Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:32 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Are you purposely ignoring Trunks' statement that the level Black displayed against Goku isn't much weaker than his level in the future? The obvious implication here is that SSJ3 Goku didn't show Trunks his full power.
Bullza wrote:Yeah after Trunks fought Goku he said that Black was about as strong and then said no maybe a little stronger.

Goku fought Black as a Super Saiyan and they were about equal. Then afterward Trunks said Black was a little stronger in the future.

That makes it seem as though Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are roughly the same in strenght.

Future Black >= SSJ3 Goku = Present Black = SSJ Goku

It would have made far more sense if Goku had used his Super Saiyan 3 form in that fight.
Goku was using SSJ2.

I don't see how that implicat anything. Trunks said nothing about Goku being stronger. He wondered why Goku was holding back and he was thinking about Super Saiyan 3 when he said that.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:36 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Are you purposely ignoring Trunks' statement that the level Black displayed against Goku isn't much weaker than his level in the future? The obvious implication here is that SSJ3 Goku didn't show Trunks his full power.
Bullza wrote:Yeah after Trunks fought Goku he said that Black was about as strong and then said no maybe a little stronger.

Goku fought Black as a Super Saiyan and they were about equal. Then afterward Trunks said Black was a little stronger in the future.

That makes it seem as though Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are roughly the same in strenght.

Future Black >= SSJ3 Goku = Present Black = SSJ Goku

It would have made far more sense if Goku had used his Super Saiyan 3 form in that fight.
Goku was using SSJ2.

I don't see how that implicat anything. Trunks said nothing about Goku being stronger. He wondered why Goku was holding back and he was thinking about Super Saiyan 3 when he said that.
It implies SSJ3 Goku was holding back against Trunks since SSJ3 is much stronger than SSJ2, yet Trunks describes Black as only a little stronger.

Therefore: SSJ3 Goku > Black (Future) >= SSJ3 Goku (Vs Trunks) > SSJ2 Goku = Black (Present)

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Do we actually know if he was Super Saiyan 2 though because he had sparks when he first transformed and that was it.

It was sorta like that when he definitely used Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks I suppose but I can't remember if the hair was any different in between fights or not.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:41 pm

Bullza wrote:Do we actually know if he was Super Saiyan 2 though because he had sparks when he first transformed and that was it.

It was sorta like that when he definitely used Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks I suppose but I can't remember if the hair was any different in between fights or not.
It's not particularly different from when Goku uses SSJ2 against Trunks & Zamasu. And Trunks wonders why he isn't using SSJ3, so it would suggest Goku is already at SSJ2.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:21 pm

I know it may be "pain in ass", but I would like to bring back discussion about Enraged ss2/mutation vegeta which appeared in bog and fought beerus for a bit.

I would like to know where people put him now, considering silent retcon theory and without this theory. Also about rof ss gohan in compare to ultimate. In my opinion Gohan as others characters finally hit the wall(limit to gain more power until divine/dietes methods were brought up to them). I wonder if he already in bog was slightly weaker at least as he couldn't notice any gain from training and forgetting about it or doing it too rarely was not enough to even keep up him at the same power level.
I also believe kid buu fight ss3 goku was already close to post rosat ss gotenks level or slightly above as holding back buu saga ss3 goku was around post rosat base gotenks. It could be Elder Kai giving goku's his life allowed goku to power up ss3 a bit too, but is only assumption.

Ultimate gohan should 16x times post rosat ss gotenks/kid buu fight ss3 goku. In bog I have goku getting 6 times stronger while Gohan getting 4 times weaker then in buu saga so this way Gohan was below ss3 goku in bog. Also Gotenks, due to both goten and trunks playing too much around without training got weaker 4 times I think.
Enraged ss2 vegeta was complimented by beerus and acknowledged by Roshi("Vegeta finally suprassed goku"), which would refer only to buu saga ss3 goku which was at the most ss gotenks, however beerus said "I have even more fun with you then other Saiyan at Kaio's planet" or something like thta, which means Vegeta would get 8 times stronger then he was before, easily suprassing buu saga ss3 goku(which Roshi compared him to), but also suprassing trained hardly ss3 goku bog arc.

