Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:01 am

Lord Frieza wrote:Oh you guys a gonna love this...



I kind of thought it would be him, but this begs the question. Is the fighter stronger than a god on the universe 4 team? If he is it is either one of the bugs, the fat girl, or the little blue guy, and tbh I don't really want any of them to be the character stronger than a GoD.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:32 am

lord turbo wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:- It is entirely possible the writer of the Copy-Vegeta arc made a blunder and that neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro are designing the story to reflect base Goku > SS3 Vegeta, much like in the past Yamcha would beat up Olibu.


I disagree that its a blunder considering in the manga DBS manga base Black > SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga). The same Black as a SSJ got his ass beat silly by SSJ Vegeta therefore this would conclude base Vegeta > base Black making him by default more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Another point is that back during the Tarble special SSJ Goku outperformed SSJ Gotenks (Both manga and anime version) which would suggest SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. The Tarble special takes place two years after the Buu saga and two years before the BoGs arc, plenty of time for Goku to become stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before he meets Beerus. So far, it looks like the anime did no wrong with showing base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks since he already was in the manga.

LowRyder2005 wrote:narratively, if Tupper could block him it means that he could be weaker (Goku could restrain Raditz, after all) but the gap cannot be the one between a farmer and King Piccolo.


Ummm...You're neglecting important information here, Raditz was critically injured by angry Gohan caving his chest in making him weak enough were a severely injured and beaten Goku could restrain and hold him in place against his will, before that Raditz godstomp the hell out of Goku with the utmost of ease will holding back by his own admission. When the gap is as large as Raditz vs. Goku & Piccolo or Kaioken Goku vs Nappa a weaker character ain't restraining anything.

As for where does 18 fit in all of this, out of all her showings she kicked away SSJB Goku's Kamehameha, tossed the Tupper guy that gave base Goku issues, and physically moved Cocotte's barrier with her bare hands, the same barrier that couldn't be budge slightly by LSSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla's combined X-mas blast that broke the other barrier and ringed out the other pride troopers this is important since LSSJ Kale earlier manhandled SSJ2 Goku like he was a newborn infant and walked through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha like morning breeze (Keep in mind Goku could have went SSJG, but felt SSJB was more appropriate) then I think its safe to say that so far 18's been giving a massive buff far behind the like of a mere namekian (Piccolo).


I don't see how Vegeta or anything about Black from the manga is even remotely related to Copy-Vegeta. Vegeta's SS2 - because he is a "SS2" - who previously was stated to be above Goku's SS3 defeats Black (who's either SS or SS2). I have also many reserves about Black following the regular multipliers. And Black himself also implies that he still might not control SS2 like he wanted to. Ultimately, though, I also think that SS Trunks vs. base Black in the beginning is probably the odd man out that needs to be discarded, as everything makes perfect sense otherwise; my two cents are that SS2 Vegeta is at best two times stronger than the initial SS2 Black, who's somewhat stronger than SS3 Goku. In the beginning, Trunks was simply battered because he had battled SS2 Black (that's why Vegeta references only SS2 Black as the one Trunks couldn't defeat), and his Super Saiyan was barely enough to scratch base Black because Black was uninjured. And there you go: all's good.

This also fits very well before the fight. The clearest means of comparison is Trunks being described as someone as stronger than Gohan with some mild surprise on Goku's part, which I read as Trunks and Goku still being scalable from their manga selves (otherwise it would make more sense for Goku to say Trunks was simply incredible, that Buu would've been a piece of cake; you don't say "you're stronger than an ant" to describe a gym-goer unless there's some irony). And that Trunks is at best equal to Goku, who's not implied to fall anywhere near Gotenks in base form in the manga.

There's also absolutely nothing clear-cut about Gotenks vs. Goku in the special if not for the fact they're both above the foe (SS Gotenks can injure or probably even kill Abokado with a punch, while SS Goku beats Abokado's Wahaha with a Kamehemeha), assuming it's canonical.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:09 am

So Jiren isn'tthe mortal who even a God of Destruction can't beat?

If Quitela is the who one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling then shouldn't that mortal be on the Universe 4 Team?

