Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JulianStyles » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:12 am

Doctor. wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Krillin needed to use strategy against both base Goku and Gohan. And Goku only turned Super Saiyan so he wouldn't get pushed out, not because krillins blasts were a legitimate threat to him.
Goku wouldn't even need to turn Super Saiyan if Kuririn wasn't comparable to him. Kuririn's blasts wouldn't have the necessary power to even push Goku off if Goku was ridiculously stronger. Do you see Super Boo getting pushed back by Kuririn's blast? If the answer is no, then you're acknowledging Goku isn't that strong. If the answer is yes, then you're acknowledging Kuririn is comparable to Goku.
Same people who use this arguement also try to downgrade the Kikoho. Based on your reasoning you should have no qualms on saying Tien was comparable to 2nd form Cell. And dont head canon or make up something. The Kikoho is a pure Ki attack. Does not use life force which is a common mistake. Its like when Goku uses too much Kaioken or fires a powerful Kamehameha. Using so much energy at once can kill you. Like Vegetas suicide attack. Kikoho is destruction as said by Roshi and guide books. Was Vegeta comparible to Perfect Cell when the Final Flash tore off half his body? No!!! So pushing someone or even seriously injuring someone with a energy wave does not make you comparible.

Now to actually tell what happened. Krillin was no match for a base Gohan in hand to hand combat. Gohan wasnt full base power and underestimating Krillin. With Goku and Krillin. Goku made no effort to go on the offensive. Instead was testing Krillin on if he can actually land an attack. So pushing a base Goku who was already sliding from a previous attack is just momentum in a out of bounds setting. 18 was able to make 2nd form Cell slide with an attack many times. Was she comparable to 2nd form Cell? No.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:35 am

Why do people try and use Goku using Blue on Krillin to try and justify bad power scaling?
Everyone knows Goku was holding back. Gohan himself stated if Goku goes too far he will stop the fight.
Goku was fine in Super Saiyan mode, He then for NO REASON went Blue and then asked Krillin what is he going to do now.
So Goku has to to waste energy by going Blue on Krillin? Even 18 stated the difference in power is too great there is nothing Krillin can do.
That's why 18 intervened because the tournament of power uses teamwork no matter how strong one is!
It was all for krillins sake to help in preparation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:41 am

JulianStyles wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Krillin needed to use strategy against both base Goku and Gohan. And Goku only turned Super Saiyan so he wouldn't get pushed out, not because krillins blasts were a legitimate threat to him.
Goku wouldn't even need to turn Super Saiyan if Kuririn wasn't comparable to him. Kuririn's blasts wouldn't have the necessary power to even push Goku off if Goku was ridiculously stronger. Do you see Super Boo getting pushed back by Kuririn's blast? If the answer is no, then you're acknowledging Goku isn't that strong. If the answer is yes, then you're acknowledging Kuririn is comparable to Goku.
Same people who use this arguement also try to downgrade the Kikoho. Based on your reasoning you should have no qualms on saying Tien was comparable to 2nd form Cell. And dont head canon or make up something. The Kikoho is a pure Ki attack. Does not use life force which is a common mistake. Its like when Goku uses too much Kaioken or fires a powerful Kamehameha. Using so much energy at once can kill you. Like Vegetas suicide attack. Kikoho is destruction as said by Roshi and guide books. Was Vegeta comparible to Perfect Cell when the Final Flash tore off half his body? No!!! So pushing someone or even seriously injuring someone with a energy wave does not make you comparible.

Now to actually tell what happened. Krillin was no match for a base Gohan in hand to hand combat. Gohan wasnt full base power and underestimating Krillin. With Goku and Krillin. Goku made no effort to go on the offensive. Instead was testing Krillin on if he can actually land an attack. So pushing a base Goku who was already sliding from a previous attack is just momentum in a out of bounds setting. 18 was able to make 2nd form Cell slide with an attack many times. Was she comparable to 2nd form Cell? No.
With the Shin Kikoho? Yes, he's comparable. Tenshinhan himself isn't but Tenshinhan using the Shin Kikoho is. Not an entirely similar situation considering the Shin Kikoho is a named attack that very obviously anplifies your battle power while Kuririn was using generic, disposable Ki blasts.

And yes, Vegeta is absolutely comparable to Perfect Cell. You're misinterpreting what comparable means, it doesn't mean being equal, it just means being in the same realm of power. If Goku was ultimate Gohan level or something in base then he wouldn't even budge from one hit because of how much more powerful he is, he'd be thousands if not millions of times stronger.

