Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, this is a big problem.

Gohan is also comparable to base Goku but at the same time weaker than his Boo arc self.

What.

Piccolo specifically states Gohan is still weaker than he was during the Boo arc. That can't be possible if Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks or else Gohan would already be as strong as his Boo arc self in base, let alone in SS1 or 2.

You're talking about before he got Ultimate back?

[Doctor.]

What.

Piccolo specifically states Gohan is still weaker than he was during the Boo arc. That can't be possible if Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks or else Gohan would already be as strong as his Boo arc self in base, let alone in SS1 or 2.

You're talking about before he got Ultimate back?

Yeah, Piccolo mentions it when Gohan's training to get the form back.

[LowRyder2005]

If we are going to play this game then yes trunks was wrong since Gohan was more than a bit stronger than super boo as shown.

The difference is that Gotenks getting weaker isn't implied anywhere while the ssj forms have stated multipliers, so ultimate Gohan being stronger than a power that was over 100x stronger than Gotenks makes him over 100x stronger than Gotenks. This is common sense. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Was this toriyamas intention? Probably not though it can't be proved either way. This is what super did though so it is what is is regardless of how you feel.

So your train-of-thought is: "one isn't said, the other isn't as well, but one makes more sense than the other because it's common sense and that's what it is". I'll wait for a more persuasive reply (not like you could realistically come up with any better).

Neither is stated but one is shown. Gohan doesn't need to be stated to be 100x stronger than Gotenks when feats show him to be since he was greater than a power 100x stronger than Gotenks. Gokus Kamehameha wasn't stated to have done nothing to kale but according to you since it isn't stated, claiming that the Kamehameha did nothing is baseless.

Though playing by your little game of nonsense, trunks saying "a little" wouldn't discredit gohans superiority just like beerus referring to ssj as a slight power boost doesn't change the fact that it's multiplier is 50.

No there isn't any contradiction between trunk's statement and what super showed. Maybe that's just how trunks defines "a little". Though the fact that this is being contested is pure desperation on your part since you admitted that the context of trunk's statement is him downplaying Gohan. Yet here you are spewing nonsense.

You said "one is shown"; no, you're twisting it. What is shown is something that made you reach the conclusion: you saw base Vegeta owning Gotenks and concluded that Gohan must be that much stronger.
Also, re-read the bold, since it proves my point: unless you can prove unarguably what Trunks meant or that my interpretation of "a little" is wrong without resorting to circular logic your argument is void. Let's put it in layman's terms... so that, if anything, everyone else understand what exactly is your position and how mind-gobblingly pretentious your stance is:

"Two-base theorist" reasoning:
1. Trunks states Gohan is a little stronger. I'll quantify a little as 50% stronger (comment: "this is what I think").
2. There are two bases with vastly varying levels of strength (comment: "this is what I think").
3. Piecing this, authorial intent and such, I feel like like these bases, while unaddressed, could reasonably fit in-universe and should be the most viable route when trying to make everything fit. (Out-of-universe, I'll say the writers simply changed their ideas).

Alternative reasoning:
2. Gotenks got horribly weaker because of reason X.

Your reasoning:
1. Trunks states Gohan is a little stronger. "A little" is 10,000% stronger because Trunks is a kid and can't be taken seriously ("this is the only logical deduction") even though this isn't shown (look at the double standards: Trunks being that off the mark isn't shown, and no reader would really think 10,000 constitutes stronger; Gotenks being weaker, which could be deduced isn't shown, but to you it's an impossibility).
2. There is only base because it's common sense. I can't really prove it, but it should be obvious.
3. Gohan is 100 times stronger because Trunks is wrong (circular reasoning). I can't prove this either without relying on 2, "it's common sense".

Besides, note that your argument "Gohan was stronger in the Buu arc" and "Gotenks was weaker in the Potafeau arc" are completely symmetric and rely on the exact same premises -- if anything, one could very easily argue your stance is the one that fits less in the story, as Trunks' statement of Gohan being somewhat stronger already does without theorizing or brutally retconning Trunks is misleading the reader on what is Gohan's true strength so much. I use "mislead" since that's really what you're indirectly claiming: a hundred times stronger is around the same gap between a Saibaman and Ginyu, cannon fodder and the second strongest in the universe at the time of early Namek Arc; notwithstanding that a more realistical estimation following your argument would fall in line more with "a thousand", or Freeza's second form than a "hundred", for reasons I'll explain later. This alone should suffice for your "common sense" argument, or lack thereof, really.

