Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Next episode looks like it'll be another non-power-focused episode, this time involving Roshi's techniques and perversion training against the mighty and sexy Universe 4 warriors.

Puar, your efforts will be put to the ultimate test!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:52 pm

Which character is faster, Dyspo or Jiren? In episode 96 when Goku first meets Jiren, Jiren easily gets behind Goku without Goku even realizing what happened. Goku with Super Saiyan God and SSB was able to see the movements of Dyspo, unlike with Jiren. Tho Goku was in Base Form at the time he met Jiren, the same could possibly be said about Jiren, who most likely was not at full speed at the time he speed-blitzed Goku...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:06 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:So not even taking the Time-Skip into consideration, Hit is very much on par with SSJB Goku in the anime.
The problem is that you're extrapolating this conclusion from character reactions rather than what the dialogue was very clear in expressing. SSB Goku was flat-out winning against Hit with or without Time-Skip, and even after Hit "pretended" to power up, the characters specifically noted that he didn't actually power up; he just advanced the duration of his Time-Skip instead, which, once again, allowed him to fight on par with Kaioken Goku. They were constantly one-upping each other with Hit repeatedly increasing the limits of the Time-Skip ability and Goku repeatedly multiplying his strength/speed as a counter. That's it.

Therefore, Hit's level of strength at the end of the match was exactly the same as it was at the start, e.g. weaker than SSB Goku/Vegeta.
I've watched Episode 39 and 40 and Hit, with or without the Time-Skip, was a very formidable opponent and there isn't much about the dialogue that contradicts that notion. Yeah, Goku some offence but Hit was able to return the offence with his own when he improved his Time-Skip. I mean, if you want to include the important of dialogue, Goku comments that Hit couldn't have been able to go all out with the "no killing" and would have killed him the last Time-Skip technique he pulled on Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:15 pm

Liquir wrote:Which character is faster, Dyspo or Jiren? In episode 96 when Goku first meets Jiren, Jiren easily gets behind Goku without Goku even realizing what happened. Goku with Super Saiyan God and SSB was able to see the movements of Dyspo, unlike with Jiren. Tho Goku was in Base Form at the time he met Jiren, the same could possibly be said about Jiren, who most likely was not at full speed at the time he speed-blitzed Goku...
Dyspo was so fast Champa couldn't see his movements and Vados could barely see them herself. Goku wasn't able to see Dyspo's movements, he just predicted them because he moved in a linear way right before speeding up, this was stated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:28 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Yeah, Goku some offence but Hit was able to return the offence with his own when he improved his Time-Skip.
Yes, because Hit improved his Time-Skip.

For the record, I'm not arguing that Hit isn't a formidable opponent against SSB level characters -- only that his raw strength clearly wasn't a match for them whenever his Time-Skip wasn't factored into the equation, as the episode unequivocally demonstrates when his power was confirmed not to have increased since their first exchange where Goku was distinctly shown to be at an advantage.
Lord Beerus wrote:I mean, if you want to include the important of dialogue, Goku comments that Hit couldn't have been able to go all out with the "no killing"
Which is also present in the manga, so that doesn't exactly help your case.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:29 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Okay then, so why did Hit's Time-Skip work on Goku after he used SSB with Kaio-ken x10? And why is it SSB Vegeta did so poorly against Hit, when base Goku did so much better? The in-show explanation is that Goku predicted Hit's movements and countered them right before the Time-Skip could connect, so what's your excuse?

The subs have it say that Hit increased his Time-Skip even further beyond 0.5 seconds, and thus why he managed to land blows on Goku after he powered up with Kaio-ken.

If it was purely about power in the anime, Hit would've lost to Vegeta since SSB doesn't drain stamina like an out-of-shape fat guy running a sprint in the anime compared to the manga.
Hit's time skipped only worked on Blue Goku and Kaioken Blue Goku when he powered himself up more than Goku.
Hit's physical attacks didn't damage Goku Blue and base Goku was taking the same blows as Blue Vegeta but a Hit holding back damages Blue Vegeta?
Last edited by Miracles on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:38 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote: As of Episode 104, this is what I believe is the best course for action when it comes to the DBSuper anime.

Scenario A: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan God, then we say, "Oh, he was using all of the god power he absorbed."

