Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

Her attacks were stated to be a threat to UI goku tho

Kefla could not even touch Goku with the UI, proving to be much weaker than him.

And even Ki attacks like Kienzan and Kikoho have already inflicted damage on more powerful characters. Kefla lasers are similar to this type of technique

[dragon boss z]

1. Implying the Spirit Bomb was below Kaioken SSB Goku?
2. Even though SSG Goku is capable of destroying a universe and Kefla>>>>SSG Goku?
3. Implying Piccolo is wrong....somehow? He's never been the one to misinterpret someone's power like you're implying.

You are being biased and intellectually dishonest by downplaying a character you don't like.

1. He said SSB Kaioken Goku + the spirit bomb. Which means Goku + spirit bomb is more than just the spirit bomb.

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

It was stated multiple times ssjg goku and beerus were stated to be capable of destroying the universe feats and statements supported so don't see the point of downplaying it m8

It was stated it was from a chain reaction. Even Buuhan almost destroyed the universe by setting it off balance and he was at max wank like galaxy level. It was also stated Beerus couldn't survive the universe beeing destroyed which would make no sense if he was really hundreds of times universe level. Plus we even have one of the dragon ball super writers saying SSB Goku wasn't even universe level yet. There power is strong enough to affect the universe, but there is no proof anyone under GoD level is truly universe level, or at the very least can one shot a universe. We also have Goku and Vegeta marveling at the power to destroy a universe when Zeno does it, and Kefla says she feels like she can one shot a universe in ssj2, which is far stronger than SSG Goku, so if SSG Goku could easily one shot a universe at this point then that line from her makes no sense.

Imo it may go something like this
Frieza: large planet level
Cell: solar system level
Buu: multi solar system level
SSG: galaxy level (can destroy destroy the universe in a short amount of time)
SSB: multi galaxy level
SSB kk x20: galaxy cluster level
UI Goku: universe level

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

The narrator explicitly stated that SSJG-absorbed SSJ Goku and suppressed Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe.

https://gfycat.com/GregariousMadAnnelid

I think that might of been temporary for just that fight, since if Goku could of powered up to ssj3 to make himself to get 8x stronger he would of, it would also mean after losing god power he got 8x stronger which makes no sense. If Goku permanently retained the power of SSG he should have to go ssj3 to attain it.

I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot.

Maybe not in one shot, but he certainly has the power to destroy the universe after two or three shots as evidenced by his clashes against Beerus. In fact, he specifically had to match Beerus' strength output to cancel it out and prevent this from happening, so we can't say it was only because of Beerus that the universe was threatened (especially since the characters also attributed this to SSG Goku's power).

These characters are far above galaxy level.

I agree they are probably far above galaxy level, at least int he anime, however in the manga fused Zamasu pretty much said he was galaxy level.

[SuperDragoon]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

The problem is you're blatently ignoring context. Why do they explicitly need to mention that she got to their level when events in the episode show it? Piccolo was blatantly referring to Ultra Instinct Goku in his statement. He wouldn't be as shocked as he was if she simply got above a tired Kaioken x2 Goku. Again, Whis' statement was blatantly about strength. SSJ1 Kefla is around the level of the Spirit Bomb used on Jiren. No ifs ands or buts. That confirms that she was not at full power fighting Kaioken Goku who certainly was using above a x2 multiplier.

Kefla is objectively far above the level you are portraying her as.

[SuperDragoon]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

Her attacks were stated to be a threat to UI goku tho

Kefla could not even touch Goku with the UI, proving to be much weaker than him.

And even Ki attacks like Kienzan and Kikoho have already inflicted damage on more powerful characters. Kefla lasers are similar to this type of technique

More conjecture from you. Nothing implied her attack was anything like the Destructo Disc or Tri-Beam.

[Marlowe89]

I agree they are probably far above galaxy level, at least int he anime, however in the manga fused Zamasu pretty much said he was galaxy level.

It's the same in both versions -- Elder Kai also mentioned in the manga that Beerus and SSG Goku's clashes were about to destroy the entire universe if they'd continued as well. Fused Zamasu didn't say that his maximum power output was only galaxy level per se, he just threatened to destroy their galaxy which carries an entirely different connotation.

The strength of a whole galaxy is perhaps something we would have seen from the likes of GT, but it's clear that Super operates on an entirely different, much larger scale.