Other than that, the main problem, I mean *your* problem, is that you really don't understand that your deductions rely on a good deal of extrapolation as much as anyone else's (more than the "acceptable minimum", that usually leads people to accept common premises).
By the way, know that I'll report your post. Maybe if a moderator can give you a heads-up on how to discuss (or at least, what's considered a good way to discuss things) as well you'll start to reflect instead of going defensive; point is, other than being biased - which is normal, we all are to a degree - you seem to be quite below the minimum standards on the etiquette of discussion along with some self-criticism and your position/ attitude/ relentless appeals to self-purported authority on what "can be" and what "can't be" are quite obviously destined to derail many more discussions than create meaningful ones.

Though playing by your little game of nonsense, trunks saying "a little" wouldn't discredit gohans superiority just like beerus referring to ssj as a slight power boost doesn't change the fact that it's multiplier is 50.

You're just distorting the argument that stands in your way. We have guides that clarify what the SS is supposed to be and that should reasonably be the primary source over Beerus' words, no guide's even remotely referencing the fact of Gohan being some hundreds of times above Gotenks.
But I'd like to go more in detail with your argument, your idea is:

Super Buu: 10
Gotenks SS3: 10
Base Gohan: 20
Ultimate Gohan: 10,000 (Ultimate is also stated to give a higher power-up than SS3 by the "Son Goku Densetsu", so I made it *500)
Gotenks-Buu: 15,000
Gohan-Buu: 20,000 (although, he does absorb one who's over 1,000 times stronger... so it should be a 20,00,000 maybe? For convenience's sake, I'll keep it abnormally low, since Buu also doesn't act as if absorbing Gohan gave him that much extra power)

And yet Gohan was pretty much implied plot-wise to be a chump who couldn't beat Fat Buu after the Z-sword training: how can his base be above that? Did the Elder Kai unlock also upgraded his base? Because *that* also isn't explicitily stated. Goku also comments on Gohan's power only after he turns Ultimate: wouldn't his base form already warrant some "oh my"? Nothing that really makes the argument crumble, per se, but I wouldn't exactly advocate for your theory to flow nearly as smoothly as you're claiming either.
Again, I'm pretty sure that if I looked hard enough into the wealth of guide-book related material at our disposal, or even the manga, the idea that Gohan could be a thousand times stronger than Gotenks would still fall apart pretty quickly.

Gokus Kamehameha wasn't stated to have done nothing to kale but according to you since it isn't stated, claiming that the Kamehameha did nothing is baseless.

I'd feel like the visual feat would take precedence over the theory, but yeah, I wouldn't exactly demote any reasoning like that as "impossible". At most it'd be something that I don't feel has any particular merit as a premise of any reasoning. I wouldn't really barge in a random discussion going all ballistic on "wow, nonsense" -- which is really all you've done here.
Oh, by the way, any type of "discussion" is always destined to rely on some shared premises. If one wanted to argue that Kamehameha created, dunno, some internal hemorrhaging I'd think it's baseless at the moment for many different reasons (mostly out-of-universe ones) but I wouldn't say - nor I would be able to say with the necessary authory - it's 100% impossible. Google what a "devil's proof" is. The difference is just there, and it's a rather big one.

[Saturnine]

Come on guys, it was very heavily hinted that before Gohan re-unlocked his ultimate state, he was only about as strong as he was post Z-sword training in base. Which is to say stronger than base Goku from the Buu arc, but not strong enough as an SSj2 to beat Fat Buu. Trying to reconcile Gohan's strength with Goku's "beyond God" strength not only feels wrong, but is factually wrong, given that per Piccolo, Gohan only fully reacquired his former power when he got Ultimate back, and SBG should be leagues, leagues beyond that. Instead, Goku required SSj2 to go toe to toe with Gohan, which better shows his growth since the Buu arc.

There is no in-universe explanation for the writers of the Potaufeu arc for going with SBG again. Perhaps they didn't get the memo, perhaps they were not under supervision. The bigger scheme quite clearly appears to be the abandonment of SBG. The reintroduction of SSj God proper only seals this.