I don't even know why you're arguing against this because acknowledging Kuririn's strength is only going to help in your arguments about how strong Tenshinhan is since the two are pretty much equals.
Miracles wrote:Why do people try and use Goku using Blue on Krillin to try and justify bad power scaling?
Absolutely nobody mentioned Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:49 am

Doctor. wrote:Absolutely nobody mentioned Blue.
Thanks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:57 am

Alrighty, here is my comprehensive list of all the characters in the Tournament of Power so far. I placed them into tiers (Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, SSGod, SSBlue, Above SSBlue Tier).

[spoiler]Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren (U11)
SSBlue Kaioken Goku (U7)
Toppo (U11)

SSBlue Tier
SSBlue Goku (U7)
SSBlue Vegeta (U7)
True Golden Frieza (U7)
Hit (U6)

SSGod Tier
SSGod Goku (U7)
Final Form Frieza (U7)
Dyspo (U11)
Kunsi (U11)

SS3 Tier
SSBerserker Kale (U6)
Ultimate Gohan (U7)
Android 17 (U7)
Brianne de Chateau/Ribrianne (U2)
SS3 Goku (U7)
Nink (U4)

SS2 Tier
Final Form Frost (U6)
Piccolo (U7)
SS2 Goku (U7)
SS2 Vegeta (U7)
SS2 Caulifla (U6)

SS1 Tier
Kahseral (U11)
SSBerserker Controlled Kale (U6)
SS1 Goku (U7)
SS1 Vegeta (U7)
SS1 Caulifla (U6)
SS1 Cabba (U6)
Obuni (U10)
Rubalt (U10)
Magetta (U6)
Bergamo (U9)
Lavender (U9)
Basil (U9)
Jilcol (U10)
Kettol (U11)
Zoiray (U11)
Napapa (U10)
Chappil (U9)
Comfrey (U9)
Hyssop (U9)
Oregano (U9)
Android 18 (U7)
Tupper (U11)
Cocotte (U11)

Base Tier
Base Goku (U7)
Base Vegeta (U7)
Base Gohan (U7)
Base Caulifla (U6)
Base Cabba (U6)
Su Roas/Rozie (U2)
Sanka Ku/Kakunsa (U2)
Vikal (U2)
Botamo (U6)
Krillin (U7)
Tien (U7)
Vuon (U11)
Murichim (U10)
Ganos (U4)
Jirasen (U10)
Majora (U4)
Shosa (U4)
Methiop (U10)
Nigrisshi (U3)
Narirama (U3)
Murisam (U10)
Master Roshi (U7)
Base Kale (U6)
Hop (U9)
Sorrel (U9)
Roselle (U9)
Jium (U10)
The Preecho (U3)
Lilibeu (U10)[/spoiler]

The only issues I had were with four characters. Dyspo and Kunsi are going to be revealed in Ep. 104, so this does not really count as a problem. I put them on the list just to be thorough, however. Nink from Universe 4 was the brute who bear-hugged Goku and almost carried him off the ring in the first episode of the tournament. I was unsure where to put him because of such little evidence. Goku turned SSBlue to get out of his grasp, but Goku has been using SSBlue on characters who should be around SS3. So I placed Nink around SS3 Goku for reference. The last person is Jilcol who was eliminated by Jimeze the Yardrat. I made a guess at where Jilcol is, but without any gauge on Jimeze it is only speculation. We will have to wait until Jimeze gets more fighting time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JulianStyles » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:15 am

Doctor. wrote:
JulianStyles wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Goku wouldn't even need to turn Super Saiyan if Kuririn wasn't comparable to him. Kuririn's blasts wouldn't have the necessary power to even push Goku off if Goku was ridiculously stronger. Do you see Super Boo getting pushed back by Kuririn's blast? If the answer is no, then you're acknowledging Goku isn't that strong. If the answer is yes, then you're acknowledging Kuririn is comparable to Goku.
Same people who use this arguement also try to downgrade the Kikoho. Based on your reasoning you should have no qualms on saying Tien was comparable to 2nd form Cell. And dont head canon or make up something. The Kikoho is a pure Ki attack. Does not use life force which is a common mistake. Its like when Goku uses too much Kaioken or fires a powerful Kamehameha. Using so much energy at once can kill you. Like Vegetas suicide attack. Kikoho is destruction as said by Roshi and guide books. Was Vegeta comparible to Perfect Cell when the Final Flash tore off half his body? No!!! So pushing someone or even seriously injuring someone with a energy wave does not make you comparible.

