Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:10 pm

how much SSB is stronger than SSG? It has never been talked about the multipliers of these forms and nor the level of their Power ups, just to discuss the strength level of the SSB transformation

In the manga, Goku SSG was stronger than Vegeta Blue with 10% of his power.
That is, the SSG has at least 10% of the strength of a SSB right?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

But in this case, would the increase in strength that the transformation give would not be small? Or are the calculations different?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:27 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Super Trunks assisted in the fight against Fused Zamasu, although there's no indication that he improved substantially in the same vein as Vegeta's boosts or even Black's boosts during that particular skirmish. His feat entailed assisting Vegeta, but I wouldn't say it's anything on par with what Goku did against Fused Zamasu by himself. I think he's likely still below Black.
I can respect your opinion on this, and you may have even convinced me of your view. :)

I am going to put asterisks next to the positions I agree with, if that is okay.
Marlowe89 wrote: My ranking would probably go something like this:

Jiren (maybe?)
Vegito Blue
*Beerus
*Champa
*Half-Corrupted Fused Zamasu
*Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
*Toppo
Fused Zamasu
***Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
*Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
*Super Trunks
Hit (only accounting for raw strength here)
*Super Saiyan God's power
I'm still struggling to why SSB Vegito would be greater than Beerus and Champa. I feel like the anime would make a much bigger deal when a character surpasses Beerus. That's part of the reason I put SSB Vegito and Jiren below Beerus. I do agree that SSB Vegito is very close, as stated in the manga and hinted in the anime, but I still believe he is below.

Hmmm, interesting that you put Merged Zamasu so close to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. How come you think Toppo is stronger than him?

Hit, yeah, I am not sure where he stands exactly. We will probably get a better gauge as the tournament continues.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:07 am

This is mine as of episode 100:

Zeno Tier
Zeno | Future Zeno | Infinite Zamasu

Considering Zamasu's feats I like putting him equal to Zeno's power which is infinity.

Angel Tier
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

The Grand Priest is obviously way ahead of every angel.

GoD Tier
Zeno's Attendants
Jiren
Belmod
Beerus
Champa
SSB Vegetto
Merged Zamasu [Half Corrupted]

Belmod is definitely the GoD that is stronger than Beerus so that explains Jiren's place. I still think Vegetto is slightly inferior to both Beerus and Champa.


SSB Tier
SSR Future Trunks [Genki Sword]
Merged Zamasu [Halo form]
SSB KKx2 Goku | Toppo
SSB Vegeta
SSB Goku | Golden Freeza | SSR Goku Black
Hit
Gohan [Ulimate form]
SSR Future Trunks
SSB Commeson Vegeta
SbG Vegeta
SbG Goku | Goku Black

I have Vegeta slightly stronger than Goku thanks to his training in the RoSaT. Gohan and Hit could change places.

High to Low SSG Tier
Bergamo [Absorptions]
SbG Commeson Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Kale [Berserker]
SSJ2 Future Trunks [Quake of Fury]
Future Zamasu
SSJ2 Vegeta [Quake of Fury]

One theory of mine is that Trunks used Vegeta's power up in episode 57. It makes things easier to power scale. Kale could be lower or higher.

SSJ3 Tier
SSJ3 Goku | SSJ3 Gotenks
Slim Boo
Final Form Frost
First Form Freeza
Vegetto

Slim Boo could be higher on the list, I haven't decided yet. Frost trained so he should be stronger than Piccolo still.

SSJ2 Tier
SSJ2 Vegeta
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Caulifla | SSJ2 Future Trunks
Piccolo
17
SSJ2 Gohan
Good Boo
Basil [Drugged]
Zamasu

17 can and probably change. Zamasu is the present one.


