Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

How does this prove anything?
1. You are ignoring the difference of mentalities. It is entirely possible that goku could've treated Gohan as the same level of fodder or even worse.
2. Gohan is stronger than you think. It is heavily implied that he is at his strongest ever, and his base is implied to be above mr buu by his basil fight.

Even if Gohan somehow regained the same strength he had in his Ultimate state, which he clearly hasn't, Goku should easily annihilate him in base, the fact that he had some difficulty with him even in SSJ shows that he's not as strong as we think.

THE DIFFERENCE OF MENTALITIES. Goku did not have any intention to stomp Gohan. He only wanted a good sparring match.
I can also choose to nitpick the point where goku really, really wanted to spar with someone over 100x weaker than namek freeza (Krillin). Why would he want to spar with someone so weak? Even in his "non-godly base" as you 2-base theory supporters want us to believe, he would stomp him worse than SS3 gotenks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How does this prove anything?
1. You are ignoring the difference of mentalities. It is entirely possible that goku could've treated Gohan as the same level of fodder or even worse.
2. Gohan is stronger than you think. It is heavily implied that he is at his strongest ever, and his base is implied to be above mr buu by his basil fight.

Even if Gohan somehow regained the same strength he had in his Ultimate state, which he clearly hasn't, Goku should easily annihilate him in base, the fact that he had some difficulty with him even in SSJ shows that he's not as strong as we think.

THE DIFFERENCE OF MENTALITIES. Goku did not have any intention to stomp Gohan. He only wanted a good sparring match.
I can also choose to nitpick the point where goku really, really wanted to spar with someone over 100x weaker than namek freeza (Krillin). Why would he want to spar with someone so weak? Even in his "non-godly base" as you 2-base theory supporters want us to believe, he would stomp him worse than SS3 gotenks.

Gohan was actually doing some damage to Goku.

[apex_pretador]

Even if Gohan somehow regained the same strength he had in his Ultimate state, which he clearly hasn't, Goku should easily annihilate him in base, the fact that he had some difficulty with him even in SSJ shows that he's not as strong as we think.

THE DIFFERENCE OF MENTALITIES. Goku did not have any intention to stomp Gohan. He only wanted a good sparring match.
I can also choose to nitpick the point where goku really, really wanted to spar with someone over 100x weaker than namek freeza (Krillin). Why would he want to spar with someone so weak? Even in his "non-godly base" as you 2-base theory supporters want us to believe, he would stomp him worse than SS3 gotenks.

Gohan was actually doing some damage to Goku.

And goku was suppressed.
He WANTED to have a good fight.

[ZombieVito]

Here's a new Tier list operating under the recent Base Saiyans ~ Piccolo idea I have. I'm ignoring the Copy Water arc "cuz filler" and I'm going to leave out Frieza because of complications which would also seem to be there in the manga as well.

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan God Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 Tier

Base Black (Possibly higher)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (At first)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Trunks (At first)
Final Form Frost

That inbetween Tier

Buu
Super Basil
Super Perfect Cell

Base Tier

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo
Basil/Lavender
Base Cabba
Base Trunks (Before training)
Super Saiyan Goten/Kid Trunks
Tagoma

I've got Buu below the Super Saiyans because if the Base Saiyans are as strong as Piccolo then I don't see Good Buu being over 50 times stronger than Piccolo. This could change but I'll stick with this for now.

No real idea where Trunks is supposed to be after his training. Above Zamasu as he had the upper hand over him and even in the manga he's confident he can beat him. Other that he's very questionable.

How is Tagoma weaker than Super Saiyan Trunks or Goten? I also disagree about not counting the copy Vegeta arc. There's no filler in Super.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan God Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 Tier

Base Black (Possibly higher)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (At first)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Trunks (At first)
Final Form Frost

That inbetween Tier

Buu
Super Basil
Super Perfect Cell

Base Tier

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo
Basil/Lavender
Base Cabba
Base Trunks (Before training)
Super Saiyan Goten/Kid Trunks
Tagoma

I've got Buu below the Super Saiyans because if the Base Saiyans are as strong as Piccolo then I don't see Good Buu being over 50 times stronger than Piccolo. This could change but I'll stick with this for now.

No real idea where Trunks is supposed to be after his training. Above Zamasu as he had the upper hand over him and even in the manga he's confident he can beat him. Other that he's very questionable.

I agree with most of this, except for a few things. I would put Base Cabba and Base F. Trunks right next to each other with a slash. I'm curious on your reasoning why he is slightly below. I don't think Magetta was stronger than Final Form Frost. I may be wrong, but I always got the feeling that he was only getting the edge because of the aerial barrier and his heat -- not strong in power. I also think Spirit Bomb Sword Trunks was weaker than SSB KKx10 Goku because SSB Vegito weakened Merged Zamasu a ton. It was to the point where he was very slow.

Final Form Frieza is a tricky situation, yeah, because how would he be stronger than SS Gohan in his First Form unless Base Goku was stronger than that? This means he almost had to have a second base form

Or ... we need to find an explanation in-universe for this retcon.