Now to actually tell what happened. Krillin was no match for a base Gohan in hand to hand combat. Gohan wasnt full base power and underestimating Krillin. With Goku and Krillin. Goku made no effort to go on the offensive. Instead was testing Krillin on if he can actually land an attack. So pushing a base Goku who was already sliding from a previous attack is just momentum in a out of bounds setting. 18 was able to make 2nd form Cell slide with an attack many times. Was she comparable to 2nd form Cell? No.
With the Shin Kikoho? Yes, he's comparable. Tenshinhan himself isn't but Tenshinhan using the Shin Kikoho is. Not an entirely similar situation considering the Shin Kikoho is a named attack that very obviously anplifies your battle power while Kuririn was using generic, disposable Ki blasts.

And yes, Vegeta is absolutely comparable to Perfect Cell. You're misinterpreting what comparable means, it doesn't mean being equal, it just means being in the same realm of power. If Goku was ultimate Gohan level or something in base then he wouldn't even budge from one hit because of how much more powerful he is, he'd be thousands if not millions of times stronger.

I don't even know why you're arguing against this because acknowledging Kuririn's strength is only going to help in your arguments about how strong Tenshinhan is since the two are pretty much equals.
Miracles wrote:Why do people try and use Goku using Blue on Krillin to try and justify bad power scaling?
Absolutely nobody mentioned Blue.
So we just have vastly different views of comparable. Vegeta couldnt land a hit and even when Perfect Cell let him land one it didnt even budge him. I do agree in order to inflict damage or push someone you must be in a certain percentage of them. Which is why I always found it stupid when people said the "Earthlings" were not in the millions by the time Android saga came around. Even Yamcha.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:57 am

A lot of people want to argue goku got nerfed, no he didn't base goku/vegeta/frieza just fall between dbz characters and god lvl characters. Writers at toie have said goku held back against the people he recruited and definitely didn't need to go ssb against any one.also you want to say frieza is ssg tier and goku isn't a match for him in base, yet don't want to acknowledge that as soon as frieza revived he punched goku and while frieza could have just not hit him that hard ( witch I doubt considering its frieza ) but goku punched frieza back in base and cause a lot of noticeable damage. So point is goku didn't get nerfed but held back when he needed to.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:07 am

brett wheeler wrote:A lot of people want to argue goku got nerfed, no he didn't base goku/vegeta/frieza just fall between dbz characters and god lvl characters. Writers at toie have said goku held back against the people he recruited and definitely didn't need to go ssb against any one.also you want to say frieza is ssg tier and goku isn't a match for him in base, yet don't want to acknowledge that as soon as frieza revived he punched goku and while frieza could have just not hit him that hard ( witch I doubt considering its frieza ) but goku punched frieza back in base and cause a lot of noticeable damage. So point is goku didn't get nerfed but held back when he needed to.
... Before making the post, I hope it occured to you that in the x hundreds pages that piled up since those recruitment episodes most of those who advocate the "nerf" you speak of may have also, well, remotely considered the other option.
With that being said, most of the people think it can't be the case and for what definitely amounts to good reason. Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight Super Saiyan Gohan -- which means Super Saiyan Gohan is at bare minimum intended to be above base Goku regardless of how much Goku is holding back. That Super Saiyan Gohan is also treated unequivocally as someone who's weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

You would want to subscribe to the theory that the gap between Gohan and Gotenks was supposed to be some hundreds of times - which is basically the only pseudo-viable way to circumvent the problem - and that the undertone is that Good Buu, Future Trunks and #18 also increased their power some dozens/ hundreds/ if not thousands of times even when not acknowledged by the narration, in which case base Goku sitting between SS3 Gotenks and Super Saiyan God can work.

Regarding Freeza and Goku punching each other, Freeza had no reason to kill Goku at all, and only sucker-punched him to hurt him a little. His act, like you yourself stated, was no different than pinching the cheek of someone you wanted to annoy. And if he lowered his power to hit Goku without seriously hurting him, which would put him around the exact strength of Goku, it actually makes more sense for Goku to hurt him back than whatnot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 am

Guys, Goku just does not work as a good measuring stick at all. Whether you subscribe to the two-base theory or the suppression theory, it's still a fact that his power fluctuates greatly.