If that was actually the case then it'd have to be Damom. Are they hiding him for a particular reason? There isn't gonna be some plot twist where Damom is gonna end up the big bad instead of Jiren is there?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bulma's Foot Masseur » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 am

dragon boss z wrote:2. Nobody can fly in the ToP stage unless they have wings


Oh yeah, you're right. I guess I'm just surprised that Roshi is even doing what he's doing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby JazzMazz » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 am

Bullza wrote:So Jiren isn'tthe mortal who even a God of Destruction can't beat?

If Quitela is the who one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling then shouldn't that mortal be on the Universe 4 Team?

If that was actually the case then it'd have to be Damom. Are they hiding him for a particular reason? There isn't gonna be some plot twist where Damom is gonna end up the big bad instead of Jiren is there?

Thats for the manga. The anime is handling it a lot differently and that probably won't be the case.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:04 am

Can't edit the post, but upon further reflection I'm actually thinking that Yo! is the biggest advocate for Gotenks vs. Goku in general. This is the gist of it:

If we go by, Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return! then Base Gotenks is stronger than Final Form Freeza from Namek. Abo and Cado fused should be Freeza level. That means together, they were stronger than Goku's base form. If Gotenks at base is Freeza level, and Beerus said Goku couldn't have defeated Frieza in his base, that means Gotenks > Goku. You may try to question the special's place as canon, but BoG (movie) actually referenced Tarble for the sixth Saiyan for the ritua


Now, this more or less follows some added assumptions, but if we go further than that they become very legitimate.
If Abo and Kado alone aren't around final form Freeza and just First Form Freeza -- which would make much more sense, Aka should be in-between Goku and Final Form at bare minimum (Goku turns Super Saiyan to destroy the ball and defeat Aka); base Gotenks, however, also stomps Aka in base - in the manga he just uses his Ghost Kamikaze Attack - and also mocks his power when in base form, stating that he's terribly weak in both iterations.

In short, by combining the general consensus of BOG/ Super and Yo! you'd probably get something like this:

First Form Freeza ~ Abo ~ Kado < Goten ~ Trunks (after they stop fighting carelessly in the anime, right off the bat in the manga) < Base Goku (Yo!) < Base Goku (BOG?) ~ Aka ~ Final Form Freeza < Base Gotenks (Yo!; "You're not much, old man")

So yeah, the claim Yo! supposedly reinforced Goku > Gotenks looks really questionable; at best it reinforces the exact contrary if we want to take it in conjuction with BOG/Super. Of course, we can start by claiming Gotenks is bragging, but in the anime he does make mincemeat of Aka with or without his Super Saiyan form, so I don't see why anyone would think he doesn't have a point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Legion » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:50 am

Pretty sure that the mortal stronger than the Gods will be the same in both anime and manga. Something like this can't be different, unless is not another toei thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:29 am

Bullza wrote:So Jiren isn'tthe mortal who even a God of Destruction can't beat?

If Quitela is the who one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling then shouldn't that mortal be on the Universe 4 Team?

If that was actually the case then it'd have to be Damom. Are they hiding him for a particular reason? There isn't gonna be some plot twist where Damom is gonna end up the big bad instead of Jiren is there?

The implication is that Quitela (assuming the revelation is the same for the anime) can't defeat this mortal. But it doesn't have to mean he/she belongs to Quitela's universe. Whis is just comparing them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:53 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Bullza wrote:So Jiren isn'tthe mortal who even a God of Destruction can't beat?

If Quitela is the who one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling then shouldn't that mortal be on the Universe 4 Team?

If that was actually the case then it'd have to be Damom. Are they hiding him for a particular reason? There isn't gonna be some plot twist where Damom is gonna end up the big bad instead of Jiren is there?

The implication is that Quitela (assuming the revelation is the same for the anime) can't defeat this mortal. But it doesn't have to mean he/she belongs to Quitela's universe. Whis is just comparing them.


Oh yeah! Mortals are free to move from Universe to Universe and can even join other teams for the Tournament of Power.

If one REALLY wants to stretch it, they could say that Jiren was from Universe 4 a long time ago and was stronger than Quitela, but he moved to Universe 11 and eventually became a Pride Trooper. It'd be one possible way to explain why his demeanour is so........ "different" from that of his fellow Pride Troopers. Of course, this idea is only if you REALLY want to stick to your headcanon that Jiren is still the mortal above a God of Destruction.

