presented in the anime is going to be changed (especially with Sidra going out first). So he won't end up the winner, won't end up the strongest and giving him a decent showing beforehand is welcomed.

Nah.

"The two Zeno have the conversation to reduce things down to four Universes before he ever shows up at their palace in this chapter."

"The four they'd be discussing are the ones who end up not having to participate in the tournament (1, 5, 8 and 12)."

"The Hakaishin battle in the equivalent to the Zen Exhibition Match for the same reason: Future Zeno has never seen a tournament."

Anyway, i can't believe that you guys are so mad just because maybe Beerus is stronger than some Gods that probably we'll never see again after this arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Draconic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:31 am

Legion wrote:"The two Zeno have the conversation to reduce things down to four Universes before he ever shows up at their palace in this chapter."

"The four they'd be discussing are the ones who end up not having to participate in the tournament (1, 5, 8 and 12)."

"The Hakaishin battle in the equivalent to the Zen Exhibition Match for the same reason: Future Zeno has never seen a tournament."

Anyway, i can't believe that you guys are so mad just because maybe Beerus is stronger than some Gods that probably we'll never see again after this arc.

Is that stated in the manga? TDC seemed to just clarify it's about those four to some random guy, since he already knew which four would be from the anime.

LightBing wrote:I think your doubts aren't justified. It all comes down to writing and putting Beerus as the strongest doesn't hold back the story one bit, unless the writers don't have imagination.

Look at Zamasu for example, that's a threat that exists in spite of all the Hakaishins not just Beerus, all of them. It breaks the mold of surpassing the previous evil, which has been the unbreakable rule of Dragon Ball, like you described just using Gods instead of bad guys.

Super has, to it's benefit, inverted this logic by never having Goku and Vegeta reach Beerus. Super has always had Beerus as the strongest guy and it has been able to make it work, I repeat you fears aren't justified unless you really don't believe in who writes Dragon Ball.

Of course there are scenarios where having Beerus being the strongest would be detrimental, in this royal rumble for example. If he would just destroy everyone it would be incredibility boring and wouldn't make us care that much about the other Hakaishins.
Fortunately that's not the case, since the little we saw as Beerus running away from them and only doing it with some success due to a highly advanced technique and relying on deceitful tactics.


If someone would be stupid enough to that in the first place, I'd damn well be justified in not believing in that writer. Not to mention we're talking about Toyotaro, who hasn't compelled me to like any of his stories yet. I have faith in him, and high expectations of this arc, but he's certainly doing his best for the last two chapters to squash them. There's good stuff in there and I am patient with him, but this would already be strike two in just the second chapter. Luckly, as I said already, he's not doing anything to actually warrant that strike two, so I'm cool. The chapter was good and the story development during the fight seems pretty good as well, even if the fight itself is pretty bad.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Legion » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:45 am

Is that stated in the manga? TDC seemed to just clarify it's about those four to some random guy, since he already knew which four would be from the anime.

Yep.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby OLKv3 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:It's quite clear that the super manga and anime are two completely different continuities. There are just too many differences between the two to be considered identical.
Especially the battle against Hit in the U6 tournament arc and the battle against Black and Zamasu.
But now Toyotaro has to go and wank Beerus to the point where he could avoid the attacks of all 11 Gods of Destruction attacking together! While Geene alone by himself could/should be able to dominate Beerus with ease. I'm pretty sure the anime will make him far above Beerus. It's just one of those things that the Anime will handle far better.
And now U4 GoD Quitela has been stated to be the GoD who's stronger than Beerus, yet Vermouth seems to be a far better candidate for that. Couple that with the idea that said God of Destruction who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match supposively had a Mortal in that universe who's even stronger,... and then you'll realise U11's GoD makes way more sense. (Jiren!)

Anime>>>>>Manga imo.