-First Form Freeza is stronger than SS Gohan, so Final Form Freeza would be hundreds of times stronger.
-Gohan is only moderately stronger than his Buu arc self.
-Gotenks is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, but not by much.
-Piccolo is comparable to SS2 Gohan
-The Earthlings are comparable to the Base Saiyans.

It all makes sense until you bring Goku into the equation.
It's like GT all over again!
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:35 am

I think the biggest issue is that people are conflating performance with power.

That may have been the case in the old material, but with Super, especially now in the Tournament of Power? A fight's a fight. A fight doesn't care about power levels, it cares about how you fight, with or without said power levels.

Krillin did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tactics. Slim Buu did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tacics. Nink did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Tupper did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Notice that I said nothing about power levels, because in all these instances, power isn't being applied.

Have the rules been bent about what effects things have against other things? Yeah. There's no more "tanking hits" except at exceptionally high levels of power between fighters that specifically run on DBZ slugfests. Strategies and tactics can now circumvent power levels, like getting someone in a powerful hold where they can't move. Being able to track movement and read fighting styles allows different power levels of fighters to clash with each other because they're exchanging blows as martial artists.

And yeah, I also know that people are gonna point out my examples are flawed somehow, that the series should've predicated itself on these things sooner, that the old material not running on these rules means that the new material should've done so as well, that this is the "Strength Discussion Thread" and thus should be predicated on strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the biggest issue is that people are conflating performance with power.

That may have been the case in the old material, but with Super, especially now in the Tournament of Power? A fight's a fight. A fight doesn't care about power levels, it cares about how you fight, with or without said power levels.

Krillin did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tactics. Slim Buu did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tacics. Nink did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Tupper did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Notice that I said nothing about power levels, because in all these instances, power isn't being applied.

Have the rules been bent about what effects things have against other things? Yeah. There's no more "tanking hits" except at exceptionally high levels of power between fighters that specifically run on DBZ slugfests. Strategies and tactics can now circumvent power levels, like getting someone in a powerful hold where they can't move. Being able to track movement and read fighting styles allows different power levels of fighters to clash with each other because they're exchanging blows as martial artists.

And yeah, I also know that people are gonna point out my examples are flawed somehow, that the series should've predicated itself on these things sooner, that the old material not running on these rules means that the new material should've done so as well, that this is the "Strength Discussion Thread" and thus should be predicated on strength.
I actually agree with this post a lot. Strategy and unique techniques should be what the series uses to circumvent the power of a superior fighters in combat and I'm happy that they're doing that a bit in this tournament. My problem is when they don't use techniques or strategy to circumvent power differences. For example, I was actually fine with the Kuririn's fight up until Goku transformed SSB and they had a beam struggle. There was nothing strategic about that, it was just Kuririn going toe to toe with a SSB in a beam clash, and not doing too badly I might add. This is the kind of stuff that really bugs me and I hope Super avoids this kind of thing later down the line.

In this current episode we had Gohan having to use his wits and gamble on the most efficient way to take out a powerful opponent(who he was physically stronger than), who had a dangerous technique that made him a threat. I hope next episode delivers something similar with Hit vs the universe 11 fighters.

Another thing I would like to see more of, is varying attributes to different characters. Some characters should be weaker but specialize in speed, or others should be stronger, but also be a glass cannon. You can sort of see this in Goku's and Vegeta's base forms. While they aren't particularly powerful in their base form, they are super durable due to training at Beerus' place and surviving his full power blasts to the face(albeit barely). This is the basic stuff that I think would greatly improve the general writing and interest of the battles in the tournament(also making the episodes more focused would do it wonders as well).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: And yeah, I also know that people are gonna point out my examples are flawed somehow
Not all of your examples are flawed (one can reasonably justify the instance with Krillin as a strategy-based one) but the one with Tupper certainly is, in my opinion. I think it's obvious to anyone watching the scene that that particular encounter was just straight-up focused on brute strength because that's all it really was. Both Goku and 18 were unable to move away in time, the difference is that Goku just flat-out couldn't handle Tupper's weight whereas 18 easily could. The writers were clearly thinking about raw physical capabilities there; I don't think there's any way around that because it's the entire point of Tupper's weight ability.