[LowRyder2005]

Come on guys, it was very heavily hinted that before Gohan re-unlocked his ultimate state, he was only about as strong as he was post Z-sword training in base. Which is to say stronger than base Goku from the Buu arc, but not strong enough as an SSj2 to beat Fat Buu. Trying to reconcile Gohan's strength with Goku's "beyond God" strength not only feels wrong, but is factually wrong, given that per Piccolo, Gohan only fully reacquired his former power when he got Ultimate back, and SBG should be leagues, leagues beyond that. Instead, Goku required SSj2 to go toe to toe with Gohan, which better shows his growth since the Buu arc.

There is no in-universe explanation for the writers of the Potaufeu arc for going with SBG again. Perhaps they didn't get the memo, perhaps they were not under supervision. The bigger scheme quite clearly appears to be the abandonment of SBG. The reintroduction of SSj God proper only seals this.

Well, for the matter, you've made me remember that Trunks also heavily implies that Gohan is overall inferior to his Cell Game incarnation and Gohan hasn't been shown doing any worthwhile training - or better yet, any training at all - up until he spars with Goku (getting only reprimanded for lack of heart, at best).
Which pretty much reiterates that very commonly accepted notion that his post-Z sword/ Elder Kai and his Cell Game self should be comparable (and not with some ridiculous gap like a *400 between them, which Gohan somehow overcame with unmentioned push-ups and plenty of juice in those handful of days that separate his training session with Goku).

[spoiler](Let's not even mention the notion of #18's using Krillin's weight machines for a week and multiplying her power some dozens of thousands of times, also; aye, send her in the ROSAT for ten minutes and let her handle Super Buu and Beerus).[/spoiler]

This idea that the Gotenks' might was intended to be a Saibaman to Gohan's Freeza-like strength, again, looks pretty darn distorted even on a surface level to me.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, alright. Case in point for yet another argument against the "base Gohan (Buu arc) > base Gohan (Super) > SS3 Gotenks (Buu arc)" theory: original manga (unsurprisingly, didn't even need to go that far). Gohan is panicking because Goten and Trunks are about to be killed and needs to be told how to turn Ultimate. He should be perfectly able to feel his base power and yet not even once does he or anyone else think/make a case that he can beat Super Buu with his Base/ Super Saiyan/ Super Saiyan 2 - which multiplies his power several tens of times, by the way - even though he's in a hurry to help the kids as soon as possible. Premise: every character thinks SS3 Gotenks can or should be able to kill Super Buu.

If Gohan's regular base power is not enough to defeat Buu, his Super Saiyan 2 is weaker than SS3 Gotenks, who's seen as someone who has enough power by everyone else. Ergo, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Buu Arc is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in Super, which means base Gohan is far below Gotenks. A Super Saiyan Gohan, who's weaker than Gotenks, is superior to the base Goku who'd own SS3 Gotenks in Super.

... Eh, stating the obvious much? Pretty quizzical that we have to go back to re-evaluate where Gohan and Gotenks stood? Be my guest.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the biggest problem is people assuming that SS Gohan before being retrained by Piccolo is stronger than base Goku in the first place, based solely a spar between the two when Goku was getting bored, whilst Gohan is all Great Saiyaman and everything. Them getting into it doesn't mean anything, it just means they got carried away with their fight. If people are allowed to say that Goku sparring with Slim Buu was non-serious and not a good power scaling indication, then the same could be said of the instance of SS Gohan fighting SS Goku. Literally the very next episode, Goku expresses disappointment for not being allowed to turn SS against Krillin.

[LowRyder2005]

I think the biggest problem is people assuming that SS Gohan before being retrained by Piccolo is stronger than base Goku in the first place, based solely a spar between the two when Goku was getting bored, whilst Gohan is all Great Saiyaman and everything. Them getting into it doesn't mean anything, it just means they got carried away with their fight. If people are allowed to say that Goku sparring with Slim Buu was non-serious and not a good power scaling indication, then the same could be said of the instance of SS Gohan fighting SS Goku. Literally the very next episode, Goku expresses disappointment for not being allowed to turn SS against Krillin.

They assume it, pretty much naturally, for what's a good reason: the other theory, per se, is stating that base Goku (100) first powers up to Super Saiyan (5000) and then powers down to a level far below that matches Super Saiyan Gohan (1). It doesn't apply to any other case in the series I can think of so far -- bar SS/SSB vs. Krillin, but in the same episode Krillin can't scratch base Gohan, so most will be lead to think there should be something else than just strength at work there. I feel like at most it creates a precedent for SS Gohan vs. SS Goku, for which there's no other evidence Goku did anything of the sort.
First and foremost, is it less counter-intuitive than a thesis that argues for Goku to have a base in-between SS3 and God to begin with, at this point, when the thing is also technically, not 100% ignored in the lore (i.e. Heroes)?