It could just as easily be that this mortal simply doesn't care about the Tournament of Power, or is lazy, or whatever else. He/she/squid's stronger than Quitela, the heck is he gonna do about it? Exactly, NOTHING!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby SuperDragoon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:34 am

Such as?
[list][*]Goku outright tanking a charged blast of one of the strongest techniques of Piccolo
[*]Base Gohan (post unlocking Mystic) and Base goku are equals, and Base Gohan in current battle Royal appears to be better off than Piccolo.
[*]Tagoma
[*]Goku wasn't even serious when sparring against fit buu, who he called superior to fat buu


Such as Piccolo being vastly superior to Super Saiyan Gohan who is superior to base Goku who transforms into a Super Saiyan to face him, instead of suppressing his base form (with an extreme suppression, in fact, supposing he can beat the Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks of the Buu arc by lifting a finger or so).

The idea that he would go Super Saiyan and then suppress his Super Saiyan form to below base levels is filmsy to say the least. All the other instances have been throughly proven to be 100% inconclusive and much easier to justify in this very thread countless times, either by me or other users; I'm absolutely not gonna go through them again. They can all be justified by characters (Goku or whoever is fighting) suppressing themselves or not seriously trying to hurt each other, unlike Goku vs. Gohan from before Gohan re-trains, obviously, which would makes Goku simply act in an incomprehensible fashion for the viewer or just "incomprehensibly" in general. Base Gohan has also done virtually nothing which would put him above Piccolo in the tournament, so I don't understand what should be the reference here.


Considering the fact that Base Goku was capable of blocking a charged blast from Piccolo, something you conveniently ignored, then yes there is evidence that Goku>Piccolo.

And on the Base Saiyan argument, every argument against Base Saiyans being high (above SSJ3 Gotenks at least) I've seen involves a lot of head canon or special pleading. The show has made it very obvious that the base saiyan's are much, much more powerful than they were in Z. Even ignoring the fact that Goku's Base is more powerful than BOG saga SSG Goku, the Copy Vegeta fight should have made it obvious. There was no reason to believe Gotenks got any weaker, or that there were two bases, or that Copy Vegeta was any stronger than regular Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:42 am

SuperDragoon wrote:
Such as?
[list][*]Goku outright tanking a charged blast of one of the strongest techniques of Piccolo
[*]Base Gohan (post unlocking Mystic) and Base goku are equals, and Base Gohan in current battle Royal appears to be better off than Piccolo.
[*]Tagoma
[*]Goku wasn't even serious when sparring against fit buu, who he called superior to fat buu


Such as Piccolo being vastly superior to Super Saiyan Gohan who is superior to base Goku who transforms into a Super Saiyan to face him, instead of suppressing his base form (with an extreme suppression, in fact, supposing he can beat the Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks of the Buu arc by lifting a finger or so).

The idea that he would go Super Saiyan and then suppress his Super Saiyan form to below base levels is filmsy to say the least. All the other instances have been throughly proven to be 100% inconclusive and much easier to justify in this very thread countless times, either by me or other users; I'm absolutely not gonna go through them again. They can all be justified by characters (Goku or whoever is fighting) suppressing themselves or not seriously trying to hurt each other, unlike Goku vs. Gohan from before Gohan re-trains, obviously, which would makes Goku simply act in an incomprehensible fashion for the viewer or just "incomprehensibly" in general. Base Gohan has also done virtually nothing which would put him above Piccolo in the tournament, so I don't understand what should be the reference here.


Considering the fact that Base Goku was capable of blocking a charged blast from Piccolo, something you conveniently ignored, then yes there is evidence that Goku>Piccolo.

And on the Base Saiyan argument, every argument against Base Saiyans being high (above SSJ3 Gotenks at least) I've seen involves a lot of head canon or special pleading. The show has made it very obvious that the base saiyan's are much, much more powerful than they were in Z. Even ignoring the fact that Goku's Base is more powerful than BOG saga SSG Goku, the Copy Vegeta fight should have made it obvious. There was no reason to believe Gotenks got any weaker, or that there were two bases, or that Copy Vegeta was any stronger than regular Vegeta.