[ChiefWamsutta]

How is Tagoma weaker than Super Saiyan Trunks or Goten? I also disagree about not counting the copy Vegeta arc. There's no filler in Super.

Yeah, Base Copy-Vegeta and SSB Copy-Vegeta should be the same as where Vegeta is.

This would just have to mean that SS3 Gotenks lost a lot of power since the Buu Saga ... Perhaps Gohan in RoF never had his Base or SS get weaker, but rather he just lost Ultimate and SS2. Those two stayed generally in the same region versus dipping drastically in such short a time.


The one thing we can't deny is that at one point Goku's Super Saiyan was at SSGod level ... I'm trying to think of a way that could be changed to closer to Buu for this to makes much more sense ... Ugh

[Bullza]

How is Tagoma weaker than Super Saiyan Trunks or Goten?

I have Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten above Base Gohan and Piccolo from the Resurrection F saga because when Goku was trying to pick up energy to teleport to Earth he couldn't feel Gohan's energy when he was powering up until he turned Super Saiyan.

He was able to feel Super Saiyan Kid Trunks fairly quickly though which to me implies he was stronger. Tagoma could be stronger because he was stronger than Base Gohan but I just put him below.

I would put Base Cabba and Base F. Trunks right next to each other with a slash. I'm curious on your reasoning why he is slightly below.

Well Cabba was on par with Vegeta in the Universe 6 saga. I don't think the Future Trunks saga was supposed to be long after this, maybe even just days later so Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be that much stronger.

And in that saga Trunks seemed to be a chunk below Goku because it was said that Trunks couldn't handle Black when he appeared in the present whereas Goku was equal to him and that when Black powered up twice more.

By the time they go back to the future he's likely stronger though.

Final Form Frieza is a tricky situation, yeah, because how would he be stronger than SS Gohan in his First Form unless Base Goku was stronger than that?

Yeah that is tricky because what happened in the manga continuity? Goku didn't absorb God so he's he's not super strong so what happened during those events?

Did Goku use the Super Saiyan God form, which is the equivalent of Saiyan Beyond God, to fight Frieza instead? Is that what should have happened in the anime?

They obviously changed something with the power scale for one reason or another. We can only speculate why but clearly something happened behind the scenes.

[RandomGuy96]

Nitpick, but I don't agree with final form Frost being in the SS tier. He was plainly much weaker than SS Goku (who was holding back to not seriously hurt him) and not too far off from Piccolo- less than x2 likely given he didn't one-shot him or move faster than he could see or anything. I mean yeah, Frost had lost power by that point. But it seems extremely unlikely that he was down to 5% or whatever. I mean if Piccolo and base Goku are both 1s, and SS Goku a 50, then what was final form Frost originally? 35 and then he dropped to under 2? He wasn't even seriously injured.

At the very least Frost is much closer to the base saiyans than the Super Saiyans. He should be probably rate below Buu.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Does the two-base theory extend to there being two-SSJ1s, SSJ2s, etc.? (And that's not including the potential Blue forms.)

[Ki Breaker]

So what conclusion has been agreed upon by now?
Does goku keep the base power level he faught freeza at or is he nerfed to when he first met berrus?

[Shlugo]

Piccolo was weaker than RoF SSJ1 Gohan, who was nowhere near first form Freeza, while Goku was on par with fourth form Freeza. There's a huge gap here.


The power levels probably look something like this.


SSJ1 Goku>> SSJ1 Gohan (current)>>>Base Goku>>Ultimate Gohan>=Base Gohan (current)>SSJ3 Gotenks>Boo>SSJ1 Gotenks>>>Piccolo.


Of course, that's just a provisional list, probably due to change soon. The thing with Super, is that there seems to be much greater mobility along the power scale than in Z. Heck, if Tagoma can go from Zarbon level, to being stronger than Piccolo after four months of getting tortured by Freeza, I can believe in any gains anyone gets.

Seriously, this retcon thing is just grasping at straws at this point. "There's a lot of confusing data, so let's just say all that which I don't like doesn't count anymore so it's nice and simple!"

[SansrivaaL]

Here's a new Tier list operating under the recent Base Saiyans ~ Piccolo idea I have. I'm ignoring the Copy Water arc "cuz filler" and I'm going to leave out Frieza because of complications which would also seem to be there in the manga as well.

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan God Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 Tier

Base Black (Possibly higher)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (At first)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Trunks (At first)
Final Form Frost

That inbetween Tier

Buu
Super Basil
Super Perfect Cell

Base Tier

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo
Basil/Lavender
Base Cabba
Base Trunks (Before training)
Super Saiyan Goten/Kid Trunks
Tagoma

I've got Buu below the Super Saiyans because if the Base Saiyans are as strong as Piccolo then I don't see Good Buu being over 50 times stronger than Piccolo. This could change but I'll stick with this for now.

No real idea where Trunks is supposed to be after his training. Above Zamasu as he had the upper hand over him and even in the manga he's confident he can beat him. Other that he's very questionable.