I remember your stance of "suppressed base Goku turns into suppressed Super Saiyan", but I still have a hard time seeing it as anything different. He could go from suppressed (0.01) to a less suppressed base (1) less energy-sappy, less effort, etc.

Of course, we can also say Goku is silly and whatnot and argue it applies only to that particular instance, but then we get out-of-universe: reasonably speaking, is that what's the scene is trying to convey? Would most people who write that thinking "oh, Goku turned Super Saiyan, but in broader terms that Super Saiyan seen here is weaker than his normal base form"? Why is that scene there if not to say "look, Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goku are super powerful and can go toe to toe"?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the biggest problem is people assuming that SS Gohan before being retrained by Piccolo is stronger than base Goku in the first place, based solely a spar between the two when Goku was getting bored, whilst Gohan is all Great Saiyaman and everything. Them getting into it doesn't mean anything, it just means they got carried away with their fight. If people are allowed to say that Goku sparring with Slim Buu was non-serious and not a good power scaling indication, then the same could be said of the instance of SS Gohan fighting SS Goku. Literally the very next episode, Goku expresses disappointment for not being allowed to turn SS against Krillin.

They assume it, pretty much naturally, for what's a good reason: the other theory, per se, is stating that base Goku (100) first powers up to Super Saiyan (5000) and then powers down to a level far below that matches Super Saiyan Gohan (1). What's the point? He went Super Saiyan for the cosmetical effect?
First and foremost, is it less counter-intuitive than a thesis that argues for Goku to have a base in-between SS3 and God to begin with, at this point, when the thing is also technically, not 100% ignored in the lore (i.e. Heroes)?

I remember your stance of "suppressed base Goku turns into suppressed Super Saiyan", but I still have a hard time seeing it as anything different. He could go from suppressed (0.01) to a less suppressed base (1) less energy-sappy, less effort, etc.

Of course, we can also say Goku is silly and whatnot and argue it applies only to that particular instance, but then we get out-of-universe: reasonably speaking, is that what's the scene is trying to convey? Would most people who write that thinking "oh, Goku turned Super Saiyan, but in broader terms that Super Saiyan seen here is weaker than his normal base form"? Why is that scene there if not to say "look, Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goku are super powerful and can go toe to toe"?

Well, as established with Krillin and many other training instances, he seems to just like turning SS to amp up his power. In fact, from a production standpoint, it can be even simpler: Goku decides to amp up this fight and turns Super Saiyan, and Gohan also turns Super Saiyan! Two Super Saiyans spar and get carried away doing so! Great action and spectacle!

As Goku's later fight with Krillin during the latter's recruitment shows, he seems to use SS to power up a lot of times, even when he doesn't need to. From a production standpoint, turning SS is a much more visually appealing and clear-cut indication of powering up than powering up in base form.

I understand this position of mine isn't the easiest to follow, but I'm simply trying to take everything as a whole and not apply power scaling to every single instance possible. I've been making sure to factor in the context of scenes, the characterizations, and the in-universe and out-of-universe mentalities. For example, I freely admit that the only clear-cut retcon we've had is that SS Goku isn't on the level of gods, an understandable retcon made since Battle of Gods. Everything else has been murky and hard to pinpoint.

[Noah]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

The average battle power is fluctuating and non-indicative of performance against each other, I'd say.

This is mainly because exchanging blows and getting hit no longer have the same rules under the old understanding of power levels in the prior material before Super and especially this particular arc. Nowadays, getting hit means your opponent just got a clean hit and could take you out, and exchanging blows means that your fighting styles and martial arts skills are comparable.

[JazzMazz]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

I would say that the average strength of a fighter in the tournament, is in the same range as SS or SS2 Goku in the Buu arc. This is based purely on Basil's performance against Buu, and how well he was doing at the beginning of the tournament against other fodder characters.