SSJ Tier
SSJ Vegeta
SSJ Goku | SSJ Gotenks
SSJ Caulifla
SSJ Gohan
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
Barry Kahn [Watagash]
Tagoma [Ginyu]
SSJ Trunks
SSJ Goten

Base Tier
18
Vegeta
Goku | Gotenks
Caulifla
Bergamo
Future Trunks
Gohan
Lavender
Cabba
Basil
Kale
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Shisami
Trunks
Goten

Seems crazy but I think the humans surpassed base Goten and Trunks. The feats speak for themselves. Shisami seems to me that he trained and grew many times stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:03 am

Bullza wrote:He was? I've never seen that statement before though I never looked into the Perfect Files much.
Well to be more precise, it was Syn Shenron's bio that made that statement. Omega Shenron's bio states him to be exactly ten times stronger than Syn Shenron, so I guess the equivalent for Omega would be more along the lines of ten galaxies -- of course, that's still nowhere near universal-level if we take Elder Kai's statement into account.
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I'm still struggling to why SSB Vegito would be greater than Beerus and Champa. I feel like the anime would make a much bigger deal when a character surpasses Beerus. That's part of the reason I put SSB Vegito and Jiren below Beerus. I do agree that SSB Vegito is very close, as stated in the manga and hinted in the anime, but I still believe he is below.

Hmmm, interesting that you put Merged Zamasu so close to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. How come you think Toppo is stronger than him?
1. I've outlined most of my reasoning for Vegito Blue's placement here. Regardless of how they compare, I don't think anyone should be denying at this point that the two were meant to be incredibly close.

2. I have the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta more or less equal to their 100% Blue selves in the manga and I think there are several things to back that up. I believe it was Bullza who brought this to my attention originally, but the Vegeta that returned to the future to fight and overwhelm Black in the anime is the same Vegeta that learned to use 100% of Blue's strength in quick bursts to overwhelm Black in the manga; likewise, the Goku that was able to overwhelm and harm Fused Zamasu with a Kamehameha at "full power" (in Goku's own words) in the anime is the same Goku that was roughing him around with Blue's full strength in the manga. The only real difference between these mediums is that in Toyotaro's version, they've possessed this level of strength all along and couldn't tap into it because of Blue's enormous drawback, whereas in Toei's version they simply increased the form's strength via the "power of rage", matching its maximum output in the manga.

Fused Zamasu then powered up to become stronger than he was in the manga through his anime-exclusive "Half-Corrupted" form, which was further supported when he managed to put up a much better fight against Vegito in the anime. As for Toppo, he should be a bit closer to Blue Kaioken as his skirmish against Goku implied.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:13 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:how much SSB is stronger than SSG? It has never been talked about the multipliers of these forms and nor the level of their Power ups, just to discuss the strength level of the SSB transformation

In the manga, Goku SSG was stronger than Vegeta Blue with 10% of his power.
That is, the SSG has at least 10% of the strength of a SSB right?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

But in this case, would the increase in strength that the transformation give would not be small? Or are the calculations different?
Well, SSB being 10x stronger than SSG is a good baseline to start with, since those are the numbers we're working with right off the bat. It's also a thematically appropriate increase in power, since Toriyama did originally envision SS to be a 10x multiplier.

However, it does over-bloat Beerus's power even further if he's so much stronger than SSB that's so much stronger than SSG. Plus, SSB is SS with SSG's power, so it really shouldn't be so much more powerful in the first place. Then again, the difference between SSG and SSB is significant enough that Hit couldn't use the Time-Skip on Goku at all in the manga once he powered up to SSB from SSG when the assassin could managed to do so with SSG.

Thus, I'm of the belief that putting SSB at 2-5 times stronger than SSG is the best multiplication range, so as to make SSB's power significantly more than SSG's, yet also not over-bloat how strong it is in comparison and in turn characters stronger than this level, such as Beerus and the like.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:50 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:how much SSB is stronger than SSG? It has never been talked about the multipliers of these forms and nor the level of their Power ups, just to discuss the strength level of the SSB transformation

In the manga, Goku SSG was stronger than Vegeta Blue with 10% of his power.
That is, the SSG has at least 10% of the strength of a SSB right?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

But in this case, would the increase in strength that the transformation give would not be small? Or are the calculations different?
Well, SSB being 10x stronger than SSG is a good baseline to start with, since those are the numbers we're working with right off the bat. It's also a thematically appropriate increase in power, since Toriyama did originally envision SS to be a 10x multiplier.