This entire post is pretty much "It goes against my headcanon so it's bad"
jfc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:04 am

Draconic wrote:If someone would be stupid enough to that in the first place, I'd damn well be justified in not believing in that writer. Not to mention we're talking about Toyotaro, who hasn't compelled me to like any of his stories yet. I have faith in him, and high expectations of this arc, but he's certainly doing his best for the last two chapters to squash them. There's good stuff in there and I am patient with him, but this would already be strike two in just the second chapter. Luckly, as I said already, he's not doing anything to actually warrant that strike two, so I'm cool. The chapter was good and the story development during the fight seems pretty good as well, even if the fight itself is pretty bad.

I wasn't thinking exclusively of Toyotarõ, 90% Mr.Toriyama and 10% Toyotarõ and the anime writers. Although people like to argue the man barely contributes anything, this story is his.
The only thing the manga and anime are doing is adapting a script in their own way.

I personally believe there's reasons to believe in Mr.Toriyama, BoG movie and the Zamasu Arc are in my opinion in the upper tiers of Dragon Balls arcs, unfortunately FnF is abysmal.

Regarding Toyotarõ my evaluation is that he's average, with great writing in parts and awful in another's. How he wrote Trunks having healing abilities and implying it throughout the arc was very well done.
He's been improving since this started, although he still can't surpass his blandness. His strong points are how on point the characters are and actually having a logical structure to the story, something which I see a lot of people appreciating, me included.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Draconic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:28 am

LightBing wrote:
Draconic wrote:If someone would be stupid enough to that in the first place, I'd damn well be justified in not believing in that writer. Not to mention we're talking about Toyotaro, who hasn't compelled me to like any of his stories yet. I have faith in him, and high expectations of this arc, but he's certainly doing his best for the last two chapters to squash them. There's good stuff in there and I am patient with him, but this would already be strike two in just the second chapter. Luckly, as I said already, he's not doing anything to actually warrant that strike two, so I'm cool. The chapter was good and the story development during the fight seems pretty good as well, even if the fight itself is pretty bad.

I wasn't thinking exclusively of Toyotarõ, 90% Mr.Toriyama and 10% Toyotarõ and the anime writers. Although people like to argue the man barely contributes anything, this story is his.
The only thing the manga and anime are doing is adapting a script in their own way.

I personally believe there's reasons to believe in Mr.Toriyama, BoG movie and the Zamasu Arc are in my opinion in the upper tiers of Dragon Balls arcs, unfortunately FnF is abysmal.

Regarding Toyotarõ my evaluation is that he's average, with great writing in parts and awful in another's. How he wrote Trunks having healing abilities and implying it throughout the arc was very well done.
He's been improving since this started, although he still can't surpass his blandness. His strong points are how on point the characters are and actually having a logical structure to the story, something which I see a lot of people appreciating, me included.

I wasn't thinking about Toyotaro either. It's just that since this "Beerus is the strongest" only comes from this chapter, so it would be one of his things (IF it was that, which it isn't), so I thougth it would be more on the point to metion him by.

But yeah, I agree about pretty much everything you said, except maybe his strong points, but I don't really care about that discussion right now :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby The gr » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:31 am

Just How is beerus is stronger than anyone else if none of the God are at full power, there is no statement to suggest beerus is stronger than anyone else, he is just quicker than everyone else like Dyspo, with whis teaching him moving his body with out thinking which is probably an exclusive thing for whis & there's 0 evidence to suggest the exempted gods are the strongest wether is in the Anime or manga, that is just your head canon
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Kanassa » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:43 am

The gr wrote:Just How is beerus is stronger than anyone else if none of the God are at full power

Doesn't the Omni-King specifically say he wants them to go all out?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby emperior » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:46 am

Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby The gr » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:48 am

Kanassa wrote:
The gr wrote:Just How is beerus is stronger than anyone else if none of the God are at full power

Doesn't the Omni-King specifically say he wants them to go all out?

Isn't This the Same case as goku vs Bergamo, Goku wasn't going all out there, the last page mention that now is about surviving, maybe they will show how strong they are because they aren't targeting one dude that is really agile,hell maybe beerus is just faster than everyone else like Dyspo
emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

Totally, this was a toyotaro idea because he likes using the God characters a lot
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Totamo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:01 am

emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

Are you implying some things in the manga aren't Toriyama ideas?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby TheMikado » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:13 am

Totamo wrote:
emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

Are you implying some things in the manga aren't Toriyama ideas?