[pacz360]

1. He said SSB Kaioken Goku + the spirit bomb. Which means Goku + spirit bomb is more than just the spirit bomb.

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

It was stated multiple times ssjg goku and beerus were stated to be capable of destroying the universe feats and statements supported so don't see the point of downplaying it m8

It was stated it was from a chain reaction. Even Buuhan almost destroyed the universe by setting it off balance and he was at max wank like galaxy level. It was also stated Beerus couldn't survive the universe beeing destroyed which would make no sense if he was really hundreds of times universe level. Plus we even have one of the dragon ball super writers saying SSB Goku wasn't even universe level yet. There power is strong enough to affect the universe, but there is no proof anyone under GoD level is truly universe level, or at the very least can one shot a universe. We also have Goku and Vegeta marveling at the power to destroy a universe when Zeno does it, and Kefla says she feels like she can one shot a universe in ssj2, which is far stronger than SSG Goku, so if SSG Goku could easily one shot a universe at this point then that line from her makes no sense.

Imo it may go something like this
Frieza: large planet level
Cell: solar system level
Buu: multi solar system level
SSG: galaxy level (can destroy destroy the universe in a short amount of time)
SSB: multi galaxy level
SSB kk x20: galaxy cluster level
UI Goku: universe level

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

The narrator explicitly stated that SSJG-absorbed SSJ Goku and suppressed Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe.

https://gfycat.com/GregariousMadAnnelid

I think that might of been temporary for just that fight, since if Goku could of powered up to ssj3 to make himself to get 8x stronger he would of, it would also mean after losing god power he got 8x stronger which makes no sense. If Goku permanently retained the power of SSG he should have to go ssj3 to attain it.

I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot.

Maybe not in one shot, but he certainly has the power to destroy the universe after two or three shots as evidenced by his clashes against Beerus. In fact, he specifically had to match Beerus' strength output to cancel it out and prevent this from happening, so we can't say it was only because of Beerus that the universe was threatened (especially since the characters also attributed this to SSG Goku's power).

These characters are far above galaxy level.

I agree they are probably far above galaxy level, at least int he anime, however in the manga fused Zamasu pretty much said he was galaxy level.

Manga zamasu never stated he was galaxy level as if he was only capable of it he said he'll wipe goku out along with it
It wasn't no chain reaction bullshit like buuhan who had to collapse dimensions for it to happened
It was stated by whis,elder kai and the narrator that both of them were bringing power capable of destroying the universe none mention some chain reaction stuff

[pacz360]

I agree they are probably far above galaxy level, at least int he anime, however in the manga fused Zamasu pretty much said he was galaxy level.

It's the same in both versions -- Elder Kai also mentioned in the manga that Beerus and SSG Goku's clashes were about to destroy the entire universe if they'd continued as well. Fused Zamasu didn't say that his maximum power output was only galaxy level per se, he just threatened to destroy their galaxy which carries an entirely different connotation.

Pretty much this

[dragon boss z]

I agree they are probably far above galaxy level, at least int he anime, however in the manga fused Zamasu pretty much said he was galaxy level.

It's the same in both versions -- Elder Kai also mentioned in the manga that Beerus and SSG Goku's clashes were about to destroy the entire universe if they'd continued as well. Fused Zamasu didn't say that his maximum power output was only galaxy level per se, he just threatened to destroy their galaxy which carries an entirely different connotation.

The elder Kai said the battle threatened to destroy the universe, which could mean a few things. It's like saying a nuclear war could destroy the planet, even though it wouldn't literally destroy the planet, just wreck the surface. At why else would Toyotaro have Zamasu say he would destroy the entire galaxy if not for a power reference? Zamasu was damaged and tired and that may not of been his max, but galaxy busting still must be impressive for people of their level, and fused Zamasu really wasn't that much above SSB Goku either, while in the anime he was close to SSB Vegito. There is also the possibility that the dragon ball universe is much smaller than our own. Super has confirmed that there are only 28 planets with mortals on them, which sounds pretty stupid considering I feel like we've seen almost that many already plus many different kinds of aliens from the Frieza force and galactic patrol and if their universe was really the size of ours I definitely don't see how that would be the case. Also Frieza's force controlled a good portion of the universe and their force really wasn't even that big. So being universe level in dragon ball may be less impressive than it is in real life.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

The problem is you're blatently ignoring context. Why do they explicitly need to mention that she got to their level when events in the episode show it? Piccolo was blatantly referring to Ultra Instinct Goku in his statement. He wouldn't be as shocked as he was if she simply got above a tired Kaioken x2 Goku. Again, Whis' statement was blatantly about strength. SSJ1 Kefla is around the level of the Spirit Bomb used on Jiren. No ifs ands or buts. That confirms that she was not at full power fighting Kaioken Goku who certainly was using above a x2 multiplier.

Kefla is objectively far above the level you are portraying her as.

Of course they need to mention that Kefla has reached the level of the MOST POWERFUL warriors of the tournament and that she is at the level of the GoDs. Piccolo's speech has made NOTHING clear, you're pushing too hard. He did not directly quote the UI, he just said that Kefla COULD have surpassed Goku's previous level (this is extremely implicit, but Goku was using a lot of power a short time ago and Kefla was having difficulty).