First off I didn't "ignore" anything, much less "conveniently", as I had originally stated that there was simply more evidence in favor of the opposing argument. Secondly, I've explained my rationale as to why Gohan vs. Goku would normally take precedence to me in very clear terms in the post above. Since this thread has this rather serious problem - especially for its habitues - of regurgitating the exact same arguments every dozen of pages (and usually with some pretense of total conclusiveness on this or that issue), I'm just avoiding the nth repetition when trying to contextualize Goku's supposed feat against Piccolo in the mock fight (which not only wasn't even referenced in the post I was quoting, but was also at least indirectly addressed in the very post you quoted).

Thirdly, following your own premises, one could pretty much be able to make an exact same argument: "Goku's apparent inability to beat opponents vastly inferior to Good Buu when he should be far above the SS3 Gotenks we knew from the Buu arc makes the theory he's really above him headcanon"; a very similar conjuction applies to Goku turning Super Saiyan to handle Gohan in the first place, however. I wouldn't exactly venture towards the usual "you're all in denial" undertone, since it's even technically easier to turn it the other way around.

By the way, I'm fairly sure not even "Beyond God" Goku from ROF is stated to possess power superior to that of the Super Saiyan God seen in BOG. Super Saiyan Goku is equal to God or a little weaker than that when he's fighting Beerus, and his regular form should be 1/50 of that.
If you're using some statement from ROF, chances are you're using one of the wrong translations that has Krillin says Goku's using "more power" - or a similar spiel - in base than what he did against Beerus (whilst Krillin actually says that he gets a sense of "real dread" from the fight and nothing more).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:06 pm

It was worded in a sorta weird way in the anime.

Whis says that "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat".

Which makes it sound like in general there isn't any God of Destruction that could beat him. Then he said "that God of Destruction" as if he was singling out a specific God of Destruction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:31 pm

Bullza wrote:It was worded in a sorta weird way in the anime.

Whis says that "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat".

Which makes it sound like in general there isn't any God of Destruction that could beat him. Then he said "that God of Destruction" as if he was singling out a specific God of Destruction.

Precisely. I think his intent is to warn the team there is someone out there much stronger than Beerus, and it's possible there might have other incredible fighters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Doctor. » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:05 pm

You shouldn't mix manga continuity with the anime continuity. For all we know, Toriyama wrote "One of the GoDs beat Beerus in an arm-wrestle" and Toei implied Vermoud to hype Jiren and Toyotaro wrote it as Quitela for comedic purposes. Until the line about a mortal being stronger than a GoD is in the manga, you're all jumping the gun.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Zamasu55 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:11 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:Oh you guys a gonna love this...



I kind of thought it would be him, but this begs the question. Is the fighter stronger than a god on the universe 4 team? If he is it is either one of the bugs, the fat girl, or the little blue guy, and tbh I don't really want any of them to be the character stronger than a GoD.

The manga has its own canon. It's a completely different thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Zamasu55 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:13 pm

Legion wrote:Pretty sure that the mortal stronger than the Gods will be the same in both anime and manga. Something like this can't be different, unless is not another toei thing.

People said the same about the Buu fight. "They have to make him do something before he falls asleep", and...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Polyphase Avatron » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:53 pm

So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:57 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?


Probably a bunch of them if they were to hold him down and put a blast through his eye socket and blow his brains out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Polyphase Avatron » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:08 pm

Bullza wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?


Probably a bunch of them if they were to hold him down and put a blast through his eye socket and blow his brains out.


I would figure his defense covers his eyes as well...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:12 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:Oh you guys a gonna love this...



I kind of thought it would be him, but this begs the question. Is the fighter stronger than a god on the universe 4 team? If he is it is either one of the bugs, the fat girl, or the little blue guy, and tbh I don't really want any of them to be the character stronger than a GoD.

The manga has its own canon. It's a completely different thing.


So you think it's just a coincidence Beerus was beaten in an arm wrestle in both canons? Bot versions go off of Toriyama's notes. I'm not saying the fighter is from universe 4, but it does mean it could be.


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