Scenario B: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a very strong enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was using only part of the god power he absorbed, resulting in SBG."

Scenario C: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a weak enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was not using any of the god power he absorbed, only mortal ki."

Scenario D: If we see Goku using SS1/SS2/SS3 against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using his Super Saiyan forms stacked on top of his mortal Base."

Scenario E: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Super Saiyan stacked on top of his god power he absorbed."

Scenario F: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Kaioken stacked on top of his Super Saiyan with the god power he absorbed."

Considering the show has been inconsistent with some things, the only constant is that we have seen Scenarios A - F in the DBSuper anime. The instances of Scenario B and Scenario C are what confuses things. I believe with all the information from the show, this is the most logical, in-universe way to explain things. It streamlines the confusion, and allows for the show to represent instances of SSG, SBG, and Base appearing.
I guess I will go with this as well. I do wonder what are the multipliers for SbG, SSG and SSB now. We did get the confirmation in the manga that SSB >> SSG >> 10% SSB.

Maybe something like this could work:

SSB: 50
SSG: 25
SbG: 1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:15 am

If we were to take his Time Skip abilities away but he still got to keep things like his Pressure Point and Invisible Ki blast attacks then who wins these fights

1. U6 saga Hit vs RoF saga Golden Frieza

2. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the dagger

3. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the sword

4. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the scythe

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:19 am

Question: Why exactly in the manga did Blue's stamina issues drain Vegeta of 90% of his power but without him knowing? Was it because he stayed in the form too long or because he underwent the transformation too many times in a short period? Trying to figure out much we can reconcile Blue with the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:54 am

Bullza wrote:If we were to take his Time Skip abilities away but he still got to keep things like his Pressure Point and Invisible Ki blast attacks then who wins these fights

1. U6 saga Hit vs RoF saga Golden Frieza

2. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the dagger

3. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the sword

4. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the scythe
I would say anime Hit wins all those scenarios. Though he isn't as physically strong as any of those opponents, I think his abilities would more than be able to grant him a victory.

Also, Hit's time-skip only working on weaker opponents is an manga only thing. Hit doesn't need to be stronger for his time-skip to work in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:38 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Question: Why exactly in the manga did Blue's stamina issues drain Vegeta of 90% of his power but without him knowing? Was it because he stayed in the form too long or because he underwent the transformation too many times in a short period? Trying to figure out much we can reconcile Blue with the manga.
Vegeta was aware of the power drain. The power drain happened because he transformed for the 2nd time in a row during the tournament.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:57 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Question: Why exactly in the manga did Blue's stamina issues drain Vegeta of 90% of his power but without him knowing? Was it because he stayed in the form too long or because he underwent the transformation too many times in a short period? Trying to figure out much we can reconcile Blue with the manga.
Vegeta was aware of the power drain. The power drain happened because he transformed for the 2nd time in a row during the tournament.
But Goku transformed into SSJ Blue numerous times during the ToP. I think the reason why Vegeta lost power is because his body wasn't used to it at the time and now both him and Goku "mastered" SSJ Blue more. Thats just headcanon though trying to reconcile the differences.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:25 pm

gofishus wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Question: Why exactly in the manga did Blue's stamina issues drain Vegeta of 90% of his power but without him knowing? Was it because he stayed in the form too long or because he underwent the transformation too many times in a short period? Trying to figure out much we can reconcile Blue with the manga.
Vegeta was aware of the power drain. The power drain happened because he transformed for the 2nd time in a row during the tournament.
But Goku transformed into SSJ Blue numerous times during the ToP. I think the reason why Vegeta lost power is because his body wasn't used to it at the time and now both him and Goku "mastered" SSJ Blue more. Thats just headcanon though trying to reconcile the differences.
You are confusing the manga and the anime. Going Blue doesn't consume energy in the anime, but using it for prolonged times burns stamina.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:27 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Bullza wrote:If we were to take his Time Skip abilities away but he still got to keep things like his Pressure Point and Invisible Ki blast attacks then who wins these fights

1. U6 saga Hit vs RoF saga Golden Frieza

2. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the dagger

3. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the sword

4. Current Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black with the scythe
I would say anime Hit wins all those scenarios. Though he isn't as physically strong as any of those opponents, I think his abilities would more than be able to grant him a victory.