And of course Piccolo would be surprised. Kefla's arms trembled after taking only one punch from the TIRED Blue Kaioken. Seeing her overcome this power is amazing. Whis talks about power only if you ignore the context of the scene in which he quotes shortly after Kefla forced Goku to use the UI as well as Genki Dama). If Kefla is level Genki Dama, Goku SSB KK is also because he was stronger than Kefla SSJ

Her attacks were stated to be a threat to UI goku tho

Kefla could not even touch Goku with the UI, proving to be much weaker than him.

And even Ki attacks like Kienzan and Kikoho have already inflicted damage on more powerful characters. Kefla lasers are similar to this type of technique

More conjecture from you. Nothing implied her attack was anything like the Destructo Disc or Tri-Beam.

This is not necessary. Kefla was firing concentrated lasers, which were extremely sharp and Kefla was still desperate. Anyway, that does not mean NOTHING, Kefla proved infinitely weaker than Goku UI. We have several examples in the series of Ki attacks used by weaker characters that have effect on stronger characters

[dragon boss z]

Manga zamasu never stated he was galaxy level as if he was only capable of it he said he'll wipe goku out along with it

From a writing stand point it only makes sense to use that line as a power gauge. Zamasu was clearly trying to boast about his powers. It's not like he said he would destroy him along with the earth, or even the solar system, why would Toyotaro specifically say galaxy if not to show us how strong he was?

It wasn't no chain reaction bullshit like buuhan who had to collapse dimensions for it to happened.
It was stated by whis,elder kai and the narrator that both of them were bringing power capable of destroying the universe none mention some chain reaction stuff

Yes it was. The elder Kai actually said the words "chain reaction" at least in the funimation dub. I can't remember if he said those exact words in the sub. And even if he didn't say it, it was stated the shockwaves got stronger as they moved out, which makes no sense to begin with.

[Marlowe89]

At why else would Toyotaro have Zamasu say he would destroy the entire galaxy if not for a power reference?

Because destroying the universe would completely go against Zamasu's interests and goals. He wasn't interested in obliterating the universe, he specifically wanted to cleanse it of mortal life instead. He threatened Goku's galaxy as a last resort because he was at a boiling point, deemed them a major threat and wanted to ensure their erasure by any means necessary. It might have been "overkill", but I really don't think there's any more to it than that.

Narratively, the whole point of Elder Kai's statement was obviously to provide an indication of Super Saiyan God's strength. There's no reason not to take this dialogue at face value; he literally said that they had the power to destroy the universe and the entire authorial purpose was to showcase to the reader the scale that we're operating at for this brand new realm of power.

It's all pretty simple. The lower end of the "Realm of the Gods" can destroy the universe after just two or three shots, whereas the higher end can destroy it in one. Galaxy level as a maximum endpoint is pretty damn irrelevant in comparison.

[dragon boss z]

Because destroying the universe would completely go against Zamasu's interests and goals.

So would destroying the galaxy, since destroying the planet would work fine as Frieza has shown in RoF. And right before he said he would destroy the galaxy he said he was through with this universe, soooo I don't think what you are saying is the case.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And on top of that when Zamasu charges up to destroy the galaxy Trunks was amazed at that amount of power.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He wasn't interested in obliterating the universe, he specifically wanted to cleanse it of mortal life instead. He threatened Goku's galaxy as a last resort because he was at a boiling point, deemed them a major threat and wanted to ensure their erasure by any means necessary. It might have been "overkill", but I really don't think there's any more to it than that.

I really don't see why Goku would care that much about the galaxy and there was no mention of Goku being worried about the galaxy and he said he was through with the universe.

Narratively, the whole point of Elder Kai's statement was obviously to provide an indication of Super Saiyan God's strength. There's no reason not to take this dialogue at face value; he literally said that they had the power to destroy the universe and the entire authorial purpose was to showcase to the reader the scale that we're operating at for this brand new realm of power.

It's all pretty simple. The lower end of the "Realm of the Gods" can destroy the universe after just two or three shots, whereas the higher end can destroy it in one. Galaxy level as a maximum endpoint is pretty damn irrelevant in comparison.

The thing is the elder kai never once said that Goku could one shot the universe, he just said the power is a threat to the universe and I'm pretty sure he said something extremely similar when they fought Buu. And he never said they would destroy the universe in a few shots in the manga, and you can't just say they have the exact same level of power, especially when Goku never absorbed god ki in the manga and Trunks never went SSR.
Also in the anime Elder Kai said Beerus can't survive a galaxy bust, so if you want to take his words at 100% face value Beerus' durability is less than universe level, which doesn't make sense if SSG is universe level.

[Marlowe89]

So would destroying the galaxy, since destroying the planet would work fine as Frieza has shown in RoF. And right before he said he would destroy the galaxy he said he was through with this universe, soooo I don't think what you are saying is the case.