However, it does over-bloat Beerus's power even further if he's so much stronger than SSB that's so much stronger than SSG. Plus, SSB is SS with SSG's power, so it really shouldn't be so much more powerful in the first place. Then again, the difference between SSG and SSB is significant enough that Hit couldn't use the Time-Skip on Goku at all in the manga once he powered up to SSB from SSG when the assassin could managed to do so with SSG.

Thus, I'm of the belief that putting SSB at 2-5 times stronger than SSG is the best multiplication range, so as to make SSB's power significantly more than SSG's, yet also not over-bloat how strong it is in comparison and in turn characters stronger than this level, such as Beerus and the like.
Yes, I think it would not be like this to be 10x stronger than SSG, it should be at least 2 and at most 5 or 6.

The only things we have as a base

-Goku SSG was stopped by Hitto's Time Skip (full power). However, Goku SSB "breaks" / completely nullifies the technique, being ineffective

-SSG has at least 10% of the power of the SSB

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:55 am

IIRC, SS Goku was stated to surpass Hit in power, making him stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. If anything, SSB's multiplier should be ~500x.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:16 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.

Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.

Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.
Beerus is not untouchable for mortals for a long time.

Maybe in the Battle Of Gods era and even in RoF, but not currently.
It seems absurd to some, but Goku, Vegeta, Hitto (anime), Golden Freeza, Toppo (even he is a candidate for God of Destruction) are much closer to the powers of a God of Destruction than we imagine.
In the episode 95 Frieza, that is strong as Goku ssjb, had to struggle to get a God of Destruction sphere off of him and Sidra ki blast was just a small portion of energy of destruction. Beerus just casually blows it off Goku like it was nothing. We have already see that Jiren wrecked Kale, that is not strong as Goku but is still SSJB level, like 17, Gohan, Frieza etc. And is not even confirmed that Jiren is the mortal that a God can't defeat and for now nothing suggest that is him (but even if is that mortal, i'm sure that is not far apart to them. Is not angel level lol).

In the manga Beerus is compared to Vegetto blue, far stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

SSJB tier characters are not close to the Gods, and i don't understand why people can't accept this, but whatever. :|

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:22 am

DBZ Macky wrote:IIRC, SS Goku was stated to surpass Hit in power, making him stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. If anything, SSB's multiplier should be ~500x.
Nah, that was a Hit that was holding back. On top of that, his Time-Skip still worked against Super Saiyan Goku even though we know for a fact that, in the manga at least, Time-Skip is rendered useless against opponents who are stronger than Hit; Beerus was probably accounting for all of Goku's transformations when he said that Goku was stronger.

As soon as Hit powered up to his true strength, everyone was amazed by his power and his Time-Skip was able to work again, making him more powerful than Super Saiyan God at maximum and somewhere between SS and SSG normally (most likely closer to SSG).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:16 am

Legion wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.

Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.

Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.
Beerus is not untouchable for mortals for a long time.

Maybe in the Battle Of Gods era and even in RoF, but not currently.
It seems absurd to some, but Goku, Vegeta, Hitto (anime), Golden Freeza, Toppo (even he is a candidate for God of Destruction) are much closer to the powers of a God of Destruction than we imagine.
In the episode 95 Frieza, that is strong as Goku ssjb, had to struggle to get a God of Destruction sphere off of him and Sidra ki blast was just a small portion of energy of destruction. Beerus just casually blows it off Goku like it was nothing. We have already see that Jiren wrecked Kale, that is not strong as Goku but is still SSJB level, like 17, Gohan, Frieza etc. And is not even confirmed that Jiren is the mortal that a God can't defeat and for now nothing suggest that is him (but even if is that mortal, i'm sure that is not far apart to them. Is not angel level lol).

In the manga Beerus is compared to Vegetto blue, far stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

SSJB tier characters are not close to the Gods, and i don't understand why people can't accept this, but whatever. :|
Freeza himself told Beerus that the sphere of destruction was no big deal.

He literally received the attack, contained and compressed the sphere, Annuling the coup
This is totally different from you counting it attacking from a distance, as Beerus did.

