LowRyder2005 wrote:Which clearly begs the question: if you think it's baseless what's your aim here in keeping this conversation up? Wouldn't a normal person say "oh, I think it's baseless, but to each their own"? I mean, at least that's what I would do. At least that's what I factually did many posts ago by now.
I'm trying to figure out exactly where you are coming from, unlike you're “evidence” which relies heavily on assumptions and speculation that can't be proven, mines relies just on facts demonstrated form the series proper, that's a big difference between what you and I are doing.
Again, exactly my point above.
No, its not, far from it and it is this prime example of your hard headed stubborn contrarian approach that's difficult to take seriously. Your argument *pause*...non-existing argument is based on a unsubstantial opinion, not facts. The non-ambiguous and crystal clear narrative has Vegeta and Cabba equally matched, your mere assumptions does not change this. Vegeta has zero reason to lie here and even mentioned earlier he won't hold back against Cabba, regardless of your opinion about Cabba's stamina Vegeta takes all of this into consideration and still shows and mentions they are equally matched in their base form, the narrative then shows SSJ Vegeta in the manga and anime stronger than SSJ Caba despite them being equal in their normal forms, this is not debatable.
The above clearly shows there are no strict constant multipliers for all Saiyans across the board. I mentioned before there was implications of this in the Buu Saga but you callously brushed it off with a pompous jack ass attitude as mere conjecture while pretending to be open minded. I'll cut to the main point from the Buu Saga, Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 forms are stated to be far stronger than Teen Gohan's SSJ2, skip forward to the Z-sword and both Goku and Gohan mention the Z-sword is incredibly heavy and visibly have trouble wielding it in their normal forms, thus their base forms are more or less at a similar level with each other, yet Goku's SSJ2 has a far bigger boost than Gohan's SSJ2.
Skip to the Black arc and Future Trunks mentions "I was never satisfied with the power this form (SSJ2) yields". Trunks proceeds to power up his SSJ2 form further to which Vegeta mentions "He powered up to the same strength as Kakarot's SSJ3 without transforming." If that isn't outright clarification for you then I don't know what to say other than you're simply in denial at this point.
Finally, the narrative has Goku and Vegeta more or less equal to each other in their base forms during any of their training/sparring matches since the start of the U6 arc all the way up to the start of Goku Black arc, yet his SSJ2 has far bigger boost than Trunks' SSJ2 with Vegeta's SSJ2 being far stronger than Goku's SSJ3 since the BoGs arc. So there you have it, multiple characters with greatly varying boosts within the same SSJ form(s) among themselves.
I hope I don't have to deal with your opinion about “ strict multipliers” written by different third parties that were never stated or said to exist in the series to begin with from this point on.
Again, exactly my point above. By the way, I also think Gohan, Goten and Trunks all regressed a lot in Super; no idea what the Buu saga has to do with this.
Again, not really. Now, I don't mind you thinking Gohan has regressed a lot in Super since its outright stated, however, nothing of that nature is stated for Goten/Trunks which would be mere conjecture and assumptions on your part since you have zero concrete proof they have regressed at all.
Assuming a farmer wouldn't put Piccolo Daimao in a bearhug, he then obviously let Tupper strangle him for thirty seconds of banter? Your idea of "dropping your guard = let yourself get punched for seconds or minutes" is absolutely bizarre.
Hey, not my logic, its DBS, also, Its stated by Vegeta that Goku has a bad habit of never going all out from the start by and Kuririn recently mentioned Goku tests his power against others in weaker states instead of going to higher states like SSJB to bring out said opponents full power. Considering Goku did not fall over to his knees, nor transform to a higher state to handle Tupper's increasing mass along to which he immediately showed no signs of being tired or strained after 18 gets Tupper off of him means Goku was no where near his theoretical max in base form so I wouldn't use that scene as proof of 18 > base Goku.
Finally an acceptably open-minded statement? What happened? I was expecting a "this is totally wrong because *whatever idea I have on the subject*".
I'll humor you an address this patronizing haughty response. What happened is that none of the characters can be properly compared to each other due to a lack of information and constantly changing scaling between them from episode to episode. Well...at least until last weeks episode that showed base Vegeta having the advantage against Ribrianne and nearly winning if not for her friend's intervention complete with her doubting her power level to win the tournament. That's a far cry from her getting suckershotted by SSJB Goku, impressing SSJ Vegeta and matching 17 earlier on.