Absolutely. I think its more evident than ever that Toriyama isn't very specific or detailed with whatever he's giving them. I don't know how many times I have to say this but the producer of Super says that the ToP from Toriyama was barebones. When we are getting things playing out differently what other evidence do you need? If Toriyama can't be bothered to make sure all the versions of "his" story are consistent then what are we supposed to think of that. We will likely never know what Toriyama actually wrote and everything is primarily a guess unless we find specific notes like we did with SSJ Black.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby OLKv3 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:20 am

emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

This doesn't make any sense. In the chapter, the only Gods who really got the spotlight are the same ones who are important in the anime. Sidra, Clown God, and rat God.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Jigurashi » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:32 am

TheOne wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:
Noah wrote:
The manga timeline only, don't know why people still try to connect with the anime, they're clearly separated products.



Are you kidding? Jiren was never built to be mortal Whis was referencing to, both he and Beerus would have said something about him, but yet they didn't. By all the matters, Universe 4 was the subject when Whis was talking about the said mortal, so there's nothing "genius" about Toei in this case.


Oke lets sum this up for you:
1)How do you know the subject is U4? Because it was in the manga? Then you believe it? It was never mention in the anime. So it could be a manga thing only and not that important at all. Or peehaps you have Toriyama's outline?? I dont think so.

2) Wow reallyy?? The intro, the one shotting the enemy, the fearness AND fightingdrill for Jiren by Goku, the disturbing energy mention by Hit, just the look of Jiren and scaring away the enemy and the spoiler saying Goku using KAIOKEN times ?? Isnt enough. And you still think they arent building him as maybe the fake "mortal"?

3)LOLL! Why would Whis and Beerus mention it? That will give a away the trick.

I for once mention "respect for Toei" and this sentence is already quote 100 times just to be attacked. For almost 2 years beeing a member here this never happend. You guys should chill down its just a cartoon. Its not neccesarry to hate the anime/Toei.

Btw cant wait for the 1 hour special to find out if Jiren is that Mortal.

What do you guys think? Will the 1 hour special reveal all the anwsers?


You're not alone. I can't wait for this special so people can shut up about Jiren being the mortal. There's even a couple of people who bet their profiles over it.

You know why they built yon jiren this arc? It's because he's the new antagonist. They have to make it clear he's the one to beat. That doesn't mean Jiren is the mortal they mentioned.

Essentially. Jiren can still be the main foe this saga without being the Mortal that was mentioned. I fully believe Jiren is the strongest fighter in the tournament, but him being the mortal was always a little sketchy.

TheMikado wrote:
Totamo wrote:
emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

Are you implying some things in the manga aren't Toriyama ideas?


Absolutely. I think its more evident than ever that Toriyama isn't very specific or detailed with whatever he's giving them. I don't know how many times I have to say this but the producer of Super says that the ToP from Toriyama was barebones. When we are getting things playing out differently what other evidence do you need? If Toriyama can't be bothered to make sure all the versions of "his" story are consistent then what are we supposed to think of that. We will likely never know what Toriyama actually wrote and everything is primarily a guess unless we find specific notes like we did with SSJ Black.

Agreed. Toriyama seems to give Toyo and Toei enough creative control to change enough events around as long as they get all the points he has in his outline down.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby micah007 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:44 am

emperior wrote:b]Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.[/b]


If true that would be a terrible waste of characters and potential lore. This chapter to me was great primarily because we got to see the lore fleshed out a bit more, little details here and there that have been mentioned already. If Toyo is giving more attention to the gods because he can then I wouldn't fault him for it, let him cram in as much fights and scenes featuring them before they fade in the background. Quite a few of them are far to interesting looking to be reduced to eternal background decorations. Seeing the higher beings of the universe battle each other is interesting just by the fact that it is happening alone.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Zamasu55 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:57 am

The anime and the manga are different. Quitela surely isn't the one who beat Beerus in the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby pacz360 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:17 pm

Draconic wrote:
LightBing wrote:Can people please explain to me why Beerus being the strongest or one of the strongest is bad? Why would it be better if he was weaker than some or most of them?

