Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You gotta look at the narrative beats, and try not to use the old rules as the absolute standard to abide by.

Gohan's strength is based on him being acknowledged over Piccolo as the strongest of the Z-Warriors during RoF, before he unveiled Super Saiyan. That, and he's going toe-to-toe in a pretty intense sparring session with his old mentor when Goku and Vegeta find him to try and recruit him at first, and the two were quite clearly stronger than in the previous arc.

As for the tournament, martial arts skill was being emphasized over pure power. Vegeta lost not because he wasn't strong, but because he lacked the knowledge of how to counter Hit's Time-Skip. Goku had this knowledge, and thus could counter Hit. Simple as that. That's the narrative, no need to try and make a complicated power scale where it isn't needed. Goku used skill to counter Hit, easy-peezy, no point in using powerscaling.

As for Frost, Goku flat out told Piccolo he had no chance, to which he agreed. He then has to go on the defensive/evasive, using trickery and martial arts to maneuver Frost's decreasing power and stamina into a favourable position to use an overcharged Makankosappo beyond its normal limits to DEFEAT Frost. It was only gonna beat Frost, be it ring-out or knockout, not kill him. Again, like the later example of Goku VS. Hit, skill was used to beat the opponent. No need to come up with a complicated power scale, because the narrative's general beats already explained this one.

As for the Ki Onset Disorder, this same Goku goes on to fight toe-to-toe with Copy-Vegeta, an exact match of Vegeta that curbstomped SS3 Gotenks. As well, Goku was in base form when he told Piccolo that even he could beat him now, and no mention or implication of Super Saiyan came up.

[LowRyder2005]

About the Goku's ki disorder thing, when did he ever say he would lose to Piccolo with his BASE? I remember him saying such a thing but I don't remember him ever explicitly saying only his base was now weaker than Piccolo. Maybe Goku meant his full power wouldn't have been enough to beat Piccolo at that point? By the way that was mostly a gag so it wouldn't really matter to me.

Well, the statement is there. Piccolo asks if the disease is "that bad" and Goku answers "yeah, even you could beat me if we were to fight right now".
It doesn't exactly give a clear answer as whether Piccolo could beat base Goku under normal conditions, though: its meaning ranges from something like "I can't beat you because I can't turn Super Saiyan" to "I can't beat because my base/ Super Saiyan form has been weakened just that much".

Obviously - if you follow the notion that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in ROF even when untransformed - I suppose you'd probably have regular base Goku above Piccolo already.

[HybridSaiyan]

It'll always be Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Roshi.

Tien was always training, and I mean always training. (Saiyan arc to Universal arc)
Krillin gave up martial arts after Cell, so did Yamcha.
And Roshi has never trained In Z (Somehow gained higher strength than all the other earthlings)

Don't put trust in Supers power levels because it's all BS and asspulls because of "plot"

I'll wait for the manga for clarification.

[ZombieVito]

It'll always be Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Roshi.

Tien was always training, and I mean always training. (Saiyan arc to Universal arc)
Krillin gave up martial arts after Cell, so did Yamcha.
And Roshi has never trained In Z (Somehow gained higher strength than all the other earthlings)

Don't put trust in Supers power levels because it's all BS and asspulls because of "plot"

I'll wait for the manga for clarification.

So Toriyama's word means nothing to you?

[HybridSaiyan]

It'll always be Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Roshi.

Tien was always training, and I mean always training. (Saiyan arc to Universal arc)
Krillin gave up martial arts after Cell, so did Yamcha.
And Roshi has never trained In Z (Somehow gained higher strength than all the other earthlings)

Don't put trust in Supers power levels because it's all BS and asspulls because of "plot"

I'll wait for the manga for clarification.

So Toriyama's word means nothing to you?

Would Toriyama's word mean nothing to you if Mr.Satan became Frieza tier?

That's how I feel with these characters getting asspull power ups.

[The gr]

It'll always be Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Roshi.

Tien was always training, and I mean always training. (Saiyan arc to Universal arc)
Krillin gave up martial arts after Cell, so did Yamcha.
And Roshi has never trained In Z (Somehow gained higher strength than all the other earthlings)

Don't put trust in Supers power levels because it's all BS and asspulls because of "plot"

I'll wait for the manga for clarification.

So Toriyama's word means nothing to you?

how do we know roshi being stronger than tien was a Toriyama idea, let's wait for the manga to cover roshi and Tien,if roshi does not show anything impressive against Tien,is safe to say roshi≥tien is a toei thing

[ZombieVito]

It'll always be Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Roshi.

Tien was always training, and I mean always training. (Saiyan arc to Universal arc)
Krillin gave up martial arts after Cell, so did Yamcha.
And Roshi has never trained In Z (Somehow gained higher strength than all the other earthlings)

Don't put trust in Supers power levels because it's all BS and asspulls because of "plot"

I'll wait for the manga for clarification.

So Toriyama's word means nothing to you?

how do we know roshi being stronger than tien was a Toriyama idea, let's wait for the manga to cover roshi and Tien,if roshi does not show anything impressive against Tien,is safe to say roshi≥tien is a toei thing

Guess I should have specified. I was talking about him saying Tenshinhan > Kuririn.

[HybridSaiyan]

So Toriyama's word means nothing to you?

how do we know roshi being stronger than tien was a Toriyama idea, let's wait for the manga to cover roshi and Tien,if roshi does not show anything impressive against Tien,is safe to say roshi≥tien is a toei thing

Guess I should have specified. I was talking about him saying Tenshinhan > Kuririn.