This way original Ultimate Gohan would be still 2 times stronger then Enraged ss2 vegeta. also about rof ss gohan, to determine his power we have to determine where base gohan would be placed. I would use Rof Piccolo who also by buu arc seems to hit "wall of limit" so he barerly grown stronger or even get slightly weaker after bog as he was busy helping taking care of baby Pan, so

Rof Picoolo - 50% cell arc ssj goku
rof Base gohan - 50% cell arc ssj gohan
4x rof Base gohan - ss2 kid gohan
16x rof Base gohan - buu arc ss3 goku
rof gotenks
ss rof Gohan
80x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss gotenks
1600 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks
3200 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks

what do you guys think ? Could it make sense using silent retcon theory ?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:46 pm

I would peg Basil as Majin Vegeta level in base, between SS2 and SS3 level when fruited-up. His base form was "fun" to Buu, so at least worth some time, but still couldn't hurt him; but really, he could be at ANY level as long as he's a lot weaker than Buu. His super form actually seemed close to even with a relatively serious Buu. He got the upper hand in hand to hand (can also be put down to skill; Buu doesn't know how to fight) and was still standing after taking what was explicitly stated to be Buu's "full power" Kamehameha... albeit he collapsed only seconds later. Still though, temember that Mr. Buu put up a half-decent fight against Pure Buu, so he's very far above any SS2.

I doubt that Basil's comrades will be dozens of times stronger (or weaker) than him, and base Lavender (who would logically be a bug to Buu) is apparently a good deal stronger than base Gohan judging by the NEP. Paired with SS Gohan vs SS Goku a couple episodes ago, it looks like they're going for a retcon in regards to base Goku's strength. Then again, those massive power jumps in the Zamasu arc also must be considered. Not to mention the implication of a more than x10 difference between U6 arc and post-Zamasu arc Goku from the Hit fight. Even if Goku's base was only Buu arc base saiyan level in the U6 tournament, surely it's very much higher than that now.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:48 pm

Well all this should become much more clear once the Zen Exhibition is over, whether there was retcon or not or what got retconned we'll know about soon enough hopefully.

Forgetting that though for a minute.

The Gohan who fought Beerus must have been stronger than Buu. That would make him Mystic Gohan but whether it's at the same level as in the Buu saga or a weaker one because he's stopped training is speculative.

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was definitely stronger than Mystic Gohan, again whether it was a full power or deteriorated Mystic Gohan depends.

Base Vegeta after the training was even stronger still as was Goku who was able to put up a much greater fight against Beerus (costume or not) than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta did and at this point they're far above SSJ3 Gotenks.

Meanwhile Gohan's strength continued to deteriorate by the Resurrection F saga now being slightly stronger than Piccolo. It would also seem as a Super Saiyan he still is not as strong as he was previously as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga.

So that recent episode showing Goku and Gohan as being on even terms was bullshit. If we're lucky the next few episodes will show that Base Goku is at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan because that would keep the consistency with them being above Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:55 pm

Bullza wrote:Well all this should become much more clear once the Zen Exhibition is over, whether there was retcon or not or what got retconned we'll know about soon enough hopefully.

Forgetting that though for a minute.

The Gohan who fought Beerus must have been stronger than Buu. That would make him Mystic Gohan but whether it's at the same level as in the Buu saga or a weaker one because he's stopped training is speculative.
We honestly don't know that. Gohan's power dropped catastrophically by the time of Golden Freeza, and that was less than a year after Beerus, which was four years after the Buu arc. For all we know he could have been very weak at that point. I mean if we want to take it to the next level, shit like Piccolo having trouble with someone explicitly stated to be Zarbon-tier (vain attempts at rationalization aside), Freeza's 1.3 million line, and Krillin getting hurt by bullets all point to an absolutely ridiculous level of decay.