I truly don't understand the logic behind this. I can't imagine any positive's to the narrative, neither negatives. It actually doesn't matter unless it comes with some baggage.

Also how are people concluding the characters strength from the little we saw. It only begun and nothing conclusive happened, Beerus dodging a few Hakaishins using a super-advanced technique is perfectly reasonable.

Beerus being one of the strongest isn't really a problem. Hell, we know he is stronger than Champa already. But him being THE strongest? When there are 10 other characters or equal rank and status introduced three stories after his introduction? I'm sorry, but that only signifies plot stagnation. It's not detrimental to the arc, but to the whole story. It cheapens the other Universes for the sake of Universe 7. Not to mention that Whis might also be the best teacher, since he taught Beerus a technique no other God has.

If Beerus is the strongest and Whis is the best teacher, then of course Goku and Vegeta will eventually emerge as top dogs. Once they surpass their masters, well, they are only second to Zeno himself. Aren't all those Universes introduced supposed to be new avenues to be explored later, for Goku to get stronger once he becomes the U7 greatest warrior? The story doesn't have to go that way and it probably won't, but in case it does, the audience still has something to look forward to.

Everybody was excited back in Battle of Gods to hear of all those new places becuase of what they meant for Goku and his story, even though it was supposed to be the final Dragon Ball thing. There was nothing up on the table after that. But it was an interesting tidbit about the world that showed once more what Toriyama intended with the ending of the manga: give the audience finality, but leave it open-ended for the characters themselves.

If Goku surpasses Beerus this arc (which never seemed more likely), and Beerus is the strongest, then that's that. Game over, nothing to see here anymore.

Also, compare it for a second with how all the other gods in this series were introduced: Karin was weaker than Kami, who was weaker than Kaio, who was the butt of the jokes among the other three Kaio, who were all beneath Grand Kaio, who himself was weaker than Kaioshin, who is weaker than Beerus who is the strongest God in the 12 Universes. Doesn't look that great, does it?


However, that said, I don't feel the manga is taking that route anyway. Sure, it keeps the bad habit of everybody introduced looking like shit at everything, compared to the main characters, but I don't feel Beerus is the strongest. Again, I fully except him to be eliminated next, since I think this is how they'll decide what 4 Universes aren't going to participate and I don't think the order in which they're presented in the anime is going to be changed (especially with Sidra going out first). So he won't end up the winner, won't end up the strongest and giving him a decent showing beforehand is welcomed.

beerus isn't stronger than champa there both equal

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Totamo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:06 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Totamo wrote:
emperior wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro is giving the Gods so much importance only because he designed most of them? The anime team on the other hand wanted to give Buu some screen time because of him missing the ToP later, and Gohan because he had not fought since RoF. It's possible the outline gave Toei and Toyo freedom over the Zen Exhibition as long as Goku ends up fighting Toppo. Honestly, Toei was right in not showing Beerus fighting the other Hakaishins, and I still feel like the Hakaishins were designed for decoration and not to be important to the plot. The true main characters of the arc are the ones Toriyama designed or co-designed. Toriyama must have been fine with Toyotaro designing 6 Hakaishins (and probably the Angels and Kaioshins too) because they will never play a major role.

Are you implying some things in the manga aren't Toriyama ideas?


Absolutely. I think its more evident than ever that Toriyama isn't very specific or detailed with whatever he's giving them. I don't know how many times I have to say this but the producer of Super says that the ToP from Toriyama was barebones. When we are getting things playing out differently what other evidence do you need? If Toriyama can't be bothered to make sure all the versions of "his" story are consistent then what are we supposed to think of that. We will likely never know what Toriyama actually wrote and everything is primarily a guess unless we find specific notes like we did with SSJ Black.

My friend I was being sarcastic.


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