Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I'm curious why are you putting merged Zamasu above Complete SSB Goku
Because he is immortal or because of the strain Complete SSB puts on Gokus body?

The former mainly but I suppose just both. Merged Zamasu can maintain his health and power much better than what Goku can.

[RandomGuy96]

17, Gohan, Frieza, and one might even argue, Piccolo are all presumably leagues above any form of Buu at this point. Why would Goku go SSB just to fight with a fraction of his power? Times have changed, the Buu saga's finest are mere fodders at this point.

Tagoma going on about Base Gohan being the strongest out of the group likely holds more validity than people are giving credit for. Verbal recognition of one's power is usually there to give some transparency to otherwise ambiguous power scales. With that in mind, I would say the following power scale isn't all that farfetched.

Ultimate Gohan (vs Goku) > > Ultimate Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Piccolo (current unweighted) > SSJ2 Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc) > Piccolo (current weighted) > Super Buu > SSJ Gohan (vs Piccolo) > Tagoma > Base Gohan > Piccolo (RoF)

Base Gohan / RoF Piccolo were both probably MSSJ tier, while Gohan's then SSJ form was probably a few notches short of his Buu saga Ultimate incarnation.

I'd say this is kind of overrating episode 88's Ultimate Gohan. The implication from Goku & Piccolo seemed to be that Gohan has been weaker than Ultimate Gohan in Super, up until episode 88. I'd say SSJ2 Gohan (88) is still weaker than Super Boo, while Piccolo is approaching that level.







So I'd say it's more like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Z) > Piccolo (Unweighted) > SSJ2 Gohan > Piccolo (weights) > SSJ Gohan. This is of course, before episode 90. Where Gohan has powered-up massively in every form. Since he fought on par with Base Goku, the same Goku who tanked Piccolo's explosive wave. (Not sure of the name of that attack.) So, Gohan improved a lot, or Piccolo was holding back a lot. Or Goku was holding back a lot until that point. Kinda muddy, but I'll go with Gohan having gotten stronger. As that was the episode's point.

So I guess that's an explicit confirmation that Buu-era Ultimate Gohan was stronger than his previous Super incarnations and current Piccolo. Did anything happen to the SS Gohan ~ SS Goku business from the pre-tournament episodes?

[Hugo Boss]

People who can read the manga, does it explain how SSB is comparable to SSG when Goku and Vegeta are not holding Blue's power? Or can't you tell when SSB is weaker than SSG?

[Basako]

People who can read the manga, does it explain how SSB is comparable to SSG when Goku and Vegeta are not holding Blue's power? Or can't you tell when SSB is weaker than SSG?

SSB (including non mastered) is a stronger form than the SSG, the narrator stated that after the RoF arc and characters some other times. But it can go below SSG levels, as happened to Vegeta when he fought Hit. That doesn't mean he would have been stronger in SSG then, because the lost stamina wouldn't come back for that. I don't know if I've answered your question.

[Hugo Boss]

People who can read the manga, does it explain how SSB is comparable to SSG when Goku and Vegeta are not holding Blue's power? Or can't you tell when SSB is weaker than SSG?

SSB (including non mastered) is a stronger form than the SSG, the narrator stated that after the RoF arc and characters some other times. But it can go below SSG levels, as happened to Vegeta when he fought Hit. That doesn't mean he would have been stronger in SSG then, because the lost stamina wouldn't come back for that. I don't know if I've answered your question.

More or less. The only time I remember SSG being explicitly stronger than SSB was when they fought Hit.

After that, SS Black managed to become slightly stronger than SSB Vegeta, but then Vegeta apparently wasn't using the same strategy Goku used against Hit. Well, he didn't do anything different from when he fought Hit really.

And a day after that, as a SSG, Vegeta was doing fine defending himself against SSR Black, keeping SSB for quick assaults.

My question is more related to how the manga seems to portray SSB when they aren't using tricks to keep its power at max.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I have a doubt. Black SSJ Rosé could get stronger in the manga? He was being defeated by Vegeta, but he did not even ask Zamasu to heal him.He had gotten all of Goku's power? Was he on the edge and the Zenkais had no effect?

[TAF108]

So I guess that's an explicit confirmation that Buu-era Ultimate Gohan was stronger than his previous Super incarnations and current Piccolo. Did anything happen to the SS Gohan ~ SS Goku business from the pre-tournament episodes?

It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I don't think we need to think to hard about it, it adds up with all the dialogue and implications from prior episodes. This was just them out right saying it. Goku V Gohan can be rationalized however. But 88 and it's promotional material make it clear he hasn't touched his previous strength since the fight with Super Boo. Though I'd argue he was probably this strength against Beerus. (Though he could've been weaker, I mean he got one-shotted by Majin Boo's body.)

And Gohan powered-up significantly in 90, I'd wager Piccolo did to. So current Piccolo could've surpassed Ultimate Gohan (Z), just as Gohan himself did.