Also, Hit's time-skip only working on weaker opponents is an manga only thing. Hit doesn't need to be stronger for his time-skip to work in the anime.
I put the scale like this, power-wise:

1) True Golden Frieza
2) Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
3) Hit
4) Golden Frieza

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:28 pm

emperior wrote:
gofishus wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Vegeta was aware of the power drain. The power drain happened because he transformed for the 2nd time in a row during the tournament.
But Goku transformed into SSJ Blue numerous times during the ToP. I think the reason why Vegeta lost power is because his body wasn't used to it at the time and now both him and Goku "mastered" SSJ Blue more. Thats just headcanon though trying to reconcile the differences.
You are confusing the manga and the anime. Going Blue doesn't consume energy in the anime, but using it for prolonged times burns stamina.
So is it correct to say that Vegeta in U6 tournament - went blue twice and stayed in that form for too long -> loses 90% of power
Goku in ToP - went blue numerous times but for split second each time -> doesnt lose any power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:30 pm

gofishus wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Question: Why exactly in the manga did Blue's stamina issues drain Vegeta of 90% of his power but without him knowing? Was it because he stayed in the form too long or because he underwent the transformation too many times in a short period? Trying to figure out much we can reconcile Blue with the manga.
Vegeta was aware of the power drain. The power drain happened because he transformed for the 2nd time in a row during the tournament.
But Goku transformed into SSJ Blue numerous times during the ToP. I think the reason why Vegeta lost power is because his body wasn't used to it at the time and now both him and Goku "mastered" SSJ Blue more. Thats just headcanon though trying to reconcile the differences.
In the manga, before Goku and Vegeta master SSB, transforming multiple times without a buffer form or letting the form simmer reduces its full power. However, the same isn't true in the anime.

In the anime, sustaining the SSB form drains stamina, not as badly as something like SS3, but enough to warrant not using it except in short bursts or when they need to fight an opponent beyond any other forms they have in a serious fight. It never actually loses power like in the manga, as the anime never calls this into question when SSB Vegeta fights Hit and places the blame of his humiliating loss solely on Hit's Time-Skip.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JulianStyles » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:40 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Next episode looks like it'll be another non-power-focused episode, this time involving Roshi's techniques and perversion training against the mighty and sexy Universe 4 warriors.

Puar, your efforts will be put to the ultimate test!
I think we can establish after this episode that Roshi is not on base Gokus level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:50 am

JulianStyles wrote:I think we can establish after this episode that Roshi is not on base Gokus level.
According to Toshio he's probably below Tien and we all saw how much of a chump Base Gohan made Tien look.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JulianStyles » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:50 am

Bullza wrote:
JulianStyles wrote:I think we can establish after this episode that Roshi is not on base Gokus level.
According to Toshio he's probably below Tien and we all saw how much of a chump Base Gohan made Tien look.
That was a different base Gohan that powered up twice before he bang came out. But just as Beserk Roshi was badly written, episode 90 was just as badly written. Piccolo didnt do much instead of charging up. Base Goku tanked Piccolos most powerful attack. Yet Piccolo was seen on par with SS2 two episodes prior. And a few episodes before that we saw Goku and Gohan fight as SS1 and were even. So how was Base Goku able to tank Piccolos attack? Its just bad writing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:58 am

JulianStyles wrote:
Bullza wrote:
JulianStyles wrote:I think we can establish after this episode that Roshi is not on base Gokus level.
According to Toshio he's probably below Tien and we all saw how much of a chump Base Gohan made Tien look.
That was a different base Gohan that powered up twice before he bang came out. But just as Beserk Roshi was badly written, episode 90 was just as badly written. Piccolo didnt do much instead of charging up. Base Goku tanked Piccolos most powerful attack. Yet Piccolo was seen on par with SS2 two episodes prior. And a few episodes before that we saw Goku and Gohan fight as SS1 and were even. So how was Base Goku able to tank Piccolos attack? Its just bad writing.
Piccolo wanted to distract Goku so Gohan can finish him off. The attack would have killed Goku in base form if Piccolo wanted the attack to. It was only a training match.

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