Still, I think there's something to be said for Super's increased focus on tactics or ability match-ups or surprise attacks in a lot of these cases. For example, I strongly doubt that durability is much of a thing anymore like it was in DBZ unless it's a part of the character's own unique repertoire -- Sorbet could mortally wound base Goku simply because he had his guard down, and there are plenty of similar instances in Super where characters we wouldn't expect to be hurt or kicked around by vastly weaker ones end up going through those exact circumstances. That's not to take away from strength or slug-fests in the slightest because those aspects are quite obviously still a thing, but I'd agree with you that it's not the be-all and end-all that it seemingly once was.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:55 am

Is it just me, or does Super Saiyan not feel like much of power-up in Super? It's been confirmed that going Super Saiyan definitely times your ki ten's of times over as Zamasu noted, but it doesn't feel like their that much more powerful than their base forms.

Anyone want to chime in on that?
EDIT:
Marlowe89 wrote: Not all of your examples are flawed (one can reasonably justify the instance with Krillin as a strategy-based one) but the one with Tupper certainly is, in my opinion. I think it's obvious to anyone watching the scene that that particular encounter was just straight-up focused on brute strength because that's all it really was. Both Goku and 18 were unable to move away in time, the difference is that Goku just flat-out couldn't handle Tupper's weight whereas 18 easily could. The writers were clearly thinking about raw physical capabilities there; I don't think there's any way around that because it's the entire point of Tupper's weight ability.
To be far to Tupper, he did have Goku in a some kind of hold, so I guess that gives him some lee-way, but it's at best a weak excuse.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:43 am

The characters are that powerful now that the difference between Base and Super Saiyan isn't really all that notable anymore.

Maybe the fight with Bergamo showcased some of the difference though. He went from fighting evenly against Bergamo to making a complete fool of him as a Giant with all that power absorbed.

On a side note. If Goku went Super Saiyan for Jimizu does that mean he's pretty strong? Stronger than Sanka anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:44 pm

Bullza wrote:The characters are that powerful now that the difference between Base and Super Saiyan isn't really all that notable anymore.

Maybe the fight with Bergamo showcased some of the difference though. He went from fighting evenly against Bergamo to making a complete fool of him as a Giant with all that power absorbed.

On a side note. If Goku went Super Saiyan for Jimizu does that mean he's pretty strong? Stronger than Sanka anyway.
Or he used SSJ to attempt to catch Jimizu offguard? Instant transmission is a bit of a pain in the butt, and Yardrats were implied to use that technique better than Goku iirc..

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:02 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the biggest issue is that people are conflating performance with power.

That may have been the case in the old material, but with Super, especially now in the Tournament of Power? A fight's a fight. A fight doesn't care about power levels, it cares about how you fight, with or without said power levels.

Krillin did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tactics. Slim Buu did well against Goku because he's a good fighter that used strategy and tacics. Nink did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Tupper did well against Goku because he used a good strategy/tactic. Notice that I said nothing about power levels, because in all these instances, power isn't being applied.

Have the rules been bent about what effects things have against other things? Yeah. There's no more "tanking hits" except at exceptionally high levels of power between fighters that specifically run on DBZ slugfests. Strategies and tactics can now circumvent power levels, like getting someone in a powerful hold where they can't move. Being able to track movement and read fighting styles allows different power levels of fighters to clash with each other because they're exchanging blows as martial artists.

And yeah, I also know that people are gonna point out my examples are flawed somehow, that the series should've predicated itself on these things sooner, that the old material not running on these rules means that the new material should've done so as well, that this is the "Strength Discussion Thread" and thus should be predicated on strength.
I feel like the ability to no-sell attacks runs on something like pro wrestling logic. It fluctuates based on the rule of drama and the narrative's need to build a character. With villains it's basically outright plot armor.

Toei's always been a little more flexible with stuff like that in their original material. Piccolo couldn't do shit to Super Perfect Cell and got blown away by his aura, but he was briefly able to trade blows with Bojack who I believe was said to be stronger than Cell.