I still think applying logic, Tien should be stronger than Krillin. Not by much though, but still stronger.
Krillin only recently started doing his gym training, but that shouldn't increase his power level above everything Tien has done. I think Krillin is shown to be stronger because he's popular with the fanbase.

[Doctor.]

So...

1 - Goku
2 - Vegeta
3 - #17
4 - Gohan
5 - Boo
6 - Piccolo
7 - #18
8 - Kuririn
9 - Roshi
10 - Tenshinhan

That's how it is, right? #17, Vegeta and Gohan are more-or-less interchangeable depending on how the arc goes and what they decide to do with Gohan's potential and #17's inclusion.

I still think applying logic, Tien should be stronger than Krillin. Not by much though, but still stronger.
Krillin only recently started doing his gym training, but that shouldn't increase his power level above everything Tien has done. I think Krillin is shown to be stronger because he's popular with the fanbase.

Applying logic, Tenshinhan should be stronger than Roshi and yet that's not what was shown.

[The gr]

Guess I should have specified. I was talking about him saying Tenshinhan > Kuririn.

Oh that,I think krillin is still above Tien, because it looks like he's relative to #18 in episode 88 but I want to fully judge Tien and piccolo in episode 90, because This week it looks Tien got caught off guard or buff roshi and Tien are relative to each other in term of power, either way let's wait and see how Tien perform against piccolo and Gohan

[HybridSaiyan]

Guess I should have specified. I was talking about him saying Tenshinhan > Kuririn.

Oh that,I think krillin is still above Tien, because it looks like he's relative to #18 in episode 88 but I want to fully judge Tien and piccolo in episode 90, because This week it looks Tien got caught off guard or buff roshi and Tien are relative to each other in term of power, either way let's wait and see how Tien perform against piccolo and Gohan

But shouldn't have Krillin lost a lot of power after Cell?
Don't get me wrong, I love Krillin but to have him stronger than Tien doesn't make sense
He's only recently gotten his fighting sense back again.

Even the old Toei movies had Tien take on Trunks, forcing him to go SSJ.
He also held back Semi-Perfect Cell. All that whilst Tien continued to train after Cell, honing his skills.

[Bullza]

I'm pretty sure that Goku told Android 17 that Krillin was also stronger than ever so he should definitely be at the highest level he's ever been at.

[SaiyanGod117]

Bad writing is bad writing, if Gohan is a match or close to match for SSB Goku in the next episode. Then it's bad writing plain and simple, it makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to able to reach Goku's level just because he retrained himself for barely half a day.

[The gr]

Bad writing is bad writing, if Gohan is a match or close to match for SSB Goku in the next episode. Then it's bad writing plain and simple, it makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to able to reach Goku's level just because he retrained himself for barely half a day.

Yup is bad writing and when you think about it,is unnecessary to power him up, since mystic is pretty strong,if Gohan went god tier in 90,is ikari Trunks all over again,I like him and all, but this is just pandering to the fanboys like with #17 being god tier but don't worry someone is going put these god tier character to Justice like #17 and probably Gohan being Below the realms of gods, and it is this man [spoiler][/spoiler]

[SaiyanGod117]

Bad writing is bad writing, if Gohan is a match or close to match for SSB Goku in the next episode. Then it's bad writing plain and simple, it makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to able to reach Goku's level just because he retrained himself for barely half a day.

Yup is bad writing and when you think about it,is unnecessary to power him up, since mystic is pretty strong,if Gohan went god tier in 90,is ikari Trunks all over again,I like him and all, but this is just pandering to the fanboys like with #17 being god tier but don't worry someone is going put these god tier character to Justice like #17 and probably Gohan being Below the realms of gods, and it is this man [spoiler][/spoiler]

I agree, there should be no reason to power him up any further for this arc.

[RandomGuy96]

I basically haven't been paying attention since the start of the arc. Quick version, did anything notable happen in terms of the power scale?

Did the old base issue finally get solved?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I basically haven't been paying attention since the start of the arc. Quick version, did anything notable happen in terms of the power scale?

Did the old base issue finally get solved?

Nothing notable, and there wasn't really an issue in the first place. In my personal opinion on the latter, anyways.

[Bullza]

I basically haven't been paying attention since the start of the arc. Quick version, did anything notable happen in terms of the power scale?

Did the old base issue finally get solved?

Some old information for the Resurrection F movie came to light which has a bunch thinking the two base thing is all but confirmed.

I dont really know about all that but it would seem that Gohan probably isn't too different from his Buu saga strength and seeing as Goku matched him then he could also be similar to his Buu saga level strength too.

[RandomGuy96]

I basically haven't been paying attention since the start of the arc. Quick version, did anything notable happen in terms of the power scale?

Did the old base issue finally get solved?

Some old information for the Resurrection F movie came to light which has a bunch thinking the two base thing is all but confirmed.

I dont really know about all that but it would seem that Gohan probably isn't too different from his Buu saga strength and seeing as Goku matched him then he could also be similar to his Buu saga level strength too.

What info was that?

Also apparently Good Buu > base Goku was confirmed?

[Bullza]

What info was that?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Also apparently Good Buu > base Goku was confirmed?

It would seem so but if there was anything to this theory then Good Buu being stronger than ordinary Base Goku would be expected.

It wouldn't make any sense for him to be stronger than Saiyan Beyond God Goku just by training for an hour though.