[brett wheeler]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

Around ssj3 goku from buu arc, but it is hard to tell goku and vegeta seem to be trying to conserve power and stamina by suppressing themselves same for toppo and many others while some fighters have been forced to give it there all already, so agian it varies either way I'm sure if base goku and vegeta went all out in base they would stomp most fighters without much problem a lot like frieza has been shown to be diong, hell goku and vegeta have seemed to be bored most fights that they didn't have to transform for so that's a pretty good indicator on how much they are holding back against these fighters to measure up and save stamina.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So your train-of-thought is: "one isn't said, the other isn't as well, but one makes more sense than the other because it's common sense and that's what it is". I'll wait for a more persuasive reply (not like you could realistically come up with any better).

Neither is stated but one is shown. Gohan doesn't need to be stated to be 100x stronger than Gotenks when feats show him to be since he was greater than a power 100x stronger than Gotenks. Gokus Kamehameha wasn't stated to have done nothing to kale but according to you since it isn't stated, claiming that the Kamehameha did nothing is baseless.

Though playing by your little game of nonsense, trunks saying "a little" wouldn't discredit gohans superiority just like beerus referring to ssj as a slight power boost doesn't change the fact that it's multiplier is 50.

No there isn't any contradiction between trunk's statement and what super showed. Maybe that's just how trunks defines "a little". Though the fact that this is being contested is pure desperation on your part since you admitted that the context of trunk's statement is him downplaying Gohan. Yet here you are spewing nonsense.

You said "one is shown"; no, you're twisting it. What is shown is something that made you reach the conclusion: you saw base Vegeta owning Gotenks and concluded that Gohan must be that much stronger.
Also, re-read the bold, since it proves my point: unless you can prove unarguably what Trunks meant or that my interpretation of "a little" is wrong without resorting to circular logic your argument is void. Let's put it in layman's terms... so that, if anything, everyone else understand what exactly is your position and how mind-gobblingly pretentious your stance is:

"Two-base theorist" reasoning:
1. Trunks states Gohan is a little stronger. I'll quantify a little as 50% stronger (comment: "this is what I think").
2. There are two bases with vastly varying levels of strength (comment: "this is what I think").
3. Piecing this, authorial intent and such, I feel like like these bases, while unaddressed, could reasonably fit in-universe and should be the most viable route when trying to make everything fit. (Out-of-universe, I'll say the writers simply changed their ideas).

Alternative reasoning:
2. Gotenks got horribly weaker because of reason X.

Your reasoning:
1. Trunks states Gohan is a little stronger. "A little" is 10,000% stronger because Trunks is a kid and can't be taken seriously ("this is the only logical deduction") even though this isn't shown (look at the double standards: Trunks being that off the mark isn't shown, and no reader would really think 10,000 constitutes stronger; Gotenks being weaker, which could be deduced isn't shown, but to you it's an impossibility).
2. There is only base because it's common sense. I can't really prove it, but it should be obvious.
3. Gohan is 100 times stronger because Trunks is wrong (circular reasoning). I can't prove this either without relying on 2, "it's common sense".

Besides, note that your argument "Gohan was stronger in the Buu arc" and "Gotenks was weaker in the Potafeau arc" are completely symmetric and rely on the exact same premises -- if anything, one could very easily argue your stance is the one that fits less in the story, as Trunks' statement of Gohan being somewhat stronger already does without theorizing or brutally retconning Trunks is misleading the reader on what is Gohan's true strength so much. I use "mislead" since that's really what you're indirectly claiming: a hundred times stronger is around the same gap between a Saibaman and Ginyu, cannon fodder and the second strongest in the universe at the time of early Namek Arc; notwithstanding that a more realistical estimation following your argument would fall in line more with "a thousand", or Freeza's second form than a "hundred", for reasons I'll explain later. This alone should suffice for your "common sense" argument, or lack thereof, really.

Other than that, the main problem, I mean *your* problem, is that you really don't understand that your deductions rely on a good deal of extrapolation as much as anyone else's (more than the "acceptable minimum", that usually leads people to accept common premises).
By the way, know that I'll report your post. Maybe if a moderator can give you a heads-up on how to discuss (or at least, what's considered a good way to discuss things) as well you'll start to reflect instead of going defensive; point is, other than being biased - which is normal, we all are to a degree - you seem to be quite below the minimum standards on the etiquette of discussion along with some self-criticism and your position/ attitude/ relentless appeals to self-purported authority on what "can be" and what "can't be" are quite obviously destined to derail many more discussions than create meaningful ones.

Though playing by your little game of nonsense, trunks saying "a little" wouldn't discredit gohans superiority just like beerus referring to ssj as a slight power boost doesn't change the fact that it's multiplier is 50.