Then you have Pikkon in the Otherworld Tournament. He was able to basically one-shot the powered-up Cell who was already far stronger than Goku. Pikkon was way out of Goku's league in terms of raw power but Goku was able to rally and beat him in a tournament setting by using strategy to exploit a weakness in one of his techniques.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:50 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
brett wheeler wrote:A lot of people want to argue goku got nerfed, no he didn't base goku/vegeta/frieza just fall between dbz characters and god lvl characters. Writers at toie have said goku held back against the people he recruited and definitely didn't need to go ssb against any one.also you want to say frieza is ssg tier and goku isn't a match for him in base, yet don't want to acknowledge that as soon as frieza revived he punched goku and while frieza could have just not hit him that hard ( witch I doubt considering its frieza ) but goku punched frieza back in base and cause a lot of noticeable damage. So point is goku didn't get nerfed but held back when he needed to.
... Before making the post, I hope it occured to you that in the x hundreds pages that piled up since those recruitment episodes most of those who advocate the "nerf" you speak of may have also, well, remotely considered the other option.
With that being said, most of the people think it can't be the case and for what definitely amounts to good reason. Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight Super Saiyan Gohan -- which means Super Saiyan Gohan is at bare minimum intended to be above base Goku regardless of how much Goku is holding back. That Super Saiyan Gohan is also treated unequivocally as someone who's weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

You would want to subscribe to the theory that the gap between Gohan and Gotenks was supposed to be some hundreds of times - which is basically the only pseudo-viable way to circumvent the problem - and that the undertone is that Good Buu, Future Trunks and #18 also increased their power some dozens/ hundreds/ if not thousands of times even when not acknowledged by the narration, in which case base Goku sitting between SS3 Gotenks and Super Saiyan God can work.

Regarding Freeza and Goku punching each other, Freeza had no reason to kill Goku at all, and only sucker-punched him to hurt him a little. His act, like you yourself stated, was no different than pinching the cheek of someone you wanted to annoy. And if he lowered his power to hit Goku without seriously hurting him, which would put him around the exact strength of Goku, it actually makes more sense for Goku to hurt him back than whatnot.
I know a lot of people will accept the possibility of the other, I am also aware that super is verry complicated, but goku and vegeta have also seen to be strong enough to handle most if not all of dbz in base alone. Well the only excuse I can muster for that ssj gohan vs ssj goku thing was goku held back for fun in that little spat ( tioe is stupid from time to time so I took it with a grain of salt),the last thing I want to say is base goku later took on buu after the acknowledgement that buu had trained and got stronger and goku seems capable of taking him on in base and was only cought off guard by buu's sneak attack.

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supersaiyangodgogeta
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:16 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:If we are going to play this game then yes trunks was wrong since Gohan was more than a bit stronger than super boo as shown.

The difference is that Gotenks getting weaker isn't implied anywhere while the ssj forms have stated multipliers, so ultimate Gohan being stronger than a power that was over 100x stronger than Gotenks makes him over 100x stronger than Gotenks. This is common sense. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Was this toriyamas intention? Probably not though it can't be proved either way. This is what super did though so it is what is is regardless of how you feel.
So your train-of-thought is: "one isn't said, the other isn't as well, but one makes more sense than the other because it's common sense and that's what it is". I'll wait for a more persuasive reply (not like you could realistically come up with any better).
Neither is stated but one is shown. Gohan doesn't need to be stated to be 100x stronger than Gotenks when feats show him to be since he was greater than a power 100x stronger than Gotenks. Gokus Kamehameha wasn't stated to have done nothing to kale but according to you since it isn't stated, claiming that the Kamehameha did nothing is baseless.

Though playing by your little game of nonsense, trunks saying "a little" wouldn't discredit gohans superiority just like beerus referring to ssj as a slight power boost doesn't change the fact that it's multiplier is 50.

No there isn't any contradiction between trunk's statement and what super showed. Maybe that's just how trunks defines "a little". Though the fact that this is being contested is pure desperation on your part since you admitted that the context of trunk's statement is him downplaying Gohan. Yet here you are spewing nonsense.

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RandomGuy96
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:16 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It's a problem because Kuririn and 18 are shown to be comparable to base Goku. If Goku's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, then so are they. And if Kuririn is, so are Tenshinhan and Roshi as well.
Yeah, this is a big problem.

Gohan is also comparable to base Goku but at the same time weaker than his Boo arc self.
What.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Doctor.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:25 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It's a problem because Kuririn and 18 are shown to be comparable to base Goku. If Goku's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, then so are they. And if Kuririn is, so are Tenshinhan and Roshi as well.
Yeah, this is a big problem.

Gohan is also comparable to base Goku but at the same time weaker than his Boo arc self.
What.
Piccolo specifically states Gohan is still weaker than he was during the Boo arc. That can't be possible if Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks or else Gohan would already be as strong as his Boo arc self in base, let alone in SS1 or 2.

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