Even Freeza has destroyed two spheres with his laser at a distance. Receiving the attack directly is much more difficult.
Even Kaioshin Rou said that it would not be easy for Sidra to destroy Freeza

In fact, even Goku in the base form could resist. And it was made with intent to kill.

And we just do not know how much power Jiren used in that blow against Kale. Besides he has caught her off guard

In SBDH, this is your most powerful attack. Just because the size of the blow was small does not mean it was weak.
And Jiren can yes be the stronger mortal than a GoD, we do not know.

In fact, you who do not accept that Goku and Vegeta are much closer to the power of a GoD. It still has that idea of ​​superiority shown in BoG, when it is not so.
It has been stated several times that with SSB, they were able to face a GoD

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:20 am

If there is only one Base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and weaker than Super Saiyan God then how many fights does that make odd?

It fits fine with both Frieza fights, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Hit, Beerus and Copy Vegeta. No reason why it couldn't fit with his fights with Trunks, Black and Zamasu. It could fit with Bergamo it would just mean he was a lot stronger than his brothers (he was the strongest though so it could work).

It could also fit with people like Cabba, Caulifla and Magetta.

Is it just a problem when it comes to his fights with Frost, Gohan and Krillin and some troubles he had with the others in Universe 9?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:56 am

Bullza wrote:If there is only one Base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and weaker than Super Saiyan God then how many fights does that make odd?

It fits fine with both Frieza fights, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Hit, Beerus and Copy Vegeta. No reason why it couldn't fit with his fights with Trunks, Black and Zamasu. It could fit with Bergamo it would just mean he was a lot stronger than his brothers (he was the strongest though so it could work).

It could also fit with people like Cabba, Caulifla and Magetta.

Is it just a problem when it comes to his fights with Frost, Gohan and Krillin and some troubles he had with the others in Universe 9?
I don't think there a problem with Goku base form being that strong,I put him around ss3 Gotenks tiers,if that's too high put him at ss3
    It make sense since Goku constantly evolves because it doesn't make sense if his base form is below namek frieza and I don't see a problem with frost being that strong
      Let's just see if #18 fairs well against frost,if she gets owned by him,is a proof she below the base Saiyan and that means the base Saiyan are really strong or episode 101 will have the answer for this because I always see Krillin and her are relative to each other
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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by TheMikado » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:54 pm

      The gr wrote:
      Bullza wrote:If there is only one Base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and weaker than Super Saiyan God then how many fights does that make odd?

      It fits fine with both Frieza fights, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Hit, Beerus and Copy Vegeta. No reason why it couldn't fit with his fights with Trunks, Black and Zamasu. It could fit with Bergamo it would just mean he was a lot stronger than his brothers (he was the strongest though so it could work).

      It could also fit with people like Cabba, Caulifla and Magetta.

      Is it just a problem when it comes to his fights with Frost, Gohan and Krillin and some troubles he had with the others in Universe 9?
      I don't think there a problem with Goku base form being that strong,I put him around ss3 Gotenks tiers,if that's too high put him at ss3
        It make sense since Goku constantly evolves because it doesn't make sense if his base form is below namek frieza and I don't see a problem with frost being that strong
          Let's just see if #18 fairs well against frost,if she gets owned by him,is a proof she below the base Saiyan and that means the base Saiyan are really strong or episode 101 will have the answer for this because I always see Krillin and her are relative to each other
          The problem isn't those guys. The problem it would imply Piccolo is above SSJ3 level, Gohan in base is above SSJ3 level as well. Even master Roshi somehow got to SSJ3 level. So the problem isn't the universe 6 guys by themselves, but every other scenario where we see base or SSJ Goku fighting evenly with someone he should have long surpassed and literally be 1,000,000,000% stronger than. That's the problem.

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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by Bullza » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:07 pm

          Base Gohan at the start of Super I'm wondering if if were actually stronger than Buu. It's odd that Piccolo saw Beerus beat Buu instantly but was then shocked afterward when he saw Beerus beat Gohan so quickly too.

          Gohan also seemed to be above Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga so it's probably not that far off.

          With all the training he did it might explain why he was able to hold his own against Goku later on who was above Gotenks. Though Goku could have just been holding back against him.