You're just distorting the argument that stands in your way. We have guides that clarify what the SS is supposed to be and that should reasonably be the primary source over Beerus' words, no guide's even remotely referencing the fact of Gohan being some hundreds of times above Gotenks.
But I'd like to go more in detail with your argument, your idea is:

Super Buu: 10
Gotenks SS3: 10
Base Gohan: 20
Ultimate Gohan: 10,000 (Ultimate is also stated to give a higher power-up than SS3 by the "Son Goku Densetsu", so I made it *500)
Gotenks-Buu: 15,000
Gohan-Buu: 20,000 (although, he does absorb one who's over 1,000 times stronger... so it should be a 20,00,000 maybe? For convenience's sake, I'll keep it abnormally low, since Buu also doesn't act as if absorbing Gohan gave him that much extra power)

And yet Gohan was pretty much implied plot-wise to be a chump who couldn't beat Fat Buu after the Z-sword training: how can his base be above that? Did the Elder Kai unlock also upgraded his base? Because *that* also isn't explicitily stated. Goku also comments on Gohan's power only after he turns Ultimate: wouldn't his base form already warrant some "oh my"? Nothing that really makes the argument crumble, per se, but I wouldn't exactly advocate for your theory to flow nearly as smoothly as you're claiming either.
Again, I'm pretty sure that if I looked hard enough into the wealth of guide-book related material at our disposal, or even the manga, the idea that Gohan could be a thousand times stronger than Gotenks would still fall apart pretty quickly.

Gokus Kamehameha wasn't stated to have done nothing to kale but according to you since it isn't stated, claiming that the Kamehameha did nothing is baseless.

I'd feel like the visual feat would take precedence over the theory, but yeah, I wouldn't exactly demote any reasoning like that as "impossible". At most it'd be something that I don't feel has any particular merit as a premise of any reasoning. I wouldn't really barge in a random discussion going all ballistic on "wow, nonsense" -- which is really all you've done here.
Oh, by the way, any type of "discussion" is always destined to rely on some shared premises. If one wanted to argue that Kamehameha created, dunno, some internal hemorrhaging I'd think it's baseless at the moment for many different reasons (mostly out-of-universe ones) but I wouldn't say - nor I would be able to say with the necessary authory - it's 100% impossible. Google what a "devil's proof" is. The difference is just there, and it's a rather big one.

Why would I have to prove your interpretation wrong when you can't even prove it right?

You missed the point like always and distorted my argument exactly like you said I was supposedly doing. You can't prove the exact amount trunks means when he says "a little" so your argument is moot. Doesn't change the fact that super shows Gohan to be over 100x stronger than Gotenks since base Gohan is equal to base Goku whom is massively stronger than gotenks and ssj2 Gohan is still weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan. So no you can't keep bringing up what trunks said to disprove that.

Whether you think that's the intention is another story, a point that was never important to begin with nonetheless, but that's how it works out numerically.

When did I say anything about boo arc gohans base and ssj forms? Never. In super his base and ssj forms are much stronger than in the boo arc but still below his original power.

My claim of ultimate Gohan being over 100x stronger than Gotenks is based on him being shown to be that much stronger. The idea that Gotenks got weaker isn't even implied within the show itself. It's just something you brought up to make your version of the story fit. My argument doesn't "assume" that Gotenks didn't get weaker. Such a notion isn't even remotely hinted at or supported. Would be like if I claimed that raditz was beating up freeza in hell off screen and I challenged you to prove me wrong.

You destroyed your own argument. Just like beerus' statement doesn't change the fact that ssj is an established 50x boost, what you think trunks quantifies as "a little" means nothing in front of the "boo arc ultimate Gohan>ssj2 Gohan>ssj Gohan>base Gohan=base Goku>ssj3 Gotenks" chain shown in super.

[JazzMazz]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

Around ssj3 goku from buu arc, but it is hard to tell goku and vegeta seem to be trying to conserve power and stamina by suppressing themselves same for toppo and many others while some fighters have been forced to give it there all already, so agian it varies either way I'm sure if base goku and vegeta went all out in base they would stomp most fighters without much problem a lot like frieza has been shown to be diong, hell goku and vegeta have seemed to be bored most fights that they didn't have to transform for so that's a pretty good indicator on how much they are holding back against these fighters to measure up and save stamina.