One thing that is basically assured though: Buu should be stronger than Piccolo. We already got heavy implications of that fact when Goku was picking people for the tournament, but base Lavender dominating base Gohan (who's been shown to be on Piccolo's level on at least two occasions) in the NEP while base Basil is a joke to Buu should basically confirm it. Unless, again, Lavender is inexplicably dozens of times stronger than Basil. And we know Piccolo isn't too far off from base Goku/Vegeta.
Base Vegeta after the training was even stronger still as was Goku who was able to put up a much greater fight against Beerus (costume or not)
This is pretty much completely invalid as a piece of evidence, because we know for a fact that Beerus could vaporize base Goku with a glare with even 1% of his strength. Goku, after ascending through SS1, SS2, SS3, and finally SSB, and then multiplying his power x10 with KK, and THEN getting what was implied to be an over x10 boost in the Zamasu arc, is still no match for Beerus. Combined with the fact that the U6 tournament shows that the normal SS boosts are still in place (so x400 from base to SS3), and SSB should be a bigger boost than all of them, and Beerus is quite literally several tens of thousands of times stronger than base Goku at minimum.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:18 pm

We honestly don't know that.
Piccolo was surprised that Beerus defeated Gohan so easily. He'd already seen Beerus stomp Note is, Buu and SSJ2 Vegeta so if Gohan was weaker then them there'd be no need for him to be so surprised.

So he must have been above Buu during that saga but then grew weaker than Buu by the next saga.
This is pretty much completely invalid as a piece of evidence, because we know for a fact that Beerus could vaporize base Goku with a glare with even 1% of his strength.
That's not the only piece of evidence though. When Goku saw Vegeta six months later he said he had grown that powerful that he was unrecognisable to him at first and might even be stronger than he was.

He was there when Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta fought Beerus so if he became unrecognisable since then that implies he's stronger.

They said he had only just reached a level where he could sense God Ki, something that he couldn't do in the Battle of Gods saga which also implies he'd grown stronger.

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was knocked unconscious when a heavily suppressed Beerus poked him in the head. Base Vegeta was still concious when a Beerus who was described as not holding back when he was asleep caught him with his foot.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:43 pm

Goku calling Vegeta's strength 'unrecognizable' isn't a terribly convincing counterpoint because he could easily have been accounting for their base forms. While one might reasonably take certain statements and feats to draw a comparison between base Vegeta post-BoG and enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, the series itself never provides a comparison between the two in any direct sense.

Also, claiming that there could be a retcon and then arguing that the Goku = Gohan scene is an inconsistency is a rather inconsistent statement itself, as the assumption that there's a retcon already presupposes the existence of an inconsistency in Super's narrative. IF there was an official retcon, it isn't wildly implausible that Toei would convey the two characters as being roughly equal in strength after said retcon was conceived.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:54 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote: It implies SSJ3 Goku was holding back against Trunks since SSJ3 is much stronger than SSJ2, yet Trunks describes Black as only a little stronger.

Therefore: SSJ3 Goku > Black (Future) >= SSJ3 Goku (Vs Trunks) > SSJ2 Goku = Black (Present)
I really doesn't since Trunks or anyone else never said anything like that.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatWyrmGold » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:16 am

apex_pretador wrote:(and what's god tier btw?)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I usually use the term to describe anyone with comparable power to Super Saiyans Blue.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Bullza wrote:...and Krillin getting hurt by bullets...
Hey, Goku was hurt by a bullet two episodes later! He must be as weak as Krillin!
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:29 am

GreatWyrmGold wrote: Hey, Goku was hurt by a bullet two episodes later! He must be as weak as Krillin!
That's exactly the implication, isn't it? Though at least he didn't get hurt as bad. He was tanking bullets as a kid before he even knew what ki was so there's no excuse for a Saiyan being hurt by bullets, his natural physiology alone is clearly enough to withstand them. This isn't even accounting for the fact that his body would have naturally grown stronger as he got older.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:16 pm

Has anyone used the ROSAT as a gauge of power? Super Boo screams to break through it to Earth while Vegeta just blows it all up. Of course, he could've powered down from Blue or an SS form after the explosion but it is worth considering.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by IKevinX » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:15 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Are you purposely ignoring Trunks' statement that the level Black displayed against Goku isn't much weaker than his level in the future? The obvious implication here is that SSJ3 Goku didn't show Trunks his full power.
Bullza wrote:Yeah after Trunks fought Goku he said that Black was about as strong and then said no maybe a little stronger.

Goku fought Black as a Super Saiyan and they were about equal. Then afterward Trunks said Black was a little stronger in the future.

That makes it seem as though Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are roughly the same in strenght.