... Why should I? Goku casually punching a farmer with full strength would probably kill the guy even in early Dragon Ball. And why shouldn't Mr. Buu suppress himself, again, assuming he was normally far above base Goku? I mean, do you think Krillin sparring with base Goku at the end of GT proves Krillin is not that much behind base Goku? I'm seriously falling way behind with pretty much anything you're saying by now.
Those are some extreme examples there and why are you bringing up GT? Anyway, the point with base Goku vs. Mr. Buu was that base Goku was matching the speed and strength of Mr. Buu that was higher than his full power shown in the tournament, his previous power level exceeds Piccolo/SSJ2 Gohan and giving that even the narrator has the current 10 fighters as the strongest representatives of U7 then yeah... base Goku > Mr. Buu despite merely testing him.
Still, I absolutely love this "off guard" thing which makes fighters fight like crap for minutes.
You mean like how Goku has been consistently for this whole tournament, lol.
What...? Again?
Base Goku = base Future Trunks > Kid SSJ Trunks = SSJ Gohan = suppressed SSJ Goku. Its to show being in one form (SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan) fighting lower than his previous form like SSJ Vegeta (apparently fighting lower than his base form against Ribrianne as of last week), SSJB Goku vs. Kuririn or SSJB Goku vs. Kale for example does not mean it was necessary to do so.
... LOL, then pray tell, what were you actually saying?
To be frank, I have no recollection of this, but it could easily have to do with Gohan being affected by the poison and unable. Or Gohan being suppressed, since his Super Saiyan should be far above Lavenda. In fact, if Gohan's Super Saiyan isn't that much above it looks even more like an indicator that his regular Super Saiyan would make short work of Lavenda.
Lets take this from the start, before the match begins Gohan tells Goku to watch his battle to see how strong he has become now since he's been training to get back in shape, ergo, Gohan is not holding back and has zero reason to. This is reconfirmed when initially Gohan was thinking about taking it slowly, but then Goku reminds him there's no need to and go all-out against Lavenda, don't hold anything back to which Gohan agrees with and will do. The match begins and base Gohan and Lavenda are more or less on par with each other.
So good, so far, then Gohan gets blinded, after being temporaily disoriented, he gathers his bearings and uses his enhances senses from being blind to kick Lavenda's ass as you say to which is where I said he fought better, not stronger. Do you agree Gohan is fighting better compared to the evenish fight he had earlier with Lavenda when not blinded?
Okay, continuing, Lavenda starts attacking from a distance which starts overwhelming Gohan to wish he states “Not yet, I haven't fully unleashed my power yet.” Gohan turns SSJ, I hope you know what the term fully unleashed means, its the opposite of suppression/holding back, after powering up to full in SSJ Lavenda mentions his power only increased by a small amount alone with merely shining, yet he still can't sense his presence.
After showing he can now “See” through the aura from his SSJ as a radar he rushes and attacks Lavenda fiercely like he did at the very start of the battle with both attacking, evading, and blocking about the same until the poison spreads rapidly through Gohan causing him to be in pain.
Now, if SSJ is a 50x boost instead of a the small boost it was stated to be in this fight shouldn't Gohan oneshot Lavenda instantly, even in a suppressed state of SSJ since these same characters have one-shotted characters when the difference was less than 2-3x between them? Considering Lavenda still can't kill or overpower base Gohan who's fending and blocking all his attacks before powering up to SSJ again and immediately getting into a dead even fight exchange complete with dead even beam duel before the poison spreads and causes Gohan to lost focus due to being in pain I'm going to have to disagree SSJ is a 50x during this fight, if it was Lavenda should have decimated base Gohan who would be 50x weaker than the all-out SSJ Gohan desperately trying to beat Lavenda before the poison kills him.
Too bad the poison did work instantly: Lavenda literally asks base Gohan if he likes his poison when he's beating him up and Ro tells Gohan he should "writhe in pain" because of it. So, again, you're completely off the mark.
1. Not really considering the same base Gohan after gathering his bearings was calmly sensing Lavenda's movement and ended up kicking his ass as you say confusing Roh and Lavenda greatly. That would be kind of hard to accomplish writhing in pain and agony wouldn't you say? Obviously, he wasn't in that much pain as thought since he's dismissing all of Lavenda's advance and attacks without writhing in pain in a cool calm demeanor and state. 2. Lavenda himself after that point states the poison gradually affects and rots his body. I hope you know what gradual mean, it means slowly/little/bit by bit, the exact opposite of instant.
You're really livid, aren't you?
No more than you I imagine.