I wouldn't say the average fighter is SS3, based on how Basil performed against fat Buu, who completely wrecked him like he did Vegeta and Gohan when he got serious. Since Basil was shown to be an average to an above average combatant, and his performance against Buu mirroring Majin Vegeta's and Gohans when they first fought him, it's safe to assume that the average fighter is at best SS level during the Buu arc.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm just going to quickly note that Buu directly states that he adds other powers to his, not that he multiplies his power whenever he absorbs someone.

[LowRyder2005]

**double, welp, looks like I can't delete it**

[LowRyder2005]

You missed the point like always and distorted my argument exactly like you said I was supposedly doing. You can't prove the exact amount trunks means when he says "a little" so your argument is moot.

Nope, your entire argument rests ultimately on what's "common sense" (and proving your interpretation is correct while the others are "nonsense", apparently), according to you. Arguably, no one in the world would ever think of a 10,000%/ 100,000% increase as "little" in a system of billions. This is not in-universe, this is out of it. You stated yourself that even you don't honestly think Toriyama envisioned such a gap, which is all really that needs to be said on your part.

Doesn't change the fact that super shows Gohan to be over 100x stronger than Gotenks since base Gohan is equal to base Goku whom is massively stronger than gotenks and ssj2 Gohan is still weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan. So no you can't keep bringing up what trunks said to disprove that.

Circular logic. Re-read above. You can't prove Trunks is wrong when he states "a little", nor that Gotenks didn't get weaker, nor that two bases do not exist. Hence your argument is as personal as anyone else's. You can keep repeating yourself like a broken record, I can keep pointing that out to you.

Whether you think that's the intention is another story, a point that was never important to begin with nonetheless, but that's how it works out numerically.

This only proves that your scope of analysis is quite limited and that you either:
A. Do not realize it or
B. Have a hard time admitting it sounds off even to you.

It's obvious it works out numerically if you remove every other possibility when disproving them logically by default. "Common sense" is not a valid argument in a debate. You're like Sherlock Holmes going in a murder case and instead of arguing for his signature "it's improbable but unless I disprove it it could be" you said "once you eliminate the impossible, what remains needs to fit my idea of commons sense, otherwise it's still impossible, DUH!!".

(Because your tone really is just that of an edgelord Sherlock Holmes in this particular context.)

If you follow what the majority here would label as "common sense", it's also much probably easier to think of a retcon than anything else. "Common sense" is what made people conclude that Gotenks and Gohan are not that far apart in the first place, that #18 didn't become stronger than base Goku off-screen and training with weight machines in a week, same goes for Piccolo, same goes for Buu, etc -- for a plethora of "in" and "out of universe" considerations.

When did I say anything about boo arc gohans base and ssj forms? Never. In super his base and ssj forms are much stronger than in the boo arc but still below his original power.

My claim of ultimate Gohan being over 100x stronger than Gotenks is based on him being shown to be that much stronger. The idea that Gotenks got weaker isn't even implied within the show itself. It's just something you brought up to make your version of the story fit. My argument doesn't "assume" that Gotenks didn't get weaker. Such a notion isn't even remotely hinted at or supported.

Just like beerus' statement doesn't change the fact that ssj is an established 50x boost, what you think trunks quantifies as "a little" means nothing in front of the "boo arc ultimate Gohan>ssj2 Gohan>ssj Gohan>base Gohan=base Goku>ssj3 Gotenks" chain shown in super.

To be honest, I would also start a "look dude, the Super Saiyan scale is actually a commonly accepted premise followed by me and 90% of the fanbase and not a fact, since it's never stated through word of God "those multipliers can't change", but let's leave it at that.
Given your very particular stance, I don't really understand how you'd be inclined to argue Base Gohan wouldn't already be superior to SS3 Gotenks following your own rationale. He's arguably portrayed as equal-ish to base Goku in Super and that base Goku is superior to SS3 Gotenks. Basically, you'd also need to argue that the hypothetical multiplier for the Ultimate form changed or prove that's it's a fixed power level, and - yet again - you're doing nothing different than going off unsubstantiated claims like whoever you're opposing.

Would be like if I claimed that raditz was beating up freeza in hell off screen and I challenged you to prove me wrong.