Viz's translation (a much more reliable source than Mangastream) makes no mention of Zamasu being through with the "universe" -- the colloquially more vague "cosmos" was used in its place. Destroying the galaxy wouldn't go against Zamasu's ideals at all if he's trying to keep the universe as a whole intact for his own purposes. Again, this was a last-ditch effort on his part to wipe out as wide of a radius within Goku's vicinity as he deemed necessary in his desperate state of mind.

I really don't see why Goku would care that much about the galaxy and there was no mention of Goku being worried about the galaxy and he said he was through with the universe.

I never said or implied that.

And he never said they would destroy the universe in a few shots in the manga

He said they'd destroy the universe "at this rate" after just one impact that created a shockwave that wiped out planets and resonated all the way to the Kaioshin realm. There's no reason that this would suddenly be completely different in the manga as opposed to the anime when both mediums carry the exact same overall connotation, i.e. they were at a level of power that was threatening the entire universe. Let's not grasp at straws here. The whole point was a demonstration of that realm of strength.

[avasatu]

Going to use the lingo from vsbattles:

As things stand after 116, my impression is:

Base Goku and his yellow SSJ Forms: (finite) Universal, with base Goku being ~ extremely low end Universal

Base/SS Kafla, depleted SSG/SSB: extremely high end Universal

Full Power SSG, SSB, Initial SS2 Kafla: Infinite 3D

'Final Weapon' SS2 Kafla, UI Omen: '3D Low 4D '

Empowered UI Omen (from 116): Low 4D

I'm going to assume that Kafla felt she could destroy the World of Void, rather than just "a universe," or else it makes no real sense, given that Goku was ultra low end Universal when he fought Beerus.

[buutenks]

Seems maxed out Kefla is above the spirit bomb Goku used vs Jiren. Since Whis states Kefla has that much power, then a char says Kefla's ki is getting even bigger.

I still don't see why Hit had to, he didn't had the power of Kefla, but he definitely had the techniques to be her superior, considering Hit did better vs Jiren than Goku's spirit bomb.

[ZombieVito]

So Whis said that SS Kefla matched the energy of the Genkidama that Goku bathe in.

Interesting.

[dragon boss z]

Viz's translation (a much more reliable source than Mangastream) makes no mention of Zamasu being through with the "universe" -- the colloquially more vague "cosmos" was used in its place. Destroying the galaxy wouldn't go against Zamasu's ideals at all if he's trying to keep the universe as a whole intact for his own purposes. Again, this was a last-ditch effort on his part to wipe out as wide of a radius within Goku's vicinity as he deemed necessary in his desperate state of mind.

cos·mos1
ˈkäzməs,ˈkäzˌmōs,ˈkäzˌmäs/Submit
noun
the universe seen as a well-ordered whole.

I never said or implied that.

You said he was threatening Goku's galaxy. Usually when you say something like that is because they care about it, like saying he threatened Goku's family because Goku cares about his family.

He said they'd destroy the universe "at this rate" after just one impact that created a shockwave that wiped out planets and resonated all the way to the Kaioshin realm. There's no reason that this would suddenly be completely different in the manga as opposed to the anime when both mediums carry the exact same overall connotation, i.e. they were at a level of power that was threatening the entire universe. Let's not grasp at straws here. The whole point was a demonstration of that realm of strength.

The anime tends to hype up certain things and some things are made up by them. Like Trunks and future Zamasu fighting on god levels when they were clearly presented as Buu saga tier in the manga. You can't just say the anime and the manga are the same in every regard when they clearly aren't. And the elder kai said Buu would destroy the universe at this rate as well so it doesn't prove much. I originally though SSG Goku may be universe level but it seems they really didn't go in that direction and it is highly possible the writers though SSG Goku was still going to be 60% of Beerus, hence Beerus saying he used 10% of his power on Vegeta. If Beerus is universe level it is logical to think that SSG Goku would be about universe level too if he was 60%, but they decided to retcon that later, so they may of also retconned SSG's power. He still can threaten the universe and can destroy it probably relatively quickly, but I definitely don't think initial SSG could of one shot it.

[Bullza]

I said it before in another thread but back in the Battle of Gods saga this here was stated to be capable of destroying the universe.



That super duper dense energy was only made through Super Saiyan God Goku's Kamehameha and Beerus' energy attack which would have been of a similar level otherwise he'd have immediately overwhelmed Goku.

So whoever can dish out more power than that alone would be a universe buster.

[AvatarReiko]

So was Kafla using LSSJ or ordinary SSJ before going SSJ2. I thought that LSSJ was supposed to be a bigger boost than than SSJ2 but it does not seem like that is the case.

[JazzMazz]

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.
[spoiler][/spoiler]