[ZombieVito]

So I guess that's an explicit confirmation that Buu-era Ultimate Gohan was stronger than his previous Super incarnations and current Piccolo. Did anything happen to the SS Gohan ~ SS Goku business from the pre-tournament episodes?

It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I don't think we need to think to hard about it, it adds up with all the dialogue and implications from prior episodes. This was just them out right saying it. Goku V Gohan can be rationalized however. But 88 and it's promotional material make it clear he hasn't touched his previous strength since the fight with Super Boo. Though I'd argue he was probably this strength against Beerus. (Though he could've been weaker, I mean he got one-shotted by Majin Boo's body.)

And Gohan powered-up significantly in 90, I'd wager Piccolo did to. So current Piccolo could've surpassed Ultimate Gohan (Z), just as Gohan himself did.

Well since Gohan had been training with Piccolo for a year, his base form should be stronger than his Boo arc one and that makes his Ultimate form stronger as well. Add that to whatever he did between episodes 88 and 90 and he reached god tier.

[Bullza]

I don't know if I'd say his Base form is currently stronger than it was in the Buu saga.

Being as he stopped training then by the Resurrection F saga he should be weaker than he was in the Buu saga. He retrained after that with Piccolo for an unknown amount of time. He may have only just got back up to where he was.

[TAF108]

Well since Gohan had been training with Piccolo for a year, his base form should be stronger than his Boo arc one and that makes his Ultimate form stronger as well. Add that to whatever he did between episodes 88 and 90 and he reached god tier.

I'd say it kinda depends on how you look at how strong Gohan was Post Z sword training, then there was that Kiai he did when he was upset the ritual was taking so long. All of his training from RoF to 88 was to regain the strength he'd lost in the years he'd stopped training. (So I guess the years from the defeat of Boo, to the fight with Beerus, till he really hit the fan after training RoF.) It seems pretty explicit that Gohan's never been stronger than he was till 90. I'm also not to fond of the word "god tier", it's pretty arbitrary. Especially in Super. You'd have to specific as to what gods you're referring to.

He's reached the levels of current Blues. But soon it'll just be Goku, as Vegeta will likely pop out of the time chamber much stronger.

[MagmonKai]

So, how will everyone feel when Goku reaches some new realm of power, when he did only 20 mins of training with Whis? I mean it don't even look like he slept for the last 40 hours running around recruiting people. I'm just curious as to how Goku is going to obtain this new power teased in the opening. Will it be a Freeza type thing where he achieves it mid-fight? We haven't had that happen in a while.

[GodKaio-Ken]

So, how will everyone feel when Goku reaches some new realm of power, when he did only 20 mins of training with Whis? I mean it don't even look like he slept for the last 40 hours running around recruiting people. I'm just curious as to how Goku is going to obtain this new power teased in the opening. Will it be a Freeza type thing where he achieves it mid-fight? We haven't had that happen in a while.

To be honest I think he already has it but is keeping it his secret. Hes talked about surpassing his limits several times as if hes confident it will 100% happen. Alternatively he knows hes close.

[Bullza]

Yeah wasn't there already something implied with the Toppo fight?

[MagmonKai]

Yeah wasn't there already something implied with the Toppo fight?

I vaguely remember that line, but I kinda just assumed he was thinking of just KKx10 or something!

[TAF108]

I'm just assuming that whatever it is, he's been working on for his own for a while now. In secret I suppose, as Super loves to have it's characters do.

[SansrivaaL]

Super loves throwing nostalgia vibes, what best than to have Goku act like his Boo arc self with a new form in secret like with SSJ3.

[Legion]

Against Toppo it was just full power kaioken, imo. Surpassing his limit by adding a forced multiplier. In fact Goku used kaioken in that moment.

[ZombieVito]

I don't know if I'd say his Base form is currently stronger than it was in the Buu saga.

Being as he stopped training then by the Resurrection F saga he should be weaker than he was in the Buu saga. He retrained after that with Piccolo for an unknown amount of time. He may have only just got back up to where he was.

I think I agree. It wouldn't make sense for him to not be able to stay Super Saiyan for long if he is as strong as his Boo arc peak in RoF.

[MasterVampire]

So after the black saga and new tournament coming Goku MUST be stronger then Golden Freezer now right.?
Just in SSJB not even counting Kaio Ken thing and all.

[Bullza]

So after the black saga and new tournament coming Goku MUST be stronger then Golden Freezer now right.?
Just in SSJB not even counting Kaio Ken thing and all.

Drastically so. Golden Frieza was strong but not enormously more power than Goku.

Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta fought together that they'd be able to defeat Golden Frieza but even after they'd gotten stronger by the Future Trunks saga the two of them fighting together and Trunks were still getting kicked around with little effort by SSJR Black at the same time.

Of course Black then powered up further after receiving that beat down from Goku. Then Vegeta trained in the Rosat and got angry and he kicked the shit out of him.

At the very least Golden Frieza shouldn't be nearly as strong as SSJR Black on first appearance never mind the current Goku or Vegeta.