I can't, but you're taking my example to the extreme (see "false equivalence", this is basically turning into a lesson on how not not discuss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence). I already said most of the arguments rely on common premises, not on absolute truths. It's your idea of "common sense" that's strictly personal, since you can't logically prove, like, half of your claims. Also, I wouldn't go doing a recap of the entire 100 episodes for you, but there are many instances in which there's what most would define as "potential evidence in favor of the hypothesis". Therefore, no, your Raditz vs. Freeza example would be quite off the mark regardless.

Why would I have to prove your interpretation wrong when you can't even prove it right?

Holy crap, you're like a compendium of every "bad argument" you can use in a discussion between intelligent people. This is a standard "argument from ignorance". You need to prove my interpretation wrong if you want to eliminate it as possibility and you can't prove your stance as the one and only possibility -- which, the deeper we go, the clearer it becomes, since there are a lot of aporetic turns you take here and there when rationalizing things. Otherwise, most respectable people simply agree to disagree and move on; they again do not act nearly as bombastic as you are.

You destroyed your own argument.

Drivel. It's quite ironic you go all "you're desperate" and then all your posts are filled with "b-b-but, it's not nonsense!", "you destroyed your own argument!" and then you can't even conclude a post without what reeks of 4-chan-esque teen angst.

I'm just going to quickly note that Buu directly states that he adds other powers to his, not that he multiplies his power whenever he absorbs someone.

Oh, just wait for him to drop his "super literal is the one and only truth" persona and argue Buu is wrong because it's been already proven it's a multiplication.

[LowRyder2005]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

Around ssj3 goku from buu arc, but it is hard to tell goku and vegeta seem to be trying to conserve power and stamina by suppressing themselves same for toppo and many others while some fighters have been forced to give it there all already, so agian it varies either way I'm sure if base goku and vegeta went all out in base they would stomp most fighters without much problem a lot like frieza has been shown to be diong, hell goku and vegeta have seemed to be bored most fights that they didn't have to transform for so that's a pretty good indicator on how much they are holding back against these fighters to measure up and save stamina.

I wouldn't say the average fighter is SS3, based on how Basil performed against fat Buu, who completely wrecked him like he did Vegeta and Gohan when he got serious. Since Basil was shown to be an average to an above average combatant, and his performance against Buu mirroring Majin Vegeta's and Gohans when they first fought him, it's safe to assume that the average fighter is at best SS level during the Buu arc.

My average fighter is actually around SS3/ Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc, but, as averages usual go, it's not really a representative value. A better question would be "what's/ what are your median fighter(s)" (a.k.a. who you have in the middle of your scale) or "mode fighter" (which value is the most present).
I have the Trio de Danger around the base Saiyans, whom are around two and half times stronger than their Buu arc selves at their "regular" base levels, and scale that off accordingly. The lower point of my scale is Roshi -- who's still in the low thousands.

In short:
1. My average is SS3 Gotenks from the Buu arc.
2. My median, at a glance, is Magetta.
3. Around half of the fighters are less than a billion (which is the level of Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta and Magetta).
4. Jiren is the top dog, around (1.1 trillions, or 10^12), which at this point is just a conservative mostly feat-less esteem, and just comfortably above Super Saiyan Blue * 2 Goku and Toppo (#2 and #3 for now).

I'd be curious to hear the others'!

[brett wheeler]

If you guys could measure from what we saw until now from the tournament, what would be the average battle power of the contestants?

Around ssj3 goku from buu arc, but it is hard to tell goku and vegeta seem to be trying to conserve power and stamina by suppressing themselves same for toppo and many others while some fighters have been forced to give it there all already, so agian it varies either way I'm sure if base goku and vegeta went all out in base they would stomp most fighters without much problem a lot like frieza has been shown to be diong, hell goku and vegeta have seemed to be bored most fights that they didn't have to transform for so that's a pretty good indicator on how much they are holding back against these fighters to measure up and save stamina.

I wouldn't say the average fighter is SS3, based on how Basil performed against fat Buu, who completely wrecked him like he did Vegeta and Gohan when he got serious. Since Basil was shown to be an average to an above average combatant, and his performance against Buu mirroring Majin Vegeta's and Gohans when they first fought him, it's safe to assume that the average fighter is at best SS level during the Buu arc.

That's probably possible either way it seems most fighters are not threat in this tournament. Goku and vegeta seem to be bored against a lot of fighters in the tournament and if they didnt have to suppress themselves they would probably one shot a lot of these morons like nothing, much like frieza is doing right now where frieza easily took down a fighter that a suppressed toppo fought with