          Piccolo is an odd one too but I'd put well below Super Saiyan 2 Goku based on the Ultimate Gohan fight.

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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:32 pm

          Bullza wrote:Base Gohan at the start of Super I'm wondering if if were actually stronger than Buu. It's odd that Piccolo saw Beerus beat Buu instantly but was then shocked afterward when he saw Beerus beat Gohan so quickly too.

          Gohan also seemed to be above Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga so it's probably not that far off.

          With all the training he did it might explain why he was able to hold his own against Goku later on who was above Gotenks. Though Goku could have just been holding back against him.

          Piccolo is an odd one too but I'd put well below Super Saiyan 2 Goku based on the Ultimate Gohan fight.
          I pointed out earlier that Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan in that first scene, potentially to tie into him being such in RoF. The rumour then goes that fans pointed out that he should've been Ultimate, and a change was made. I'm not sure if this rumour's true, but it's food for thought.

          If Gohan is indeed comparable or possibly superior to Piccolo in base form during RoF, his SS form being above Majin Buu makes perfect sense, even back in that "originally SS during BoG" rumour. It also gels with the fact that Gohan was warning SS Gotenks not to take on First Form Freeza, since him being comparable to or above Piccolo in base form would potentially put him on the same level as Gotenks in similar forms.

          As well, throughout Super, Goku has demonstrated that he just likes to fight evenly with others for the most part. He likes to nerf himself to get a good fight from his friends, and he's got good enough control over his Ki to do so.

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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:01 pm

          Simere wrote:
          TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
          You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.
          You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.
          James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

          Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by Simere » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:13 pm

          DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
          Simere wrote:
          TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
          You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.
          You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.
          TheMikado was asking specifically for times he got owned while holding back. I don't know about the movies because I haven't seen most of them, but I'm pretty sure it never happened in the series, including filler. I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison, though, since this fight against Kale was interrupted.

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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by emperior » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:24 pm

          DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
          Simere wrote:
          TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
          You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.
          You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.
          Goku didn't go all out against Nappa, Vegeta and Freezer (he was saving Kaio-Ken) and when he first fought Perfect Cell they both started out holding back. Goku also didn't go full power from the start against Yakon and he preferred to enjoy his fight with Vegeta as a SSJ2 instead of ending it quickly with SSJ3.
          I haven't had any problem with Goku holding back in Super, as he quickly went SSJ3 when fighting Beerus, then after a warm-up spar with Freezer he went Blue. In the U6 arc he saved stamina because he noticed Hit, then against him he went full power after figuring out his Tokitobashi. Also, Goku went Blue as soon as Black stabbed Vegeta.
          So in all the major fights Goku has never fucked around in Super. Though I don't quite get why he didn't knock out Kale (maybe he underestimated her power and resistance) but at least it was stated both Goku and Vegeta are trying to save stamina in the ToP.
          I don't think that Goku is acting all that differently in battle than before.
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          Bulma's Foot Masseur
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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:52 pm

          It's worth noting that if anyone could have had his power squandered by stupidity, it would be Gotenks. We know he hasn't been training and we know Goku didn't even want to bring him to the Tournament of Power, so is it really that unbelievable that a not-God-but-still-Whis-trained Vegeta/Goku would be stronger than Gotenks' SSJ3? It's not like the rest of the cast haven't become stronger/weaker with the flip of a switch.

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          PerhapsTheOtherOne
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          Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

          Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:44 pm

          Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:It's worth noting that if anyone could have had his power squandered by stupidity, it would be Gotenks. We know he hasn't been training and we know Goku didn't even want to bring him to the Tournament of Power, so is it really that unbelievable that a not-God-but-still-Whis-trained Vegeta/Goku would be stronger than Gotenks' SSJ3? It's not like the rest of the cast haven't become stronger/weaker with the flip of a switch.
          Not even that. Gotenks would just be an idiot in general and probably get wasted by the stronger characters who are clearly above Majin Buu because he's being such a brat.

          That, or waste the Fusion and then split back into Trunks and Goten, who would then easily be ringed out because they keep forgetting that Fusion runs out.

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