Future Black >= SSJ3 Goku = Present Black = SSJ Goku

It would have made far more sense if Goku had used his Super Saiyan 3 form in that fight.
Goku was using SSJ2.

I don't see how that implicat anything. Trunks said nothing about Goku being stronger. He wondered why Goku was holding back and he was thinking about Super Saiyan 3 when he said that.

Vegeta also mentioned that Trunks would be unable to fight Black when he appeared in the present. And then Goku proceeded to use his SSJ2 to fight evenly with the same Black Vegeta said Trunks couldn't handle.
And Trunks still wondered why Goku wasn't using SSJ3, for which the answer was.. they were both holding back. even already having surpassed Trunks at SSJ2.

I would put SSJ3 Goku >= Black. Though the gap would shrink and revert until Black got his Saiyan Beyond God base he displayed against SSB Vegeta, before going Rosé.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:19 am

Vegeta also mentioned that Trunks would be unable to fight Black when he appeared in the present.
I hadn't noticed that before. Do you think Vegeta is saying Trunks can't win based on the energy he's currently sensing from him? Or is he saying that based on Trunks already telling him that he couldn't beat him?

If it were the former then that could be interesting. Would it be something like this then?

Future Black >= Present Black (Second power up) = SSJ2 Goku > Present Black (First Power up) > Present Black > SSJ2 Trunks

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:33 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
HeroR wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Are you purposely ignoring Trunks' statement that the level Black displayed against Goku isn't much weaker than his level in the future? The obvious implication here is that SSJ3 Goku didn't show Trunks his full power.


Goku was using SSJ2.

I don't see how that implicat anything. Trunks said nothing about Goku being stronger. He wondered why Goku was holding back and he was thinking about Super Saiyan 3 when he said that.
It implies SSJ3 Goku was holding back against Trunks since SSJ3 is much stronger than SSJ2, yet Trunks describes Black as only a little stronger.

Therefore: SSJ3 Goku > Black (Future) >= SSJ3 Goku (Vs Trunks) > SSJ2 Goku = Black (Present)
Didn't Goku said he was waiting for Black to use his full power? I don't see how he is weaker than SS3 Goku. Pretty sure he was just holding back, just like Goku.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:48 am

MisteryOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
HeroR wrote:

I don't see how that implicat anything. Trunks said nothing about Goku being stronger. He wondered why Goku was holding back and he was thinking about Super Saiyan 3 when he said that.
It implies SSJ3 Goku was holding back against Trunks since SSJ3 is much stronger than SSJ2, yet Trunks describes Black as only a little stronger.

Therefore: SSJ3 Goku > Black (Future) >= SSJ3 Goku (Vs Trunks) > SSJ2 Goku = Black (Present)
Didn't Goku said he was waiting for Black to use his full power? I don't see how he is weaker than SS3 Goku. Pretty sure he was just holding back, just like Goku.
He's weaker than SSJ3 Goku because after Trunks watches Black fight SSJ2 Goku he says he was only a little stronger in the future, if he was anywhere close to SSJ3 Goku he'd definitely be considered a lot stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:15 am

TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:So where do people think Gohan is in Base and SSJ? Personally I place his base around his SSJ2 Adult and SS on par with his Ultimate state, which would still be alright, considering he's not above SSG Goku in BoG, but is still vastly stronger than the rest of the cast apart from Goku, Vegeta and Buu, who would still be weaker by a small amount considering he doesn't train and plays with Mr Satan all day.
His base is at the very minimum as strong as if not stronger than perfect cell, and current SS gohan could very well be above his buu arc peak.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:17 am

apex_pretador wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:So where do people think Gohan is in Base and SSJ? Personally I place his base around his SSJ2 Adult and SS on par with his Ultimate state, which would still be alright, considering he's not above SSG Goku in BoG, but is still vastly stronger than the rest of the cast apart from Goku, Vegeta and Buu, who would still be weaker by a small amount considering he doesn't train and plays with Mr Satan all day.
His base is at the very minimum as strong as if not stronger than perfect cell, and current SS gohan could very well be above his buu arc peak.
That doesn't make any sense. The Old Kai unlock was supposed to draw out all of his potential and more, he shouldn't be able to get any stronger than that by natural means. The only way I can see him surpassing that level is through God ki.

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