Dont have much of a problem with this, he applied the 2base theory which I go with so its all good.
But still I would put Goku and Vegeta's SSJ above Gohan's. Also a lil nitpick would be, Trunks doesnt have SSJB, its SSJBSRage!!

[ssbgoku]

So what conclusion has been agreed upon by now?
Does goku keep the base power level he faught freeza at or is he nerfed to when he first met berrus?

In my opinion neither works but I will stick to two base theory. I base my conclusions on only events/feats and statements which happened in main arcs which are:

- frieeza wanted to suprass majin buu after his ressurection
- rof piccolo seemed to hit wall about progress so I keep him barerly above buu arc piccolo who is at the best cell arc ss goku.
- rof frieeza complimented goku about suprassing majin buu power level while mentioning they both suprassed this level and this is just after frieza transformed to final form. This put rof first form frieza and rof ss gohan inferrior to good buu unless ss gohan was stronger abd frieza caught him off guard.
- base goku being called current buu crazy strong while "enraged" reference to (fat buu) and wanting buu before piccolo.
- Frost being compared to rof frieeza by goku.
- Future trunks being on par with at least ss2 goku and trunks was implied to reach ss2 against dabura while struggling.
- Current gohan still being weaker then buu arc Ultimate self although getting close.

Discard as gags/padding to main arcs scenes like:
- episodes between ressurection of frieeza and bog
- episodes between rof frieeza and u6 begining
- episodes between u6 tournament end and ft arc
- episodes between ft arc end and current arc.

Basically unless plot influence change all beerus statements or attacks against goku/vegeta. So:

Buu arc ultimate gohan > super buu >current ss gohan > buu arc ss gotenks > current base goku/base vegeta > magenta > ss cabba > frost > rof final form frieza > rof base goku /vegeta > rof ss gohan > rof ss gotenks> fat buu > lavenda > rof first form frieza > good buu > current base gohan> basil u6 piccolo > base cabba > perfect cell > base gohan >= rof piccolo

[pacz360]

How? It disproves the "2-base misconception" if anything, by proving base gohan is easily on the same level as buu.


It makes the chain pretty clear:

SS Goku >> SS Gohan > Base goku >> Poisoned SS Gohan > Base gohan > Lavender >= Buu >= Poisoned Base gohan > Basil with steriods >= M vegeta >= Buff basil >>> Dabura >= Perfect cell

So

Base goku is significantly stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG level.

Because this exists:



And this:

2 base theory/Retcon theory is real.

Not really no.

[pacz360]

I'd rank current Gohan somewhere between Mr Boo and his Ultimate self.

I could go with this.

[pacz360]

This thread is toxic

So is most shit in the internet.

[Draconic]

Does the two-base theory extend to there being two-SSJ1s, SSJ2s, etc.? (And that's not including the potential Blue forms.)

No, the idea is that they have a regular base, from which the old forms derive, which is around the Buu arc version (a little stronger due to training, but the same tier) while also another God-"base", from which they go Blue.

[Alruneia]

Does the two-base theory extend to there being two-SSJ1s, SSJ2s, etc.? (And that's not including the potential Blue forms.)

The two base theory, at least originally, says that going SSJ while having god ki active in base turns you Blue automatically. So no, not really. The theory has probably changed a bit since I stopped looking into it, though.

[ssbgoku]

I'd rank current Gohan somewhere between Mr Boo and his Ultimate self.

I could go with this.

Yeah that fine with me too but I believe closer to good buu unless he made big gains meanwhile.

- goku wanting buu before gohan shows that they are at least same tier considering how he felt ss gohan pushing himself to call for help.Also calling buu crazy strong shows that fat buu would be in same tier as ss gohan albeit weaker but having regen and no stamina issue.

Super buu > ss2 gotenks > current ss gohan > buu arc post rosat ss gotenks > rof ss gohan >= ss gotenks >fat buu > good buu > piccolo~ base gohan.

That also proves piccolo couldnt get stronger then imperfect cell or close for it to make sense

[Shlugo]

Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in RoF, though still much weaker than Freeza even as Super Saiyan. Later the two of them train for what I think was eight months, and seem to have made crazy gains as Piccolo is at least in the same order of magnitude of power as Base Goku and Vegeta, and base Gohan was fighting on par with him, and was training himself ever since then.

Now I think the simplest explanation - one that doesn't involve "two bases," or retcons, or just outright ignoring stuff - is to take it for what it is, and accept that Gohan and Piccolo just increased in power a lot since RoF arc. I think a lot of people are balking at it because that would mean some truly crazy gains for no adequately explained reason, but I think that at this point we should just accept that Super is just a lot more generous with power increases that Z ever was. There's no in-universe reason for that, it's just how the series is written now.

With that said I would put the power scale somewhere like:


Base Goku>>Ultimate Gohan>=Current Base Gohan>ss3 Gotenks>= Current Piccolo> Super buu > ss2 gotenks > ss gohan (rof) > ss gotenks > buu >Base Gohan (rof)>Piccolo (rof)

It's not perfect, or free of contradictions, but I don't think we can make one at this point without outright ignoring stuff that's inconvenient to our vision.